Dave Newell Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-28 2:32 PM The gaslow biggots have a good reliable system as far as I know, every system has it's advantages and disadvantages it is at least as safe as useing refillable bottles. As far as I can see the gaslow systems only weak point is the filler forgetting to close the outlet valve before refilling. Human error. Both gaslow and refillable bottles are slightly safer than refilling ordinary non refillable gas bottles To get a fuller discussion we should all try not to get too entrenched in our opinions and be open to other points of view. Two heads are always better than one, even if the other head belongs to an idiot because even an idiot may spot something that we all have missed Syd, I'm intrigued as to why you differentiate between Gaslow and refillable bottles. Gaslow are refillable. I believe your refillable cylinder is an Alugas one. With reference to forgetting to turn off the outlet valve before filling a cylinder surely you all turn off your cylinders before travelling (unless you have the Truma Drivesafe system fitted of course), especially when a refill visit is anticipated. I advise all customers having refillable cylinders from me that the number one most important rule is to turn off the cylinders before refilling. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-28 1:25 PM Hi Again Rupert I have to agree with you that filling a gas bottle on the floor on the forecourt is dangerous because I cannot see how anyone can have a proper filler conection to the bottle for the filling nozzle to fix to but I would love to be told how that is done. Even so, if this can be done and the filler overfilled the bottle, say to absolutely full, and then removed the filler nozzle where is the danger on the forecourt coming from. The proper filler conection is securely fastened to the bottle or it would have leaked as soon as the filling process started, and when the filling is complete the bottle will/should have been turned off so where is the danger on the forecourt actually coming from. So "Damn dangerous" to the forecourt it is not. The only way to fill bottles is safely and I firmly believe that the system that I use is at least as safe as a gaslow system. It has some advantages and some disadvantages over gaslow systems Scroll back up and read it then come back and tell me where it is highly dangerous, some people do this to save money but most I would suggest are like you and I, they do it so that they never run out of gas and this alone suggests to me that these people will want to do it safely. I have filled my bottles at gas stations in France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, UK, and Italy where the attendant is the only person allowed to serv gas with absolutely no problems at all. We have got to stop saying that this is "Highly Dangerous" "Damn Dangerous" and so on because if done with the correct components it is NOT "Highly Dangerous" or "Damn Dangerous" it simply has some risks that are no greater than those we face everytime we face the dangers of going onto a garage forecourt. Risks but different risks and not neccessarilly more dangerous risks Hi again rrf494g Nothing is ever perfect in this world but to think that cutoff valves are going to fail is pushing things a bit, cut off valves, as we have already said WILL have come under a great deal of scrutiny before they were allowed onto the market and failure rates are probably going to be about as frequent as a gas bottle splitting open through being shaken, would love to see any figures on failure rates, there probably isn't any though. This isn't just a gaslow thing though it is also a refillable bottle problem and it is worldwide and because of this the amount of money spent overall on development will be enormous, you can bet that they will all use more or less the same cutoff valve system because it has been proven to work. So in reality I believe that failure of the cut off valve can be discounted, but again if I am wrong please show me why So where are we now , as I see it from the previous posts Refilling fixed refillable systems useing the proper parts carries some risk but is not inherantly dangerous Refilling refillable bottles useing the proper parts carries some risk but is not inherantly dangerous Re filling ordinary gas bottles useing the proper parts and proper checking procedures carries some additional risk but again is not inherantly dangerous. What we now need is opinions to be expressed stating if this is correct or not and why Once we reach agreement wether the above is correct or not through further discussion if neccessary all we need to do is to set out what are the best safety procedures that we all need to carry out for each of the systems. Your beginning to lose me Syd. Like Dave I just cannot see what you think is the differance between Gaslow and other re-fillable,s, they work in the same way. I have never said your system is dangerous as you have a bottle that is meant to be re-filled, it is that other bloke, whatever his name is who fills bottles with no safeguards. He asks me how I know people just weigh them and then proceeds to