sandya Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hi Folks,we intended to go to Cologne in November for Christmas market but have just read of new legislation in Germany [Dec 2010] stating vehicles must have winter tyres fitted in winter conditions ie snow slush ice and hoar frost,looks like we will have to reconsider,any opinions on this legislation? Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hello sandya. If you scroll down this page you will see a thread about winter tyres which should intrest you. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderbirds Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hello Sandya, I think you will find that you do not need full winter tyres but merely those marked mud and snow. I checked on the EU website before I bought tyres recently as we are going to the German Christmas markets in December. Many dedicated motorhome tyres including the Michelin Agilis Camping are (M+S). I have had two sets of tyres for my last four or five road cars because the difference they make when driving in snow and slush is marked and I feel a lot safer on the 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 hills around our village. Having just spent almost a grand replacing one unused and four perfectly good tyres with 5 to 6 mm of tread because they were 6 years old I feel more aggrieved about the multitude of differing advice one reads about the age at which to replace tyres. Given that the tyres are the only thing between me, the road and eternity I tend to be cautious. Also I suspect that some insurance companies will not take the "up to 10 year recommendation of Michelin for regularly inspected tyres" if they could get out of paying up in the event of an accident to a van shod with tyres older than the DVLA recommended 6 years. Back to your question - I think M + S tyres on all vehicles in bad weather are a good thing. I bet that makes me popular. Regards, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandya Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Thanks for your input Dave and Carl,having recently fitted a full set of Continental Vancos it is now out of the question to fit m+s for some time to come unless legislation in UK or for that matter France ,.as we drive to Spain every winter, changes to demand the use of winter tyres.The manager of our local tyre depot tells me he can barely meet demand for winter tyres and my son says he has read of businesses specialising in the storage and refitting of these tyres or wheels on a seasonal basis so I would not rule this out . Regards Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 German tourist board info on winter tyres. Winter driving in Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Good Lenny. I was hoping someone might do this. In fact, the wording on the Tourist Board site is a bit wooly, as they mix definitions. Winter tyres, as usually defined by their manufacturers, are in fact a step beyond M+S tyres. It is the "M+S", and not "winter", designation tyres that the new legislation seems to require to be fitted. The winter designation is usually stated on the tyre sidewall, and tends to be indicated by the "3 Peak mountain Snow Flake" logo, although I understand this is to be a Canadian requirement. The catch is that these tyres are not generally recommended for summer use, especially in hot parts of Europe, and are regarded as being excessively worn at (from memory :-)) 4mm of remaining tread. So, if you have them on a vehicle in Germany, in winter, with less than that amount of tread remaining, you will still be liable to be fined. Be careful out there! :-) However, I also understand the legislation is a bit evasive as to what exactly is required, and places the onus on the driver to ensure their vehicle has tyres appropriate for the conditions. That requirement, as I understand it, could be met by ordinary "summer" tyres if the weather is mild and there is no frost, salt, snow, ice or slush, on the road, and providing the road is not designated as requiring winter tyres or chains to be used between certain dates. Under the circumstances, most Germans seem to have adopted what has in any case, for years, been the normal practise in many areas, and bought a set of full winter tyres, often with wheels as well, which they fit as and when conditions dictate, and remove again some time in spring. Bearing in mind most motorhome tyres die of old age rather than wear, that becomes quite an onerous cost for German owners of our vehicles. The solution, it seems to me, is to ignore "winter" tyres and go for "M+S" designated tyres suitable for year round use. Michelin Agilis Camping are, I understand, M+S designated. Their winter tyre, Agilis Alpin, carries the 3 peaks, but the camper does not. The Alpin is not reccommended for summer use. Continental Vanco Four Season carry the M+S designation (at least the ones I bought this year do!) although this was not mentioned in Contis' technical data book. So, any of these would meet the German requirement, and both the Michelin Agilis camping, and the Continental Vanco Four Season, are suitable for all year use. I have to say the Vanco Four Season do give improved traction compared to the standard Vancos, even in late summer/autumn, and I don't think that is wholly because they are new. If you fit designated "winter" tyres (whether or not thay carry the 3 peaks logo), and you carry a spare with the intention of fitting it, bear in mind that true winter tyres should not be mixed with other tyres in any configuration. Yep, that spare would need a winter tyre as well! Just one caution, you