onecal Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 They are not legal in most EU states as insurance is not available for them in that E.U state,,,,,so why they have agents for them ,,,,may be just for recovery?,,,,but not for towing for pleasure as they will not be covered by insurance,,,,the towed car or trike must have all wheels off the ground.,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 ...Around..and around..and around...!?!? 8-) Jeeez...aren't you lot getting dizzy??.... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-11-03 8:37 AM ...Around..and around..and around...!?!? 8-) Jeeez...aren't you lot getting dizzy??.... (lol) Calm down dear! - Continuing the discussion in such a way may not be sensible........... ........but it is legal! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 A friend who lives in Spain on a permanent pitch has 16 copies of the paperwork of actual fines of between 40 and 560 Euros for using an A-Frame. He has been fighting these fines for people for 12 months and making many appeals. He is next off to the HQ of the traffic police. A lot of the fines were in the Bilbao to Zaragosa area ( The main route for UK tourists) and one was 3km from the French Border just before the tunnel into France. Still as he personally was lucky not to have been caught while using an A-frame to get his car initially to Spain I guess this paperwork is all a figment of his imagination. By the way he now uses a trailor for any adventures away from his "Home" in Spain. So in conclusion, including the guy I recently tried to warn but was told to mind my own business, I guess it is all bl**dy fiction until they get caught. Forget all of the fors and againsts of A-frames - just remember "" If you go down to the woods today and meet the Guards Civil, remember to be nice - or you might just get a nasty surprise. Safe Travels, I am off to the Bar (in Spain) for my constitutional and a little light refreshment. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Post from "Chellaman" yesterday, over on MHF which illustrates my earlier posts about the clarity of the no-A-Frame law and the now-current Police enforcement practice, here in Spain:- "I have been an A-framer for seven years for over 40,000 miles in nearly 20 countries. Police in several countries have stopped me for various reasons, but never for the A-frame. I was recently stopped in the Teruel area of Spain, fined, and ordered to drive separately. They warned me not to reconnect as I would be monitored by other forces for my remaining 150 miles. And I was!!! I dread to think what the penalty would be for re-offending. I know I am now on their database. Since I live there, much of my driving is either in Spain, or leaving and entering it. The Guardia Civil are operating under new guidelines and being very aggressive in all their activities. This is VERY obvious! They gave me a copy of their relevant laws which state that one motor vehicle is not permitted to tow another motor vehicle. If a vehicle is broken down or accident-damaged, it must be removed by a special-purpose vehicle. If this is not possible, you can make your own arrangements but only to the nearest safe place. Even this is prohibited on a motorway or dual-carriageway. It is quite clear; no ifs or buts. Those who argue the merits of whether A-framing is legal in the UK or not, and any legality thus implies legality in Spain, are suffering under an illusion. It is nothing to do with UK law, MEPs, European courts, A-frame manufacturers, reclaiming paid fines, etc.. A-FRAMING IN SPAIN IS ILLEGAL AND THE LAW IS BEING ENFORCED. I have now ceased the practice until maybe I no longer need to drive in Spain and, unfortunately, will have to suffer some other way of travelling when on site." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 If one were to be logical about this, as many (most? every?) EU countries (including the UK) seem to have regulations forbidding (except in an emergency) one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle (except on a trailer), and only exploitation of trailer-related regulations seems to offer a loophole to legaity in this country, then surely the common-sense approach would be to ban the practice in the UK. Trying to use the UK's tolerance of the A-frame practice as an argument to legalise it throughout the rest of the EU has got to be perverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Derek, you seem to be ignoring the fact that quite a few UK motorhomers (hundreds if not thousands) use A-frames quite safely around the UK without any problems, Also there are several Manufacturers producing A-Frames around the UK, and advertising them as 'legal in the UK' even this Publication MMM has a few every Month, Just to Ban them because they are banned in the EU would seem even MORE perverse. You may not like them, the Europeans may not like them but a LOT in the UK do. Unless they can be proved to be Unsafe, I see no reason for them to be deemed illegal (in the UK). By the way, I don't Have one, Though, I have thought about it. As I think they are the most sensible way of taking another vehicle along with you. Without the hassle of a 'Redundant' trailer once the destination is reached. This 'Rule' (in the EU) seems to be driven by the seperate 'Registration' of the towed vehicle, although i can't think why ? as in the EU even Caravans have a seperate Registration Plate , a