tell me that is eactly what he does. As I said fill it up weigh it and hope for the best, wonder if the supplier of his 47kg bottles knows what he is doing? Incidently to those who worry about the chance of a re-fillable cut out not working. If you turn of the bottles the pump will still cut out so no danger other than your gas not working. As to your risk assesment I do not agree with the third option and have given my reasons several times now. Their is only one possible reason someone would do this and that is to save a few pennies, why take the risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thanks for the questions I will do my best to answer them Peter Well all I can say is that I have never seen or heard of a petrol pump not stopping pumping fuel when the tank is full, I am most certainly not saying anything detrmental, but I have never seen or heard of it. Simply because I am curious could I ask if anyone has had this happen to them or even heard of it happening. Your point about not being able to see inside the gaslow tank if it was over filled or not is right but honestly I believe we can safely discount the gaslow cut off valve failing but if anyone knows where we can get any figures on it it would certainly be helpful in discussions. Hi Dave I differentiate between the Gaslow system and refillable bottles because in the main the gaslow bottles/tanks are fixed into the vehicle and filled through the proper filler conection with securely fixed pipework. Where as the refillable bottles usually are not and predominently used by tuggers so are refilled seperate from their position of use, through some other set up, and unless this setup is the right one and not a heath robinson affair extra danger is involved. I have no reason to doubt that everyone who has a gaslow system will be told that they must turn off the outlet valve but along comes human error, the refillable bottle user, in the main does not have this problem because usually he will close the outlet valve when he removes the bottle for refilling but he does have the problem of safely venting the under pressure gas that remains in the pipe between the filling conector and the bottle. It wont come out when you release the gun because of the non return valve in the filler conection wich is a good thing and the same applies for the gaslow boys In my case I estimate that this is about ten times the amount that is released when you remove the filling gun from the filling conector probably more Rupert Sorry if I am not making myself clear enough but as this is something that I do frequently and have been noteing on other peoples setups for a year or two then I automatically see it in my minds eye and posibly slide over some bits unknowingly because I know and think you should too Human error again sorry I hope you can now see from my reply to Dave why I differentiate between the two systems. Sorry again Rupert, I did not mean to imply that you had said that the system that I use was dangerous the remark was made more as a question inviting you to comment on my setup, sorry for the confusion but I have said before that I am not the brightest shilling in the purse Filling non refillable bottles really isn't quiet as dangerous as is made out PROVIDING the correct equipment is used. Weighing need only be an extra safeguard. You start of with the weight of an empty bottle, you can also get the weight of a full bottle, from the difference in the two weights it is quiet easy to work out how many litres of gas the difference in the two weights equate to and so you know that you can put into that bottle that amount of gas. Gas bottles are made to a very strict criteria and so it is not unreasonable to think that there will be virtually no difference in the capacity of bottles. Dents in bottles will make so little difference it is hardly worh mentioning unless the dent is really big and if your bottle was dented like that you wouldnt fill it would you. I can assure you Rupert I, and many others that I have come across, all do it so that they do not run out of gas on long vacations, the money savings are NOT the reason that many of us do it, of course it will be the reason for some but not the majority that I have come across. Hope everyone is satisfied with their answers if not please get back on here and at the same time maybe propose some guidelines for refilling bottles because that is what I would really like to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Syd I am simply not getting through am I. I HAVE NO PROBLEM with you or anyone else self filling a refillable bottle regardless of the make, that is what it is made for. I find your thing that one make, Gaslow, is somehow used in a differant way a little strange but leaveing that aside I self fill mine, they just happen to be fixed in place. However the people who self fill with a standard bottle cannot do it for the same reason, that is to be able to get gas anywhere they wish, they just do it to save some money, why else? Guidelines no problem, one buy a bottle or two that are made to be self filled with a proper cut off valve, two make sure you close the bottle valve when filling, three do