derek pringle Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 All help appreciated. Looking towards the winter coming I was wondering the best way to protect the motorhome and yet keep it prepared for use. It does have the "Winter Pack" installed [ lagging and tank heaters] but not sure how effective this would be in the depths of winter, also looking for a system of keeping the interior in best condition. We do not expect to use the van a lot in the bad weather but if a sudden brighter period came along would like to get on the road without too much hassle. Is it a must to drain down or is the supplementary wiinter pack ok to leave on permanently?how good is the protection provided? are free standing heaters inside the van a goer or a no-no ? Looking forward to experience from the forum to help. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteCheyenneMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Having asked similar questions myself, the consensus view seems to be: Most definitely drain everything, open all taps to central position, remove shower head and place on floor of shower to drain, remember to drain boiler, via it's own drain tap, and then run pump for a few seconds or, many say, remove pump and drain separately (plus any filter). Drive round the block with all drains open to remove last drops and then leave drains open. Attach covers to fridge vents. Place small oil filled radiator inside and set to frost (needs mains power!). Open all cupboards esp. those giving access to lockers and put mattress and cushions on their sides to assist airflow. We use an interior silver cab screen and brown paper over windows on sunny side to protect curtains/upholstery. Check tyre pressures and move van a little every couple of weeks to avoid flat spots on tyres. We have a small solar panel on dashboard (outside silver screen!!) plugged into vehicle battery, to keep it topped up and the van is connected to the mains to maintain the two leisure batteries. If you're leaving it a while, a neat trick is to place a small piece of chocolate biscuit on the floor and, if it's still there in spring, you've not given shelter to any mice etc.! I'm sure that other members can add to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The above is excellent, and comprehensive, advice. I also remove the gas cylinders, in part because of one or two arson attacks in the locality. I would add that you should, whenever possible, run the van for 15-20 miles monthly, which is preferable to merely moving it, to stir up all lubricants and coolants to prevent sludge settling, but also to polish rust off discs and clutch, to warm and ventilate the engine bay and associated electronics modules, and just generally get the bits twiddling. Not sure about the choc on the floor. If they get in and find it, you'll have whole families moving in! :-) I'd prefer leaving it bare of anything consumable. Gentle heat is a good idea or, failing that, use a simple dehumidifier, chemical or electric. Either will work equally well but, for obvious reasons, you'll have to restrict ventilation while they're in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Thanks White Cheyenne Man and Brian for the advice ,all in all seems very comprehensive. Brian ,when you talk about restricting ventilation, do you mean I should create ventilation by opening window/ rooflight slightly. I do have facility for elec. plug in all year so an oil filled radiator is no problem,I assume just set to frost protection on the rad. stat.. No mention in either of your helpful postings about the in-built frost protection to van as I just thought it could be expensive to run a radiator and keep frost protection on as well.Any ideas please? Admittedly I prefer the radiator theory as it seems it would keep the whole van warmer. I will run the engine regular. Overall, I suppose I was looking for a quick fix so as we could use the van at a "minutes" notice but looks like there will be no substitute for the thorough job. Thanks very much for your help. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-10-23 8:29 AM 1...................................Brian ,when you talk about restricting ventilation, do you mean I should create ventilation by opening window/ rooflight slightly. 2....................................No mention in either of your helpful postings about the in-built frost protection to van as I just thought it could be expensive to run a radiator and keep frost protection on as well.Any ideas please? 3.................................... I will run the engine regular. derek Hi Derek To 1 above: no I mean restrict as in very, very little! If you have free ventilation you'll end up trying to heat, or dehumidify, half your county! :-) To 2 above: I do not know what that built-in frost protection might be. Can you explain? To 3 above: personal view, but I don't think just running the engine cuts the mustard. It'll warm the engine, but not that well, won't get far into the gearbox, and do nothing for brakes, wheel bearings etc. Far better, IMO, to get it out and drive it 15-20 miles, and give the whole lot a work-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hi Brian Thanks again for helping. 1/ I see what you mean about ventilation. 