Bulletguy Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Many people feel disillusioned and unhappy with this country for a variety of reasons.....not just the weather! But last night I watched a programme on BBC2 which didn't half stir the dormant patriotism within me and actually made me sit up and think.......and this REALLY IS in this country! It was about the McLaren factory in Surrey and whether a petrol head or not, it's worth watching to see engineering at it's very best in a factory environment on a par with top class Hospital Operating theatre rooms! Attention to detail in everything borders on the obsessive where the Chairman, Ron Dennis even notices a cracked floor tile which annoys him because, "tiling comes in batches and the colour will vary".....and just to back that up he immediately points out a recently replaced tile. A worthwhile watch as this is the only chance you will ever get to see inside this place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017t722 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Bulletguy - 2011-11-21 5:37 PMMany people feel disillusioned and unhappy with this country for a variety of reasons.....not just the weather! But last night I watched a programme on BBC2 which didn't half stir the dormant patriotism within me and actually made me sit up and think.......and this REALLY IS in this country! It was about the McLaren factory in Surrey and whether a petrol head or not, it's worth watching to see engineering at it's very best in a factory environment on a par with top class Hospital Operating theatre rooms! Attention to detail in everything borders on the obsessive where the Chairman, Ron Dennis even notices a cracked floor tile which annoys him because, "tiling comes in batches and the colour will vary".....and just to back that up he immediately points out a recently replaced tile.A worthwhile watch as this is the only chance you will ever get to see inside this place.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017t722Doesn't look like a proper workshop:D.............where's all the crud, the trip hazards, empty cups, knackered tools, etc etc...........(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Bulletguy - 2011-11-21 5:37 PM Many people feel disillusioned and unhappy with this country for a variety of reasons.....not just the weather! But last night I watched a programme on BBC2 which didn't half stir the dormant patriotism within me and actually made me sit up and think.......and this REALLY IS in this country! It was about the McLaren factory in Surrey and whether a petrol head or not, it's worth watching to see engineering at it's very best in a factory environment on a par with top class Hospital Operating theatre rooms! Attention to detail in everything borders on the obsessive where the Chairman, Ron Dennis even notices a cracked floor tile which annoys him because, "tiling comes in batches and the colour will vary".....and just to back that up he immediately points out a recently replaced tile. A worthwhile watch as this is the only chance you will ever get to see inside this place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017t722 Oh yes! I want one of the orange metallic ones! It was a tantalising peep into what can be achieved - and what a truly brave investment. I'd love to see that kind of excellence being achieved in everything produced in this country. If we could even get close to that, instead of applying our all too common, "now how can we get that made on the cheap" approach, we'd have the finest manufacturing base in Europe. Truly, these vehicles appear far closer to the original objectives of Rolls Royce, than Rolls Royce itself now achieves. In saying that, I take it as read that they will function as well as they look. I just hope the drivers are as carefully briefed and trained as the makers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote Pelmetman "Doesn't look like a proper workshop.............where's all the crud, the trip hazards, empty cups, knackered tools, etc etc..........." And the big nudie calendars on the walls. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-11-21 6:04 PM Bulletguy - 2011-11-21 5:37 PM Many people feel disillusioned and unhappy with this country for a variety of reasons.....not just the weather! But last night I watched a programme on BBC2 which didn't half stir the dormant patriotism within me and actually made me sit up and think.......and this REALLY IS in this country! It was about the McLaren factory in Surrey and whether a petrol head or not, it's worth watching to see engineering at it's very best in a factory environment on a par with top class Hospital Operating theatre rooms! Attention to detail in everything borders on the obsessive where the Chairman, Ron Dennis even notices a cracked floor tile which annoys him because, "tiling comes in batches and the colour will vary".....and just to back that up he immediately points out a recently replaced tile. A worthwhile watch as this is the only chance you will ever get to see inside this place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017t722 Oh yes! I want one of the orange metallic ones! It was a tantalising peep into what can be achieved - and what a truly brave investment. I'd love to see that kind of excellence being achieved in everything produced in this country. If we could even get close to that, instead of applying our all too common, "now how can we get that made on the cheap" approach, we'd have the finest manufacturing base in Europe. Truly, these vehicles appear far closer to the original objectives of Rolls Royce, than Rolls Royce itself now achieves. In saying that, I take it as read that they will function as well as they look. I just hope the drivers are as carefully briefed and trained as the makers!If your criteria were the norm Brian, a Mini would cost half a million pounds. Fortunately the majority of us live in the real word. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-11-21 5:50 PM Doesn't look like a proper workshop:D.............where's all the crud, the trip hazards, empty cups, knackered tools, etc etc...........(lol) It made me shudder to think of the environment I worked in for the past thirty years.....and that was working on a daily basis with 'stuff' (can't give detail so use your imagination ;-) ) which could blow you to bits in the blink of an eye. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-11-21 6:04 PM I'd love to see that kind of excellence being achieved in everything produced in this country. More the pity it isn't. Quite shameful to see how we've allowed the engineering industry to get into such a state of decline, but also other factory environments. I live in an area commonly known as The Potteries as it used to be the centre of Bone China and Earthenware pottery manufacturing. Most have now disappeared but even when running, the factories were disgusting filthy places with ageing crude machinery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I hope they have checked for reverse judder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 peter - 2011-11-21 6:11 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-11-21 6:04 PM Oh yes! I want one of the orange metallic ones! It was a tantalising peep into what can be achieved - and what a truly brave investment. I'd love to see that kind of excellence being achieved in everything produced in this country. If we could even get close to that, instead of applying our all too common, "now how can we get that made on the cheap" approach, we'd have the finest manufacturing base in Europe. Truly, these vehicles appear far closer to the original objectives of Rolls Royce, than Rolls Royce itself now achieves. In saying that, I take it as read that they will function as well as they look. I just hope the drivers are as carefully briefed and trained as the makers!If your criteria were the norm Brian, a Mini would cost half a million pounds. Fortunately the majority of us live in the real word. :D Ah, but you see it wouldn't, because a Mini (now BMW, German) is a mass produced car, whereas these McLarens are small volume specialist cars intended for a very different market. My point is not that all things should be produced in the same way as the McLaren, but that product excellence, and not price, should be the priority. That has been our mistake over the years, and explains why Sir Alec Issigonis' invention (and far too many others) was plagued with problems from the outset, and was eventually sold to the Germans, who re-engineered it properly, and are now selling back to us the vehicle it would have been had we just set to and done the job properly. So far as I can tell, the Germans are not woolly headed idealists, but fairly hard headed industrialists, who have more often succeeded where we have failed. I thought that, in fact, was rather obvious. Don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-11-21 6:39 PM So far as I can tell, the Germans are not woolly headed idealists, but fairly hard headed industrialists, who have more often succeeded where we have failed. I thought that, in fact, was rather obvious. Don't you?I'm not convinced German engineering is much better than ours..............................but their propaganda certainly is;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I only caught bits of the programme..but I wonder just how much of the car is actually manufactured over here,rather than just assembled?...as I noticed they said that the carbon fibre "tub"(..which is a pretty pivotal chunk..!),was made in Austria! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-11-21 6:39 PM That has been our mistake over the years, and explains why Sir Alec Issigonis' invention (and far too many others) was plagued with problems from the outset, and was eventually sold to the Germans, who re-engineered it properly, and are now selling back to us the vehicle it would have been had we just set to and done the job properly. I think you're stretching that argument a bit far. If BMW had further develeped the concepts of "gearbox in sump" or "hydrolastic (hydrospastic) suspension", then it might be valid. You'd have to search pretty hard to find any "genetic material" in the current Mini that was traceable back to the original. About the only connection is that it is a bit "look-alike" (albeit over 2ft longer and almost a foot wider - not much "Mini" about that :-S ). BMW have simpy capitalised on the name and a bit of nostalgia with what is essentially a fairly conventional car (something the original mini most certainly wasn't). It also carries a most un-Minilike price tag, and amongst owners, opinion appears to be divided on the subject of engineering excellence. My first car was a (real) Mini, and I remember it with a certain amount of ambivalence :-S . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 My fault no doubt, but you're taking me a tad too literally. Of course the modern Mini isn't a linear development of the original, but the originals (not so much the later versions), were pretty awful. Seams the wrong way round so that the floor pan filled with water, a gearbox in the engine sump, so that neither component got the right lubrication, re-use of an off the shelf block that was pretty much past its sell by date even then, and little to no proper development for years. It suffered from a lack of investment necessary to allow it to be what it could have been, and lacked the development to evolve it into what the modern model is. Conceptually brilliant in so many ways, but let down by poor production engineering and control, and pretty duff quality control just about everywhere. Cheap, and great fun, but never what it could have been. Blimey, it took them years to work out it cost more to make than they sold it for! The Mini, however, is merely my metaphor for British Leyland, and hence for so much of British manufacturing - but especially our car industry - and also for BMW, and hence for German engineering, and especially their car industry. In the final analysis, I'm not talking about the individual products, but who emerged the winner, and to some extent perhaps, why. So Britain all bad, Germany all good? Of course not, which is why I was so taken with the McLaren Porsche-eater! If we are really serious about re-establishing our engineering base, and that is something I am really quite passionate about, we need far more McLaren, and a whole lot less BL. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Methinks you put your views forward somewhat less metaphorically than you often do, Brian B-) Nonetheless, they are somewhat ironic, given the roots from which BMW cars originally spung, and the original naming of the Mini as an Austin Seven. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Yes, and that was really to point I was driving at. The one developed and prospered, the other had its moments of brilliance but ultimately failed. Years ago I read an article that postulated the ideal car would have a French suspension and presswork, an Italian engine, a German gearbox and transmission, a British designed interior, but would be built in a German factory. That article failed to spot the rise of the Japanese. Still, came close, didn't we! :-) Cars are still made (or at least assembled) in the UK, but very little of the productive capacity is now British owned. It is mostly French, German, or Japanese - with Ford turning out mainly engines and certain Transits. Seems to be much the same story in almost every manufacturing sector. We innovated, we designed good products, but we failed to produce them efficiently, and to a consistently acceptable quality, and now seem mainly to buy back what we invented. So many excuses are put forward to explain why that is: from excessive health and safety regulation, to overbearing European employment legislation, to failures of management, to fluctuating currency values, to inadequate investment, to excessive diversion of revenues to shareholder profit, and the short termism of markets. And yet, I believe it is still true that the average Brit works longer hours for less pay than his counterpart in countries where manufacturing is buoyant, and the overall standard of living higher. The explanation? Evasive, it seems, which is even more worrying. Others, working in similar national and international business environments, seem to have made their manufacturing sectors work to greater advantage than we have, and no one seems to know why. So, that programme, however glossed it may have been, was quite uplifting. I was surprised at what I saw, and surprised at how enthused it left me feeling - and that was as nothing compared to the obvious pride and satisfaction beaming from those working on the cars. I just hope their investment pays off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 My experience in British industry was that there has always been a ' them and us ' divide between the managers and the 'people who do the work'. Neither side respected or trusted the other. Hopefully it is not as bad now as it used to be - but now of course it may be too late. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Hi, I totally agree with you the "them and us" divide is still in my opinion a real problem, I do wonder if there should be some teaching in school on how the capitalist system works and the understanding of money and how it is used to build a society. I think it will be a difficult subject to explain especially in the balance between entrepreneur and the fat cat, at what point does the entrepreneur become the fat cat ? malc d - 2011-11-22 11:47 AM My experience in British industry was that there has always been a ' them and us ' divide between the managers and the 'people who do the work'. Neither side respected or trusted the other. Hopefully it is not as bad now as it used to be - but now of course it may be too late. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 malc d - 2011-11-22 11:47 AM My experience in British industry was that there has always been a ' them and us ' divide between the managers and the 'people who do the work'. Neither side respected or trusted the other. Hopefully it is not as bad now as it used to be - but now of course it may be too late. :-( That's the problem with British unions thinking there is a them and us. People we should remember we are all part of the team. And does it matter which side you are on? Although unions would rather be on the other side to be honest, but you make your bed and have to lie in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 It's just struck me that because I'm over 70 and a diabetic I can't be trusted to drive a motorhome over 3.5 ton but if I want to drive a 200 mph super car that's just fine. I think I'll go for one of the orange ones as well. Wonder where the dog will sit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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