not in any circumstances try to fill standard bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 rupert123 - 2012-01-28 9:52 PM Syd I am simply not getting through am I. I HAVE NO PROBLEM with you or anyone else self filling a refillable bottle regardless of the make, that is what it is made for. I find your thing that one make, Gaslow, is somehow used in a differant way a little strange but leaveing that aside I self fill mine, they just happen to be fixed in place. However the people who self fill with a standard bottle cannot do it for the same reason, that is to be able to get gas anywhere they wish, they just do it to save some money, why else? Guidelines no problem, one buy a bottle or two that are made to be self filled with a proper cut off valve, two make sure you close the bottle valve when filling, three do not in any circumstances try to fill standard bottles. Sorry Rupert but I did warn you that I was not the brightest shilling in the purse :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Syd, I cannot see the difference between Gaslow or another brand of refillable cylinder just because they are refilled via a slightly different procedure. Your procedure does carry additional risks though, mostly through having to disconnect a high pressure hose full of liquid LPG. You claim that the volume is little greater than the volume which escapes when disconnecting the filler gun but I beg to differ on this, it is a significantly larger volume of gas: The gun has a shut off valve built into it that closes when you release the locking lever, the actual amount of liquid LPG released is tiny, about one or two CCs. Liquid Propane expands by 274 times its volume when released to the atmosphere so those two CCs become 548 CCs of gaseous propane, just over half a litre of gas. Your filler hose will be either 0.5 metre, 1.0 metre or 1.5 metre in length and has a bore of 12mm, I'll assume a 1 metre hose as you described it as about 2 1/2 feet in length (although I actually beleive its far more likely to be a 1.5 metre hose). I make that to be 1131.12 CCs or 1.312 litres. When your hose is disconnected the liquid LPG will be released to the atmosphere and expand by the same 274 times creating a low level cloud of highly flammable gas to the tune of 309.948 litres. I'd call that a significant leakage and an awful lot more than the little whiff released when you disconnect the gun. The two major differences between your procedure and a "normal" refillable system fitted into a gas locker is that your cylinder is not restrained in your car during the filling, it is not in a vented enclosure and you will release some 300 plus litres of gaseous LPG when you disconnect your fill hose. The "normal" installation has the bottles secured in a purpose made enclosure that is vented to the atmosphere and the only leakage will be about half a litre of gaseous LPG as the filler gun is disconnected. Personally I'd say your procedure carries a lot more risk. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My calculation is a little different Dave. vol of hose (3.14 x 0.012 x 0.012)/4 x 1 = 0.00011304 cubic metres. x 1000 = 0.11304 litres. x 274 = 30.97 litres of expanded gas. Ok, it is stil a lot and does not alter the principle of what you have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Hi Dave and Brambles Thanks for that, this is what we need in our efforts to work out just how much risk is attached to refilling bottles. There can be no argument about those figures and if you are right Dave about the length of hose being that bit longer then the volume of gas released is greater by about half again, up to about 45 litres of expanded gas, I did say in one of my posts that it is suprising just how much gas is in that pipe and I was right it is suprising. I release this gas slowly so it is not let out in a dense cloud but in a trickle as it were, takes two or three mins to empty my hose. When this was demonstrated to me by the bottle supplier he did simply release this amount of gas without a second thought there and then in his yard at the pump and from that I took it to be not really very risky At the moment I cannot think of any way that this amount can be reduced because you have to have the hose leading into the car. Just as a side issue though, my bottle is restrained in the car but I take the point that most probably many other people's bottles will not be. Now, in a semi isolated area (well certainly in a quiet area and away from people) just how much of a risk will that release of gas be. As this is the only risk involved in refilling bottles I will have to think about it for a while to see if I can find a way of minimising the risk or try to evaluate just how much of a risk it actually is. Unless of course you can tell us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Some interesting....and silly name calling posts on here but putting that aside I was trained at Cardington (industrial gaseous production plant) aeons ago and have seen the results of those people who ignore the inherent dangers of bypassing/modifying industry tested and approved systems. For those of you who wish to invoke 'Heath