2/ By in- built frost protection I simply mean the optional extra when you buy the van--namely lagging of pipework and tank heaters. Wondered if anybody had any experience of using this system and keeping some water in tanks.Main concerns / cost and reliability over a long period which a winter could be. 3/ Point taken I will take the van out for a run when weather permits.As I said in original post I was hoping it would be possible to leave the van in more of a state of readiness but not to the point of detriment to the vehicle. thanks derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hi Derek. Re 2, gotcha! Sadly, it seems you have a van that is not fully winterised, that you want to use in winter. This carries risks, but is not impossible. First, a truly winterised van will have an inboard fresh water tank, and either an inboard (housed in a heated void between double floors - which is the best solution overall, but invariably limited to relatively expensive vans), or an underslung and heated, waste tank. Your fresh water tank heater, although running on 12V , will (normally) function only when on mains hook up, or when the engine is running. So, unlikely to be of use in other circumstances. I have no familiarity with these, but would doubt that they are designated for continuous use, just as a defence for a few cold days at a time. So, trying to leave water in the tank throughout the winter, and relying on the heater to stop it freezing, would, I think, be liable to result in the early demise of the heater. Doubtless others will advise if this is wrong. However, the water in the tank is not the greatest problem. Vans such as yours tend to have quite extensive pipe runs beneath the floor. This may apply to cold water, hot water, and waste. It is worth checking. In low temperatures, it is these pipes that will freeze first, long before the much greater volume in the tank. You must also consider the effects of wind. Not just normal wind, but that beneath your van while you drive it. Travel forward over a cold road at, at say 50MPH, into a 30MPH headwind, and all those pipes are exposed to an 80MPH, possibly sub-zero, gale. They will freeze, probably leaving you with water sloshing happily in the tank but no cold or hot from the taps, and no drainage either, should you find an alternative water source. You mention lagging. Lagging is merely slows the passage of heat, it does not prevent the passage of heat. However much lagging is present (even assuming it is meticulously installed, and of a completely waterproof type) in sub zero temperatures those sub-floor pipes will eventually freeze. It is not a matter of if, merely of when. So, lagged pipes will take longer to freeze than un-lagged pipes, but if it stays cold enough for long enough, especially if windy, freeze they will. I assume your van has the ubiquitous Truma Combi water/space heater? This has an automatic "dump" valve that opens at low temperatures and drains down its contents (in the process, it is quite likely to also syphon off the contents of the fresh water tank). This is essential to prevent water in the Truma boiler from freezing because, as water freezes it expands so, were it to do so, it would split the stainless steel heater jacket in the process. Very expensive! From your description, your van is, if you will, "winterised light". It is designed for a typical English winter (not even a full-on Sottish winter), and almost certainly not for the temperatures you would encounter in the Alps were you to go winter-sporting. In effect, it should resist the typical English winter cold snap, usually under high pressure and so still air, that usually lasts a few days at most. That is where the risk lies. By keeping a close eye on weather forecasts, and avoiding anywhere that looks as though it may be subject to sub-zero temperatures for more than a very few hours (probably around dawn) per day, it should be fine. Otherwise, travel with everything drained off, select a campsite with good, heated facilities, leave everything empty, and use the site facilities. Carry bottled water for drinking, and use site water for cooking/hot drinks. Final point. If you do decide to leave fresh water in your tank when the van is not in use, remember that without further treatment, stored water deteriorates because, although it is sterile and chlorinated when it comes from the mains, the chlorine evaporates off quite quickly, leaving it prone to contamination. So, any untreated residue in the tank, or in pipes, that may have already become contaminated, will then contaminate what you add. It will not last in drinkable quality for long. You don't drink it? Fine, but with what will you brush your teeth or clean fruit or salad? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Thanks Brian, Some eye openers here for me. The van in question is a 2011-Bessacarr 660. When we opted for the 'winter pack' -lagging/tank heaters and fridge vent covers we honestly thought we would be ok if we wanted to go away anywhere in the winter, not just Spain or the like,seems if we are winter light then the likes of Austria or such would need extra planning. Wanting to err on the side of caution I will drain down on leaving every site during the dodgy months as the drive outside the house slopes and would definitely hold pockets of water. Regarding any water we use, we never drink from the supply in the van, always bottled water,we just use it for washing etc. but this will not be an issue as I will follow the advice you give and drain down. The lagging appears to be standard foam type covered with Duck Tape, although it seems a neat enough job I have no idea of the amount of protection it would afford. Finally I wonder if I could press you just a little further as to what you think I would/could do if I wished to travel somewhere