A Frame fines

[JamesFrance]

If you were to ask that on the YBW Liveaboard forum you would probably get the odd reply. I don't think the Chandlers are members here, but you never know.

[malc d]

crinklystarfish - 2011-10-02 8:13 PM

Whilst I'm between motorhomes I'm thinking of taking a break with a yacht trip off the coast of Kenya.

Has anyone on here been kidnapped by Somalian pirates?

I understand that the latest kidnapping in Kenya was from a building on land, not from a yacht, so I think I'll give Kenya a miss this year. :-(

[johnnerontheroad]

Now look what you have started http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/motorhome-chat/40337-frames-spain.html

 

Dave

[crinklystarfish]

Nearly 1500 hits now and no one has themselves actually been kidnapped? I think that proves that it's safe to sail about off the east African coast then. I had a feeling it was all hearsay.

[nomadicx2]

Hi Hymer1942,

 

Yes, 4 friends of ours (3 RV's + toads and 1 5er) were stoped and fined this last week.

 

Fines were e40 for each RV driver, the 5er was not challenged. If they had not paid within 20 days the fine was at the full amount of e80, so by paying on the spot they secured a 50% discount.

 

They were not instructed to part the toad from the RV!!!

 

BDG,

 

May I ask, as they have now been fined, and they have to return to the UK in a few months time, (they are expecting to be "pulled" again)

 

1) In your opinion, will the fine be the same, or higher?

 

2) Will these spot fines work there way back to DVLA and apply 3 points to the licence holder?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Nomadic

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

hymer1942 - 2011-10-02 4:01 PM

 

Brian, your missing it, that is the whole point, I did not get fined for the A Frame offence Why, and still up to now on here no one else has. And to be nasty and say I am a waste of space just because you dont agree with my thinking.????????????????? Barrie

 

Don't think I am missing it at all, though I fear you may be.

You admit that you got stopped in Spain for the A frame offence. That, at the time, was your visible offence, and was, on your own admission, why you were stopped. If that was not an offence in Spain, why do you think you were stopped? Wasn't for just driving a motorhome, was it?

Then, from your description, you contested the fine for that offence, went to the police station, and then accepted a fine for a seat belt offence you had apparently not committed. If you contested the A frame offence, why accept the seat belt fine for a fictitious charge? Because, I suspect, it carried a lower penalty than the A frame offence.

So, it seems to me that they were being kind to you by letting you off on a more minor offence, rather than your apparent assumption, that you won the argument over legality. Besides which, if you really think you won that argument, why would you now be worried at being stopped for the same offence again?

I think, if you were to re-read your own posts, you woud see what everyone else seems able to see: that the answer to your own question is there - in letters nine feet tall! :-)

And no, I wasn't being nasty, just taking alight hearted poke at a bloke who, having been stopped for an offence, asks if anyone else has experience of the same offence, because he doesn't quite believe it exists!

For what it is worth, I was speaking to an English motorhoming couple in Millau, two weeks back, who mentioned, in passing that friends of theirs had been stopped and fined for towing a car on an A frame this year while in Spain. However, since you wanted only direct experience, and not hearsay, I didn't mention it before.

The point, it seems to me, is what will you do if stopped by the Spanish police for towing with an A frame? Plead that you asked everyone on the MMM forum whether they had been stopped for that offence and no one had, so the offence can't exist and there is no fine to pay?

Personally, I don't much care what you do, and I shan't have to bear the consequences of your decision, whichever way you decide. So, why would I, or anyone else, bother replying? Just because we don't like the idea of anyone's trip being spoilt by them taking avoidable risks, not because we just enjoy having a "pop" at a total stranger. You, on the other hand, seem to know the answer you want, and regard anyone who doesn't provide it, as hostile.

Well, off you go, good luck, and have a nice trip, and I just hope the Spanish police are having a long siesta as you wend your way through their country! :-D

[Rayjsj]

The answer seems to be 'don't take a car on an A-frame to Spain' shame, My only question is why ?