Robinson' (to a lesser or greater degree) to save a few pennies then there is a strong likelyhood that it will bite you at some point.....I just hope you don't end up taking other innocent bystanders with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-28 10:50 PM rupert123 - 2012-01-28 9:52 PM Syd I am simply not getting through am I. I HAVE NO PROBLEM with you or anyone else self filling a refillable bottle regardless of the make, that is what it is made for. I find your thing that one make, Gaslow, is somehow used in a differant way a little strange but leaveing that aside I self fill mine, they just happen to be fixed in place. However the people who self fill with a standard bottle cannot do it for the same reason, that is to be able to get gas anywhere they wish, they just do it to save some money, why else? Guidelines no problem, one buy a bottle or two that are made to be self filled with a proper cut off valve, two make sure you close the bottle valve when filling, three do not in any circumstances try to fill standard bottles. Sorry Rupert but I did warn you that I was not the brightest shilling in the purse :$ No need to say sorry Syd, it is sometimes hard to get a point across in type, it is for me anyway, so easy to miss-understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Brambles - 2012-01-29 9:32 AM My calculation is a little different Dave. vol of hose (3.14 x 0.012 x 0.012)/4 x 1 = 0.00011304 cubic metres. x 1000 = 0.11304 litres. x 274 = 30.97 litres of expanded gas. Ok, it is stil a lot and does not alter the principle of what you have said. You are correct Jon, my mistake with a decimal point positioning error but as you say still a large amount, oh and I use 3.142 as Pi which makes a tiny difference. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrf494g Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 "that other bloke, whatever his name is who fills bottles with no safeguards. He asks me how I know people just weigh them and then proceeds to tell me that is eactly what he does. As I said fill it up weigh it and hope for the best" the post quoted above is simply incorrect there is scaremongering and there is factual discussion. "fills bottles with no safeguards" - I check and check again, using safety procedure - please read the posts for all the safeguards that are incorporated - surely I don't need to repeat all the elements that have been posted a number times in this thread. "Just weigh them" - Firstly, in commercial filling stations the primary measure for filling is weighing. If you have a problem with weighing, then you should never go near a commercially filled campingaz or calor bottle. They have been "just weighed". As I posted earlier, weighing with a safety checked spring balance is the most accurate method of knowing what is in a bottle. If you know a better method please post it, as I would like a factual disscussion. "Just weigh them" - secondly, it is not "just" weight. The swirl of the bottle gives a clear indication of the vapour gap within the bottle. I think most people can, with a swirl of a 907 campingaz bottle tell if there is a gap within it. It's a good secondary check given that the first vital weight has been taken. "Hope for the best" - As I posted earlier this has never been said by any "self-fill" poster - quite the opposite, and yet you invent this "as a fact" and repeat it. It's hardly part of a factual discussion. It's scaremongering. You also state in your posts that I fill from a 47kg propane bottle. This is a dangerous falsehood. Please read my posts accurately. I have never posted that, and I strongly advise against it as the weight of such bottles is enormous. What I did post was to point out that when I have 2 X 47kg delivered for domestic central heating . . . I connect them myself because there is a history of the "professional" leaving a slow leak which looses me £100 of gas over a few days and when I connect them together and to the house regulator I am doing no more than is needed to self fill smaller bottles. ie you are connecting bottles together and allowing balancing between. My posts have been about the safety procedure to self fill from smaller bottles. Please keep your posts factual and accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 A useful site for gas information http://www.swift-owners-club.com/index.html Now I reply to Dave and Brambles This reply is not really very satisfatory because I solicited this information from a a guy working for a major bottled gas supplier in the UK on the provisio that they were not mentioned. The guy I was speaking to said that he would get the sack if I did so but he worked in their technical dept. I hope you can accept this as I am only interested in finding out the level of risk that I am taking I am not interested in twisting the facts to suit my particular practice, I want to know the truth of the matter. Propane Gas ignition point is between 2% and 10% density of gas to air and the amount of gas that I am releasing into the atmosphere, (according to Dave and Brambles calculations) providing the temperature of the day was around 20 degrees, would take about 2 nanoseconds to turn