point that seems to be ignored by the UK Police when they Transverse our 'Camera Watched' roads?. If, Repeat IF, I decide to have an A-Frame, I will not attempt to take it to Spain, but then that probably means I won't bother to go there. Ray I have also towed caravans many thousands of miles, and consider them to be 'basically' unsafe, with the towed weight almost equaling the towing vehicle, and needing various 'Aids' to render them 'passably' safe. Which is why I swapped to Motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-11-03 11:16 AM Derek, you seem to be ignoring the fact that quite a few UK motorhomers (hundreds if not thousands) use A-frames quite safely around the UK without any problems, Also there are several Manufacturers producing A-Frames around the UK, and advertising them as 'legal in the UK' even this Publication MMM has a few every Month, Just to Ban them because they are banned in the EU would seem even MORE perverse. You may not like them, the Europeans may not like them but a LOT in the UK do. Unless they can be proved to be Unsafe, I see no reason for them to be deemed illegal (in the UK). By the way, I don't Have one, Though, I have thought about it. As I think they are the most sensible way of taking another vehicle along with you. Without the hassle of a 'Redundant' trailer once the destination is reached. This 'Rule' (in the EU) seems to be driven by the seperate 'Registration' of the towed vehicle, although i can't think why ? as in the EU even Caravans have a seperate Registration Plate , a point that seems to be ignored by the UK Police when they Transverse our 'Camera Watched' roads?. If, Repeat IF, I decide to have an A-Frame, I will not attempt to take it to Spain, but then that probably means I won't bother to go there. Ray I have also towed caravans many thousands of miles, and consider them to be 'basically' unsafe, with the towed weight almost equaling the towing vehicle, and needing various 'Aids' to render them 'passably' safe. Which is why I swapped to Motorhomes. Sorry, but where are you getting this nonsense from? Firstly; let's all try to remember that the UK IS in the geographical area called Europe, and also IS a Member State in the political grouping called the European Union. Secondly, it is NOT the "EU" that has "banned A-frames"; they are NOT "banned in the EU". Each country in Europe (and indeed, the World) makes it's own traffic laws. There is NO blanket EU-wide ban on these A-frame things. As an example, Spain has a had a law which expressly prohibits the towing of one vehicle by another on any public road, for decades and more. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, or it's predecessor, the EC, nor the EEC, nor the original Common Market. Simply domestic road traffic legislation, passed by the Spanish parliament, and enforced by the Spanish Police and Guardia Civil, in Spain. The UK has passed a set of domestic laws and regulations on vehicle towing which appear ambiguous in the "niche" case of A-frame towing; thus individuals have taken advantage of this grey area to develop/sell/use A-frames on roads in the UK. That UK situation has NO bearing whatsoever on whether any other country around the globe has or has not specifically banned vehicles towing other vehicles on their roads. Thirdly: "in the EU even Caravans have a seperate Registration Plate"..................this is NOT SO. There is NO EU-wide rule requiring the separate registration of all caravans in Member States. Again, as one example: the Law in Spain requires a separate registration ONLY for caravans over 750kgs. As another example, another EU member state, the UK, also does not have this domestic law requirement at all. In SOME individual countries within the EU, that countries Parliament may have decided to pass a law requiring some or all caravans to be separately registered/insured/MOT'd; but it is for each country to make it's own law in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-11-03 11:16 AM Derek, you seem to be ignoring the fact that quite a few UK motorhomers (hundreds if not thousands) use A-frames quite safely around the UK without any problems, Also there are several Manufacturers producing A-Frames around the UK, and advertising them as 'legal in the UK' even this Publication MMM has a few every Month, Just to Ban them because they are banned in the EU would seem even MORE perverse. You may not like them, the Europeans may not like them but a LOT in the UK do. Unless they can be proved to be Unsafe, I see no reason for them to be deemed illegal (in the UK). By the way, I don't Have one, Though, I have thought about it. As I think they are the most sensible way of taking another vehicle along with you. Without the hassle of a 'Redundant' trailer once the destination is reached. This 'Rule' (in the EU) seems to be driven by the seperate 'Registration' of the towed vehicle, although i can't think why ? as in the EU even Caravans have a seperate Registration Plate , a point that seems to be ignored by the UK Police when they Transverse our 'Camera Watched' roads?. If, Repeat IF, I decide to have an A-Frame, I will not attempt to take it to Spain, but then that probably means I won't bother to go there. Ray I have also towed caravans many thousands of miles, and consider them to be 'basically' unsafe, with the towed weight almost equaling the towing vehicle, and needing various 'Aids' to render them 