cold, what extra measures can I take/fit to couple with your previous advice. thanks again cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Being able to drain down should be a straight forward thing to do but not with some models of Autotrail. Mine for instance and my previous model has the water pump situated under the cooker on the back wall. You need to be very dexterous to reach it after removing all the cooking pans etc, then you can just about get to the filter bowl on the pump to remove the surplus water otherwise if it freezes up you end up with a plug of solid ice. I have mentioned it to Autotrail who are supposed to listen to constructive criticism about putting it in a more accessible place but it has fallen on deaf ears. Their reply was that where it is doesn't take up any storage space where it is. Not only that there is an air vent next to it which channels in cold air so that increases the chance of a freeze up. I once had to change the pump and it was a very difficult thing to do, I made a special cradle for the pump to rest on as I loosened off all the retaining screws and pipes, I had to buy a very long screwdriver as well as my arms weren't long enough. The new one went back in reverse order. I have since modified a filter bowl by drilling the bottom and attaching a drain off tap to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hi Rolandrat, The book says drain the water at the dump valve,opening taps and drains etc. Are you saying there is something extra needs doing with the pump. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Derek we have a Swift which has a similar tank setup to you. We rarely use in the winter but have tank heater in fresh tank and the pipe from this lagged. In use it has never frozen while we have been away including last year when at Chatsworth and temperatures dropped to below freezing for two days. Am pretty sure Brian is correct that they are not meant for long term use and would not work in the alps during the winter, we always drain the tank for the winter after our last trip, usually early December. Bit mystified by Brians assertion that wind will cause things to freeze, wind has no effect on temperature, people sometimes get confused with the term 'wind chill' another thing altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yes Derek, it is always wise to take the bowl off so that any water still in the pipe and pump is removed. Before I made the modification I did suffer an ice plug and when I realised it was there I used the wifes hairdrier to thaw it out, luckily I didn't have any further problems. It has been mentioned to try and blow out any residual water with an air line but if you do as previous owners have mentioned you should be OK. The valve you have mentioned is probably the boiler dump valve which is very important and shouldn't be overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-10-25 12:09 PM............................. Bit mystified by Brians assertion that wind will cause things to freeze, wind has no effect on temperature, people sometimes get confused with the term 'wind chill' another thing altogether. I'll try to explain, but I'm not a scientist, so forgive me if some of the terminology is a bit wacky! :-) I wasn't referring to wind chill, which is the added effect of evaporative cooling, nor was I intending to imply that wind alone will cause freezing. What I was trying to get across is that the rate of heat transfer is greater when air moves over a warm object. In sill air, heat from a warm object will warm the air around it, which will rise to be replaced by cooler air, which will in turn be warmed, and so on - natural convection. The rate at which this transfer will take place depends largely on the temperature difference between the air and the object, which in turn will drive the rate of the resulting natural convection. Take a typical cold water pipe from a fresh water tank on a cold day, with the water at possibly 5C or less, and the air at maybe -3C: the convection will be sluggish, and the water in the pipe will loose its heat relatively slowly. However, if the air is moving at, say 20MPH, as it will in wind, it will draw heat from the water in the pipe far more quickly than the sluggish, still air convection, can achieve, because it is moving too fast to be appreciably warmed before it is replaced by new cold air. The result is that the water will chill more quickly, though only to about same ultimate temperature as in still air. If the vehicle is being driven, so that the wind is now the slipstream, it is quite possible that salt spray at -3C will be added to the mix. Since water is a better heat transport medium than air, the rate of temperature loss in that pipe will now be even higher. In Alpine conditions, especially at night, temperatures fall much lower, sometimes to around -25C, so sub-floor tanks and pipes become highly vulnerable to freezing. Unfortunately, Swift do cheat somewhat in their descriptions of the insulation standards their van achieve, and their recourse to tank heaters and insulation, while still leaving the pipes and tanks exposed and vulnerable, is a case in point. Vans manufactured elsewhere in Europe, in general, place tanks and pipe runs in-board, except for waste tanks which are frequently, as standard, provided with heaters. They usually also place all heater air ducts in-board as well, to reduce transmission losses. I'm afraid if Derek's intended trips to Austria would involve winter and altitude, he will have problems that can only