from gas liquid to expanded gas and even if released in one sharp burst would disipate quickly enough that it would not reach the 2% to 10% density that would be required for ignition and if released slowly it would be even less likely to reach the level of density required for ignition. Different calculations would apply if the release were within a confined space. Now to me this is VERY GOOD news because on the surface it supports the case that refilling bottles in the way that I do it and venting that pipe in an open and quiet place is pretty well without a very high risk factor but as you will quickly note it is not an official company statement it is one mans opinion. I am not under the impression that this eliminates ALL risk because I do not think it will because I would suspect that at the time of release, in the close proximity to the bottle the ignition level must surely be reached but remind you that under or over that level it wont ignite. Plus if it does ignite the flame will travel at around two miles per second thus limiting the amount of oportunity available to you to turn off the loose pipe :D Now, Can we accept this or not and if not why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Tongue in cheek Syd, Darn that explains why I can never get my hob to light becuase the gas duffuses so fast I cannot get the right mixture. On a serious note - BS. There the point at which you get a combustable mixture will indeed be just a few inches to feet from where you release the gas. It is to complicated for me to quickly work out the true distances and depends on the speed at which you release the propane anyway. Now, do you use a metal spanner or a plastic coated or plastic one? What happens if you get a spark between the spanner and the nut. This could be due to you slipping and creating a spark through friction (unlikely) or from a static discharge (likely). When you release the gas the friction of the gas against the components will create a charge, and this needs to disperse. The cylinder could become charged up and when you next connect the spanner to the nut you get a spark. This could ignite the gas. Now, I do not know what this charge will be and whether it will have enough energy to cause igition, Food for thought. Hence why you often see spanners attached to cylinders with a metal chain, or a non metallic spanner is used, or indeed a plastic thumb wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hi Brambles Good point about the spanner and the bottle becoming charged, I can easilly accept that but it sounds to me as though you don't REALLY accept the theory put forward or at least not all of it. I use a metal spanner Can one really get a plastic spanner to do the job. On the site link that I posted the pipe that I use is the first one and the second one listed fits the propane bottles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 More direct link http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/gas_matters.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-30 11:49 AM Can one really get a plastic spanner to do the job. Actually the safest spanner to use is a bronze one as is used in the gas industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-30 10:06 AM A useful site for gas information http://www.swift-owners-club.com/index.html Now I reply to Dave and Brambles This reply is not really very satisfatory because I solicited this information from a a guy working for a major bottled gas supplier in the UK on the provisio that they were not mentioned. The guy I was speaking to said that he would get the sack if I did so but he worked in their technical dept. I hope you can accept this as I am only interested in finding out the level of risk that I am taking I am not interested in twisting the facts to suit my particular practice, I want to know the truth of the matter. Propane Gas ignition point is between 2% and 10% density of gas to air and the amount of gas that I am releasing into the atmosphere, (according to Dave and Brambles calculations) providing the temperature of the day was around 20 degrees, would take about 2 nanoseconds to turn from gas liquid to expanded gas and even if released in one sharp burst would disipate quickly enough that it would not reach the 2% to 10% density that would be required for ignition and if released slowly it would be even less likely to reach the level of density required for ignition. Different calculations would apply if the release were within a confined space. Now to me this is VERY GOOD news because on the surface it supports the case that refilling bottles in the way that I do it and venting that pipe in an open and quiet place is pretty well without a very high risk factor but as you will quickly note it is not an official company statement it is one mans opinion. I am not under the impression that this eliminates ALL risk because I do not think it will because I would suspect that at the time of release, in the close proximity to the bottle the ignition level must surely be reached but remind you that under or over that level it wont ignite. Plus if it does ignite the flame will travel at around two miles per second thus