If they are safe ? and no-one has questioned that they are safe, as safe as towing a caravan anyway and probably safer ? Lets hope we get the 'Law' gets Cleared up soon, and what REALLY counts their SAFETY forms the basis of their Legality, not what is, and isn't allowed in Spain. Ray

[onecal]

Hi,,,,More than Spain involved,,,,Ireland ,,,,Germany,,,,etc''''sad but that's the way thing are going,,,,regardless If was me our my friend ,,standing beside me ,,,it is happening,,,

Regards,

Brendan

[Guest peter]

Rayjsj - 2011-09-27 11:42 PM

 

MMMM ! I WAS thinking of coming to Portugal and Spain to follow the 'Peninsular War' trail in January/February, but my reaction to bullies whether in uniform or not is to totally ignore them and walk away (whether they have guns or not !) I don't react angrily... just walk or drive away AND i certainly don't obey them. SO, perhaps I shoudn't come Eh. I won't be towing an A-Frame But I will have British plates and in light of what you have said, will probably be a target for an 'easy buck'. Either that or carry an even BIGGER gun. >:-) Ray

 

(just my personal views on Spanish Police)

Quite agree Ray. But that's the whole problem with hispanic men, they all think they're rambo and all the women in the world are wanting to drop their knickers for the macho idiots.

[Derek Uzzell]

aultymer - 2011-09-30 9:46 PM

 

nowtelse2do - 2011-09-30 6:44 PM

 

Hi Brendon, I've nothing against them and I have never heard of an accident with them but until it becomes absolutely clear in law, I would only go down the trailer route. Cheer's

 

Dave

 

An admirable attitude.

 

I am one of the guys who are trying to get 'lifted' for using one to clear up the law for you.

 

The 'Spanish problem' will never concern me since I am unlikely to find the need to visit that place while friendly, less crime ridden places exist.

 

I'm intrigued by your reference to getting 'lifted'.

 

As you saying that there are a number of people currently attempting to somehow provoke the UK police into prosecuting them for A-frame towing so that the legality of the practice can be established in a court of law, please?

[terryW]

crinklystarfish - 2011-10-02 10:29 PM

 

Nearly 1500 hits now and no one has themselves actually been kidnapped? I think that proves that it's safe to sail about off the east African coast then. I had a feeling it was all hearsay.

 

1500 hits? probably the same 15 people returning to see if anything helpful comes out of the question!

[lennyhb]

I've been back at least 25 times just for a laugh. (lol)

[donna miller]

There are far too many 'opinions' and nowhere near enough 'facts' being posted on here. Unfortunately opinions and beliefs don't make for a good defence in court should you ever have the mispleasure of being taken there whether in Blighty or over the water..

The 'opinion' that " It's safe, so why isn't it legal is a prime example of people believing opinions are valid in a legal sense, unfortunately, a gun is 'safe', it's the people in charge of it that are not.

 

If Spain or any other country ban them, just because we are British, doesn't mean we can ignore their laws because it's 'legal' here, on the same lines as my previous example, it is legal in many US states to carry a gun, does that therefore mean that they can claim immunity to our law that states they are illegal? of course not.

 

My stance on this? I would use a trailer if I ever felt the need to take a car as well as a M/home abroad, we regularly take the motorbike on a trailer anyway, but that's irrelevant really, but if you want to use an A frame, feel free, it's none of my business or concern, just be careful and respect the laws of the country you are in, Isn't that what we demand from foreign visitors to our roads.

[stantheman]

As far as I know, the USA don't yet claim to be part of the European Community.

[Tony Jones]

Almost right Donna, but may I dare to clarify (without of course suggesting you might not be right!)?

 

IF it were ever proved conclusively that these things were legal in the UK, then a UK-registered vehicle SHOULD be allowed to use them throughout the EU.

 

But of course there are two snags in that sentence - the words in capitals!

 

No such ruling has ever been made in the UK, and as Brian says other EU countries won't take "silence as consent," so they're free to enforce their own laws.