'passably' safe. Which is why I swapped to Motorhomes. I've never understood why you persist in arguing that a towing technique that (at best) seems to be in a 'grey area' with regard to UK towing regulations should be considered legal simply because it's "safe". Safety has nothing to do with it, neither does the fact that many UK motorcaravanners A-frame tow without incident, nor that they've being doing this for years. Regarding advertising, the fact that certain A-frame suppliers now suggest that only their systems are 'fully EU legal' implies that they believe other suppliers' systems (essentially A-frames with overrun braking of the type most UK motorcaravanners employ) are not. I don't know where you've got the idea that 'trailer registration' is a driving force. Legality-wise in the UK it's simply a matter of whether or not the motorhome + A-frame + car is a combination that fully complies with this country's regulations. Surely that's not difficult to understand? If that particular combination is accepted by the appropriate UK authorities as fully compliant with our regulations, then it's not unreasonable to use this as a valid defence if a fine is threatened abroad. If a combination's legality has not been properly validated in the UK, then using that combination abroad makes the user vulnerable if the country he/she is driving in has national laws forbidding A-frame car-towing. It's easy to understand why a country would choose to have regulations forbidding (except in an emergency) one motor vehicle towing another as the practice is inherently risky if inappropriate equipment (like rope) is used. When my little sportscar broke down in 1969 I was towed behind a lorry for 30 miles on a rope and it was a very exciting experience! A-frame car-towing is a USA import to the UK and doesn't mesh comfortably with our regulations that were never formulated to cover the practice. That's why it remains a 'grey area'. I don't dislike A-frame towing and I fully understand why motorcaravanners (USA, UK, non-UK, anywhere) are attracted by the method. However, as the UK seems to be the only EU country that has regulations that provide any opportunity for legalising the practice, it's more logical to forbid the practice in the UK than try to use UK 'loophole' regulations to attempt to export the practice to Continental Europe or to try to defend against prosecution there. As I suggested (tongue in cheek) earlier, it would be helpful as far as legal clarification were concerned if Continental European police fined every A-frame tower (UK motorcaravanner or otherwise) that was encountered a massive sum of money. At present it appears that just a few UK motorcaravanners have been fined relatively small sums in Spain but haven't been greatly inconvenienced. If masses of UK motorcaravanners began to be fined, say, €1000 when they were caught and had to agree to separate car from motorhome for the remainder of their travels in the country where they were fined, it would very rapidly concentrate A-frame towers minds and encourage A-frame suppliers to get their arses in gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Oh Derek, for one who professes to be bored to death with the A Frame subject, you are still plodding on with this thread. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Here we are then. Just a thought. Is this problem being looked at from the the wrong angle. ? Derek says he would like the EU countries to impose massive fines on A-frame users because it does not comply with their trailer laws. Now I think most people, ( except those in the trailer trade ), agree that the best A- frame systems are no more dangerious than any other form of towing, so why are EU laws against it.? Perhaps the move ought to be to encourage, or convince EU countries to change their laws, and accept that correct and approved A- frames are legal. Remember at one time to be legal a man with a red flag had to walk in front of a motor vehicle, a ridiculous law, that was repealed. Perhaps the EU should do the same with their towing law,and make approved A-frame systems legal. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 With all this debate over something "as simple as an A-frame" and the reaction of the police forces of Spain, France, UK and so on I wonder what would be the effect now if they happened to see a small convoy of motor-homers I was part of passed by a few years ago. Of the five outfits, one was with an A-frame ( British), two were tag-axled motorhomes, one was a "standard" motorhome and the final one was with Dutch man driving his DIY-converted coach. The unusual thing about the convoy was that the DIY vehicle was towing a large Datsun on a suspended tow from a hydraulic arm. If I remember correctly he said he made an annual migration to Spain and/or Portugal each year with this combination. Although this was some four or five years ago I remember we made heads turn as we passed through towns and villages near Clermont Ferrand. Eljay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 thebishbus - 2011-11-03 8:02 PM Here we are then. Just a thought. Is this problem being looked at from the the wrong angle. ? Derek says he would like the EU countries to impose massive fines on A-frame users because it does not comply with their trailer laws. Now I think most people, ( except those in the trailer trade ), agree that the best A- frame systems are no more dangerious than