limiting the amount of oportunity available to you to turn off the loose pipe :D Now, Can we accept this or not and if not why not. Well there's one easy way to find out Syd, place a lighted candle three feet from your cylinder on the ground and undo the nut! How lucky do you feel?:D (tongue firmly in cheek) I do not entirely accept your man's point of view, for one thing, as I've already said, the liquid Propane will expand to 274 times its liquid volume. This means that the area around your gas cylinder will quickly become flooded with a high concentration of propane gas, potentially 30 litres worth. If the ignition concentration is as low as 2% in the atmosphere then there would need to be about 1500 litres of air about (this of course assumes total release of the liquid propane and I fully accept that you don't just cut the pipe and dump it all in one rush). The reality is that you are probably on the borderline of ignition concentration within a radius of about three feet depending on a variety of factors, wind direction and strength being one. Your procedure as described is probably as safe as you can be under every day circumstances, the problem arises when someone else tries to follow your lead but thinks they can short-cut the safety issues, disconnecting the fill hose while the cylinder is still in the car for example because its suddenly started raining. Our local bulk gas depot has a ban on spark ignition vehicles on site while their bulk tankers are delivering, many oil refineries have a solid ban on spark ignition engines on site period! Many if not all oil refineries have a blanket ban on any source of ignition on site, cigarette lighters, matches etc. Using welding or cutting equipment on these sites involves a huge amount of paperwork and rigorous safety procedures for a very good reason, fumes from the processes on site can build up easily to ignition concentration. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hi Dave Thanks for the reply, I have been doing quiet a bit of digging and in the main this seems to be the main points that I have unearthed. I said in reply to you and Derek that I thought that maybe the 2% to 10% mix must arise close to the bottle when the release takes place but aparently that is not the case as you will see. From http://www.coenergy.net/propane-information "Propane gas is stored and handled as a liquid when under pressure inside an LP-gas container. It vaporizes, changing from a liquid to a vapor when released to the atmosphere at a temperature above -44° F. When released into the atmosphere, the gas condenses moisture from the air and thus appears as a white cloud or fog at the point of discharge. The outer edge of this white fog is flammable and will flash if brought in contact with a source of ignition". and "The strict safety codes mandated by the propane industry are further enhanced by propane's naturally safe features. For starters, propane has a narrow range of flammability, meaning the propane/air mix must contain from 2.2% to 9.6% propane vapor to ignite. Any less than that and the mixture is too lean to burn; any more than that and the mixture is too rich to burn". and "Also, propane will not ignite when combined with air unless the source of ignition reaches at least 940F. In contrast, gasoline will ignite when the source of ignition reaches 430F to 500F". and "The odds of a person dying from a direct result of a propane transportation or storage accident involving loss of cargo are about the same as those of getting struck by an airplane falling from the sky". and "If liquid propane leaks, it vaporizes and dissipates into the air". And just to give a bit more credance to that http://www.propanecouncil.org/what-is-propane/facts/ Propane has a narrow range of flammability when compared with other petroleum products. In order to ignite, the propane-air mix must contain from 2.2 to 9.6 percent propane vapor. If the mixture contains less than 2.2 percent gas, it is too lean to burn. If it contains more than 9.6 percent, it is too rich to burn. "• Propane won’t ignite when combined with air unless the source of ignition reaches at least 940 degrees Fahrenheit. In contrast, gasoline will ignite when the source of ignition reaches only 430 to 500 degrees Fahrenheit. • If liquid propane leaks, it doesn’t puddle but instead vaporizes and dissipates into the air." I give just two of several that I found that bear more or less the same information to show that I am not trying to be selective in favour of what I do. So we now have a white cloud that in the most is not flamable, the flamable parts will not burn intil it is exposed to something with a temperature of at least 940 degrees farenheight. From experience I know that this white cloud rises quiet quickly so I think that the chances of the small perimeter part of the white cloud that is of the flash point density meeting up with something bearing that much heat has just got to be very slim. I will definately NOT be putting a candle three feet away from my bottle that's for sure :D :D :D :D :D The biggest risk is human error as you say http://www.nationalgasco.net/portals/0/Characteristics%20of%20LPGas.pdf http://www.propanesafety.com/uploadedFiles/Safety/Workforce_Training_programs/Propane_Emergencies_(PE)_Program/MTK_02-Properties.pdf http://www.directpropaneservices.com/SAFETYINFO/DANGERSOFPROPANE/tabid/140/Default.aspx http://www.propane101.com/aboutpropane.