And even if that were to happen, I suspect that most Brits, like me, don't try to argue with armed policemen in a foreign language. So in practice, what the cop says is illegal, IS illegal!!

 

Anyway, I'm, with the person way back up this thread, who pointed out that anyone who (regularly) wants to leave their accommodation on site & travel around by car, would be better off with a caravan!!

[donna miller]

stantheman - 2011-10-12 5:19 PM

 

As far as I know, the USA don't yet claim to be part of the European Community.

 

Groan....................It was merely an example, I couldn't off the top of my head think of a country within the EU where carrying guns was not illegal. *-) No doubt some encyclopedic poster will enlighten us before I google the answer.

 

 

 

Tony, I totally agree, especially the sections about the 'policemen with guns' and 'get a caravan'

[stantheman]

Dear Donna,

 

I think your signature, "You can agree with me, or you cna be wrong.....", says it all.

[donna miller]

stantheman - 2011-10-12 7:01 PM

 

Dear Donna,

 

I think your signature, "You can agree with me, or you cna be wrong.....", says it all.

 

 

Really? I can't understand why you feel the need to be abusive, the signature is humorous but you need to understand humour to appreciate it, now as you've made your attitude clear, and set the tone for the conversation..............Surely someone who attempts to be sarcastic should learn to read, the signature actually says "...you CAN be wrong" not cna. *-)

 

I don't know, some people could start an argument in an empty room.

[stantheman]

Sorry Donna, peanut stuck in the keyboard!

[Guest pelmetman]

stantheman - 2011-10-12 7:15 PMSorry Donna, peanut stuck in the keyboard!

OT Mike:D..........I thought your name was Stan.........as in Stan the man?

Maybe I should get a life:$

[colin]

Because something is legal in UK does not nessasarly make it legal across europe.

I thought that was obvious when you read the EU trailer regs, but to get onto something I know more about.

I have 4 firearms used exclusively for vermin control (and no donna, I don't think I'm dangerous with them ;-) ), I can apply for a EU licence to take them to France, but only one could be used for vermin control the other three could only be used for target shooting.

Bruce in Spain can buy DVD's that are illegal to bring into UK. The list goes on.

[Guest pelmetman]

colin - 2011-10-12 7:27 PMBecause something is legal in UK does not nessasarly make it legal across europe.I thought that was obvious when you read the EU trailer regs, but to get onto something I know more about.I have 4 firearms used exclusively for vermin control (and no donna, I don't think I'm dangerous with them ;-) )

Speaking of fire arms:$.........Whilst serving on the Cutlass, I once nearly shot my CO, Cox'n and the Chief Stoker who were standing on the bridge during small arms practice....................fortunately I ran out of bullets before I got that far:$ 

[Derek Uzzell]

The UK has road-traffic regulations regarding one motor vehicle towing another. These prohibit that practice generally, with exceptions relating to emergencies, safety, authorised users, etc. The practice where a UK motorhome tows a car on an A-frame seeks to sidestep those regulations by exploiting the UK's trailer-related regulations. Basically, this boils down to the idea that a towed-car, when connected to the A-frame, can become a 'trailer' and cease to be a 'car'. Some while ago VOSA was consulted about this and advised that, with certain reservations, the it's-now-a-trailer argument might be acceptable in a UK court of law. However, IMHO it's very difficult to envisage a realistic scenario where the A-frame issue would ever be discussed in a UK court of law. I believe A-frame 'legalisation' in the UK is a non-starter - the practice is likely to continue to be acceptable in this country and it's unlikely that any motorcaravanner will be prosecuted in the UK for A-frame-towing a car.

 

There seems to be more scope for a UK motorcaravanner being be prosecuted abroad for A-frame-towing a car as there's no guarantee that non-UK countries' laws will match the UK's. France, for example, has regulations that specifically define the make-up of a permissible towing 'combination' and a motorhome + car is not included. Hence received wisdom in France is that the A-frame towing practice is fordidden to French motorcaravanners. Whether this prohibition also applies to 'foreigners' driving in France has (as far as I'm aware) not been explored by French authorities.