any other form of towing, so why are EU laws against it.? Perhaps the move ought to be to encourage, or convince EU countries to change their laws, and accept that correct and approved A- frames are legal. Remember at one time to be legal a man with a red flag had to walk in front of a motor vehicle, a ridiculous law, that was repealed. Perhaps the EU should do the same with their towing law,and make approved A-frame systems legal. Brian B. I'm not saying that I'd "like the EU countries to impose massive fines on A-frame users". What I'd like to see is UK motorcaravanners who use an A-frames to tow a car, or are considering A-frame towing, plus the UK companies who market A-frames, actually DO SOMETHING POSITIVE regarding the legal 'grey area' that seems to surround the practice in this country. Until the regulatory position in this country is fully clarified, then it's pointless suggesting that other EU countries be encouraged to either amend their own national laws or not apply those laws to UK A-framers driving in those countries. As I (and others) have said time and time again, as long as there remains ANY doubt about the LEGALITY of the practice in the UK and/or of the A-frame systems being used here, A-framers driving abroad will remain legally vulnerable to other EU countries' national regulations that seemingly forbid the practice. Forget conspiracy theories relating to UK trailer trade bodies or the caravan clubs: forget 'safety' and entertaining tales about motorhome convoys; forget that motorcaravanners have driven for years thousands and thousands of miles throughtout the EU without incident, legal challenge or prosecution; just stay focused on the legaity of the practice in the UK. When hymer1942 posted his original inquiry I believed (and said) that the chances of him obtaining the information he was seeking via this forum were pretty small. This has proven to be so and (as far as I'm aware) he has had no 1st-hand response from an A-framer who has been fined in Spain. Nevertheless, there seems to be adequate 2nd-hand evidence to confirm that some A-framers have been fined in Spain in the past and that they are still being fined. Although there are many pro-A-framers on this forum (and on others), I don't think there is anyone genuinely anti-A-frames. There are plenty of people (like me) who try to view the subject with detachment and try to provide a focused response when someone asks a reasonable question about the practice, but I don't see that as being negative. I've absolutely no problem with your last paragraph: if that's what you and other A-framers want, then get together and do something about it. As long as A-framers have an SOBSDI (Some Other Bugger Should Do It) attitude, then nothing will change and, if A-framers begin to be fined in greater numbers in future outside the UK, then I can't see why they should expect sympathy or support. Frankly, I can't see the UK A-framer community taking proactive measures to resolve the UK 'grey area' issue satisfactorily and then follow up regarding outside-the-UK legality, as there's never been any indication to suggest anyone would be prepared to spend the huge amount of time and effort this would undoubtedly require. Hopefully I'm wrong about the SOBSDI attitude as, if A-framers want EU-wide invulnerability to prosecution, they are going to have to do some hard work themselves. Certainly nobody else will do it for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Again Derek,another well put together and well balanced post.. But do know what?...I wouldn't bother anymore if I was you.... ;-) (..and how long will it be before someone,once again posts... "but they're safe,so why aren't they legal".. (lol) (lol) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkc Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 They're safe,so why aren't they legal".. ) I made that about 16 minutes >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 ..What kept ya?... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 BGD - 2011-11-03 2:43 PM Firstly; let's all try to remember that the UK IS in the geographical area called Europe, and also IS a Member State in the political grouping called the European Union. Only until we finally get a Referendum on membership, after which we will once again be 'an island off the coast of France' Thank goodness. -) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-11-04 11:03 AM BGD - 2011-11-03 2:43 PM Firstly; let's all try to remember that the UK IS in the geographical area called Europe, and also IS a Member State in the political grouping called the European Union. Only until we finally get a Referendum on membership, after which we will once again be 'an island off the coast of France' Thank goodness. -) We already are an island off the coast of France, unless you include the tunnel as dry land. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Do you think that someone in Warners starts this up again if the forum is getting a bit dull. It certainly attracts lots of response. Sadly I doubt if the legal position in the UK will be resolved until a motorhome/A frame is involved in a serious motorway accident and tabloid headlines 'investigate' the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-11-04 10:09 AM Again Derek,another well put together and well balanced post.. But do know what?...I wouldn't bother anymore if I was you.... ;-) (..and how long will it be before someone,once again posts... "but they're safe,so why aren't they legal".. (lol) (lol) ) Questions on the lines of "they're safe, so why aren't they legal?" can be ignored as irrelevant - I don't think anyone has ever argued that a properly installed A-frame system is in any way unsafe, nor has any claim been made that A-frame towing in the UK is (in the strict sense of the word) illegal. But the A-frame concept, where a vehicle transforms between car or trailer by the simple addition or removal of a different number-plate and an "ON TOW" sign, must surely be considered unusual. And, because it's unusual, the concept has never been fully integrated into UK law and hasn't got the positive 'legality' that might override with certainty potentially conflicting laws in other countries. There are lots of motoring-related regulations that countries outside the UK have and we don't, but this doesn't mean that, just because the UK doesn't have those regulations, UK motorcaravanners can ignore the 'foreign' regulations when driving abroad. The UK has no general regulations about vehicles carrying warning triangles, high-visibility waistcoats, first-aid kits, etc., but this doesn't mean that a UK motorcaravanner driving in, say, France will not be required to carry a triangle and waistcoat. Conversely, a French motorcaravanner who risks a fine in France for having no triangle/waistcoat, need not fear prosecution for not carrying those items while driving in the UK. There's no general rule that one country's vehicle-related regulations will automatically apply, or not apply, in another country. So, just because there are no UK regulations specifically banning A-frame towing here, that doesn't mean laws in other countries that ban A-frame towing for those countries' residents, will necessarily not apply to visiting UK motorcaravanners. It's interesting to note that all the motorhome magazines and all the caravan/camping clubs have side-stepped this issue. I can't say I blame them, as it may be realistically impossible to resolve, but it does suggest that there's something 'iffy' about the A-frame concept regarding its legality outside the UK. Years ago, I said that I would have no qualms whatsoever over A-frame towing in the UK as far as risking prosecution were concerned, but I'd be warier of doing it abroad. Nothing since then has changed that view, though I believe that the risk of being prosecuted abroad has increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ray Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hi We left Salamanca on sunday on our way south as we approached the m otorway we were stopped by the traffic police for towing with an A FRAME we was fined 80 euro reduced to 40 for paying on the spot After giving us a ticket he let us carry on our journey and said if we got stopped by police again that day to show ticket and we would be ok RAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer1942 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 AT LAST WE HAVE FOUND ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 ..So what do you reckon then..after this "extensive research"?... ..I guess with only few coming forward,it *must* mean that the risk of getting fined is very slim...eh?... ;-) Go for it...and let us know how you get on.... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Is it a slim chance of being fined OR are the majority of members on this and other forums taking notice of what is being said and NOT using A-Frames. I suspect the latter, as not all of us have either unlimited funds or stick our heads in the sand denying that any problem exists. A bit like the couple captured by the Somali Pirates, we know a problem exists but we won't get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 hymer1942 - 2011-11-09 2:57 PM AT LAST WE HAVE FOUND ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Barrie What I suggest you now do is get in direct contact with Ray in due course (via the forum's PM facility) to establish the actual Spanish regulation that was used as a reason to fine him. Presumably Ray will still have all the documentation and perhaps he could let you have a copy. Personally, I find it bizarre that a motorcaravanner, having been fined for a practice that is considered to conflict with Spanish law, is not only permitted to continue committing the 'offence' immediately after the fine has been paid, but given what amounts to a Get-out-of-Jail-Card for the rest of that day. I'd like to see this system introduced into the UK, so that I could get fined for speeding in the early morning and then be able to drive like Hell with immunity for the next 24 hours. Statistically, Ray's valuable feedback won't allow any sort of accurate risk assessment to be made. I'm not aware how large this forum's active membership is (not that many I suspect), nor how many of that membership A-frame tow to Spain (bound to be far less). In fact, I'm quite surprised that Barrie's inquiry has (eventually) produced a 'hit'. Given the relatively small number of A-framers who do visit Spain and the size of this forum, the logical conclusion is the opposite to pepe63's - not only are A-Framers being fined in Spain nowadays, but there's a reasonably significant risk of anyone using that towing technique falling foul of the Spanish law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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