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Blimey, you chaps are having a wonderful time with your re-fillables! :-) Makes me quite relieved I just use exchange cylinders. :-D Syd - 2012-01-28 7:20 PM Thanks for the questions I will do my best to answer them Peter Well all I can say is that I have never seen or heard of a petrol pump not stopping pumping fuel when the tank is full, I am most certainly not saying anything detrmental, but I have never seen or heard of it. Simply because I am curious could I ask if anyone has had this happen to them or even heard of it happening................................ If you mean what you appear to mean, Syd, then I have had that experience, and been liberally splashed with diesel to prove it. Only once that I can recall, autumn 2010 in Greece, at a small roadside filling station somewhere in the Mani. Quite simply, the cut-off on the pistol had failed and, so long as the trigger was pulled, the fuel flowed. I should have been alerted by the fuel spill already on the ground, but assumed that was someone being careless, so I added to it! It's surprising how quickly you can let go the trigger when the tank blows back in that way! Smelly onward drive! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi Brian Yes we have had a good old natter but the point has been to put to rest the scaremongering and downright exagerations attached to the risks of refilling gas bottles and thanks to all of the other posters I believe we have now achieved that and proven that the risks are nowhere as high as it was thought by many to be. Don't expect to have convinced everyone but the pretty conclusive evidence is there in amongst the posts for all to see The beauty of this thread is that in the main it has been conducted in a very good nature wich is unusual for this forum when something is discussed that has such a sensitive nature as bottle filling I suspect your gas use is very low and so you do not run out of gas but our gas use is high and we do run out of gas and found that it was VERY expensive to then get some and so rather than run out again we refill. What would you do if you ran out of gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-31 10:02 AM What would you do if you ran out of gas.Same as most exchangers, including me (at present)........get another cylinder on the campsite or nearest town. In fact, with two cylinders, you can get the replacement when the first one empties so you dont actually run out of gas. It is easy with Calor, as it is with the popular exchanges in france and Spain. It is the cost per kg which is off putting for some. Lifting a 6kg cylinder shouldnt present a problem for most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 bolero boy - 2012-01-31 10:21 AM Syd - 2012-01-31 10:02 AM What would you do if you ran out of gas.Same as most exchangers, including me (at present)........get another cylinder on the campsite or nearest town. In fact, with two cylinders, you can get the replacement when the first one empties so you dont actually run out of gas. It is easy with Calor, as it is with the popular exchanges in france and Spain. It is the cost per kg which is off putting for some. Lifting a 6kg cylinder shouldnt present a problem for most. This thread now seems to have gone full circle but this post seems strange. Since when has it been easy to just exchange cylinders around europe? The only easy was is fixed refillables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-31 10:02 AM.................I suspect your gas use is very low and so you do not run out of gas but our gas use is high and we do run out of gas and found that it was VERY expensive to then get some and so rather than run out again we refill. What would you do if you ran out of gas. Agreed, Syd, and deliberately so. 13kg lasts us about 12 weeks of continual, touring, use. Most of our trips are of 8 - 10 weeks, and we carry 2 x 13kg cylinders, one UK Calor, one French Butagaz. All our trips touch France somewhere, so changing the Butagaz is only a case of finding a supermarket. All our trips begin and end in UK, so changing the Calor is just a matter of a trip down the road. So, I'm going to temp the Gods, and say we shall not run out of gas! However, were we to do so, we should just have to eat out more - and otherwise eat a lot more salad! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasantplucker Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 New product, Safefill refillable gas bottles. Se through material so you can see how much is left or when to stop filling. Not used it myself, but considering a system which allows me to fill bottles in situ. Don't have space for twin bottles. I believe there is another similar system. All issue warnings that petrol/lpg stations may not allow you to fill these cylinders in the belief that they are normal Calor ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.