truly be resolved by a change of itinerary, dates, or van! Otherwise, he will have to accept the limitations of compromise. Since he has said Bessacarr, and since many Swift group vans have gas lockers that will not take 13kg gas cylinders, in some cases I understand not even two 7kg cylinders, he won't be spending long at altitude anyway, because at Alpine night-time temperatures his heater will gobble gas and, when it is all gone, the temperature will rapidly head for -25C as well! You can't rely on turning off the heating when you go to bed, it pretty much has to stay on 24/7. Some European winter-sporters even tow trailers loaded with 13kg cylinders to get them through. And no, they don't comply with the laws on gas transportation, and certainly not with Alpine tunnel regulations! You never quite know what the person in front has on board, do you! :-D He should also check the specifications of his tyres and ensure that they are marked M+S, if he would reach Austria via Germany, to be sure he complies with German winter driving tyre law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I take your point Brian about the heat loss but on an insulated pipe and tank, even under the van it will be minimal as the water in the tank will already be nearly down to outside temps. In the extreme conditions you describe I agree nothing much will stop problems and did say I would not use the van in winter alpine conditions, although even these rarely reach the temps you describe. Swift do not and never have claimed their vans are fully winterised. Austria if he insists will in fact be a good choice. If he chooses his resort with care the villages are often pretty low altitude so except in very rare conditions will not get to extreme. I spend about two months every winter in the alps, not in my van as I think any van is unsuitable for long stay skiing, and the resort I stay at the local aire and campsite is at 700 meters. In March temps rarely get below freezing at this level so it could be done, January, my favorite time, it can get a touch colder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Just to add one point to Rupert's post. Sometimes in winter, during prolonged periods of high pressure, you will encounter very low temperatures in low laying valleys. (Inverse Weather due to lack of wind to shift the cloud cover) The valley bottom can be shrouded in low cloud & much colder, whilst higher up the mountain clear sky's & sunshine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hi , Thanks for all this great information. Proves the worth of this forum and helps prevent people making large and costly errors of judgement, ignorance is bliss when it carries no cost I suppose. Our main use will be in this country or the warmer parts abroad, we travel abroad quite a bit in the van but have never done winters. No great loss having to forego long winter hols in the Alps as unfortunately I am not active enough to enjoy to the full potential,skiing etc. However, your collective points about driving in cold winds and the water in the pump etc raise another query, that is , would the van be fine to travel through France for instance in the bad weather in order to reach warmer climes.?Incidently, Brian I carry 2 x 6 kg Gaslow cyls. and was considering changeing to underslung tank but am not convinced I need to go to the expense. cheers for the info. derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-10-26 10:12 AM Hi , Thanks for all this great information. Proves the worth of this forum and helps prevent people making large and costly errors of judgement, ignorance is bliss when it carries no cost I suppose. Our main use will be in this country or the warmer parts abroad, we travel abroad quite a bit in the van but have never done winters. No great loss having to forego long winter hols in the Alps as unfortunately I am not active enough to enjoy to the full potential,skiing etc. However, your collective points about driving in cold winds and the water in the pump etc raise another query, that is , would the van be fine to travel through France for instance in the bad weather in order to reach warmer climes.?Incidently, Brian I carry 2 x 6 kg Gaslow cyls. and was considering changeing to underslung tank but am not convinced I need to go to the expense. cheers for the info. derek A lot of people do just this Derek. I would consider the fitting of a tank heater in the fresh water tank, mine was £150 fitted which included a small bit of pipe lagging as well, as it will stop things freezing down to just under freezing point. With the gaslow you will be fine as most countries have got enough outlets to give you plenty of time to find a refill when one bottle runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 flicka - 2011-10-25 11:34 PM Just to add one point to Rupert's post. Sometimes in winter, during prolonged periods of high pressure, you will encounter very low temperatures in low laying valleys. (Inverse Weather due to lack of wind to shift the cloud cover) The valley bottom can be shrouded in low cloud & much colder, whilst higher up the mountain clear sky's & sunshine. Good point John this, in fact, happens quite a lot, certainly in March. However temperature differance is usually only about 2 degrees at the coldest points. During the day as things warm up temps in the mountains can go way above freezing in the sun while in the valley it can remain at or close to O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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