will still have to carry chains, whatever tyres are fitted and, if your vehicle is Transit based, check what the handbook says regarding tyre sizes where chains are fitted. Ours, 2007 Mk 7 FWD Transit based, must have narrower section tyres on the front if chains are fitted, because inner wing clearances are inadequate for chains on the standard tyres. Doesn't get any easier, does it? :-D Clearly this raises issues for anyone who, like Sandy, may wish to use their van in winter, in Germany. The simple solution has to be to make the fitting of M+S tyres a condition of contract when buying the van, but that is of no help to those who already have their vans. I think this legislation will creep into more countries, possibly being applied within selected regions only. Therefore, it seems to me, anyone buying new tyres for their motorhome may be wise to ensure they are M+S designated all season tyres. In the meantime, my suggestion for Andy would be to visit almost anywhere in Alsace, where the legislation does not apply, and where Christmas markets abound. For example, Obernai has a Christmas market plus an excellent year round municipal campsite that you can book by e-mail, with fully enclosed heated facilities, including washing up area, and hard standing pitches. Strasbourg, with its Christmas market, is only a relatively quick train ride away. Colmar is, I think, in French terms, the daddy of them all, and is an attractive city - but the municipal site is (or was, last time we were there, in spring 2009) a very poor offering by comparison. However, it could be reached from the comfort of Obernai, albeit with a possible change at Selestat, or from other sites/aires. It would be worth researching Christmas markets in Alsace a bit, because my impression is that almost every village stages something, and aires and winter camp sites abound in the area - though the markets are very popular, especially with the Germans, so space may be at a premium. If you haven't already been, most of Alsace is picture-postcard pretty - even without a dusting of snow! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderbirds Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hello Again, Coming at your problem on a slightly different tack. Given that you are not going to buy a new set of tyres to go to the Christmas market in Cologne, have you thought about camping in Holland (M+S not required) say at Valkenburg near Maastricht? You could visit the Christmas Market in the caverns here and use the train to Koln and Aachen for their Christmas markets. You will need to change trains at the border to use the local trains in Germany. The €35 per day or weekend pass is valid for up to 5 people within the region. You could do at least two markets in a weekend. It is cheaper than another new set of tyres. Regards, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 There is another option - not all would take it though of course - what about just ignoring this rule when popping in to Germany as a short-stay visitor? I guess it depends mainly on how likely (or unlikely) you are to actually ever get pulled for not having the right logos on your tyres, and how much the fine would be...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 BGD - 2011-10-25 4:11 PM There is another option - not all would take it though of course - what about just ignoring this rule when popping in to Germany as a short-stay visitor? I guess it depends mainly on how likely (or unlikely) you are to actually ever get pulled for not having the right logos on your tyres, and how much the fine would be...................... That's a point. The fine may well be less than the cost of the tyres. Come to think of it, it makes visiting German markets a very expensive outing, if that's' all you will be buying a new set of tyres for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ..............do they sell Winter tyres at German Christmas Markets? ;-) (AIUI, the potential fine is €40, doubled if you cause any delays - but of course, if you have an accident you are likely to be considered negligent - with all the negative connotations that holds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderbirds Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Not advocating breaking the law but for your info the penalty for being caught in winter weather without (M+D) or better tyres is 1 penalty point plus a €30 fine. If you get stuck, cause an accident or similar the minimum penalty doubles - 2 points and minimum of €60 fine. Train looks a better option as the gluhwein and beer intake can also be increased.. Regards, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderbirds Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Sorry, Robinhood is correct about the fines but the points on your licence are carried over to the UK. Regards, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandya Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks for all valued comments we have decided to play it safe and stick to Belgium the market at Liege looks as if it will be quite good with options of a few others by public transport, did think about taking a chance on Germany without winter tyres but concerned about voiding insurance if involved in an accident,thanks all .Regards Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homenaway Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I got the impression that many German market stallholders were over here from mid November ;-) Birmingham, Manchester etc!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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