 

Although Barrie (hymer1942) has been given some stick on this thread, his original question has merit. There seems to be sufficient historical evidence to prove that some UK motorcaravanners have been fined while A-frame-towing abroad, but the EXACT circumstances have never been established. An attempt was made to fine Barry 670 Euros, whereas nomadicx2 said that 3 of his friends were each given on-the-spot fines of 40 Euros. This is a huge difference and, if (as Barrie was seeking to do originally) the people who have been fined could be identified and could communicate with each other, something useful might be achieved. For instance, what regulation was cited when nomadicx2's 3 friends were fined? If it can be established what national regulations are being used to justify fining A-Framers, then it MIGHT be possible to offer a credible defence.

[hymer1942]

Hi Derek and thank you for those few kind words, I was begining to think I had lost it all togeather. You

have summed it up exactly, I was not looking for regulations or advice but as happens on here so often the thread gets distorted. While I am on here can I just say I was wearing a seat belt and paid the fine to just get away after all that time, and if the Officer had said 90 Euros for the a frame " offence" I would probably have paid that and moved on. Barrie

[francisgraham]

stantheman - 2011-10-12 5:19 PMAs far as I know, the USA don't yet claim to be part of the European Community.

As I’m sure you know, this subject has absolutely nothing to do with guns or indeed the USA, but with the complex juxtaposition of UK and EU law.

There is, as I believe your post implies, a convention that the law in an EU member state in which you are domiciled can also be applied in other EU states. As an example, if in Germany, the minimum age at which you can drive a car is 21, a UK citizen, who passed his test at 18, would be allowed to drive in Germany. The key word here is ‘domiciled’. In other words he must actually live in the country in question, even if he is not a citizen of it, so a UK citizen living ten months of the year in Spain, would be deemed to be domiciled in Spain and would be subject to its laws. It thus follows that an 18-year-old UK citizen living most of the year in Spain, could not fly home, pass his test at 18 and then return to Malaga and drive a car.

Thus it would appear that, if it is legal to drive a towed A-frame behind a motorhome in the UK, a UK citizen ought to be able to tow his A-frame with impunity in other EU states. However, this it where it gets complicated as, as others more knowledgeable about motor-homing than I have said, the law in the UK is very woolly and I can find no case law determining  whether or not an A-frame does constitute a trailer in the accepted sense.

This appears to be one example of where the law hasn’t yet caught up! Legislation was framed about towing trailers but, either someone invented the A-frame afterwards or, when the law was being drafted, no one actually thought about them or even knew that they existed.

And here is the quandary. The example of the 18-year-old should be upheld in any EU state and he should be allowed to drive but, as the legislation in the UK is, to put it mildly, rather unclear and has not been tested, a UK citizen may well have difficulty citing UK law as the reason that he can use an A-frame in other EU countries, where their use for its own citizens is forbidden.

I believe that a responsible organisation such as the Caravan Club, which I presume has a legal department, should pursue the Department of Transport and ask it to clarify the law vis a vis trailers and A-frames and enshrine its decision in a statute so that there is no longer any doubt about the legality or otherwise of towing an A-frame.

If the UK government had an unequivocal position on this, then anyone towing an A-frame in any other EU country would, in my opinion, have a reasonable chance of arguing that, as it is permitted in the UK, British visitors should be able to tow their A-frame in any other EU country, as long as they are not domiciled in it of course.

In the meantime I don’t think that anyone who is fined in Spain for instance, can put up a cast iron defence, as they cannot point to a UK statute that clearly legitimises the towing of an A-frame. Perhaps it would be wise to adopt the practice that I noticed on a site in Spain, where all the Continentals with small cars  towed them on a proper trailer?

I would add that this is just an opinion based on my scant knowledge of the overlapping effect of UK and EU law, which is a bit of a minefield!