Riots: Won't they ever learn?

[Symbol Owner]

Thanks Brian,

 

Spot on, of course -- Whither utopia?

 

Cheers,

 

Colin.

[Lord Braykewynde]

Another long winded post, yes, it's not only I who suffer from flattulence, from BK.

Two short paragraphs at the most would have explained exactly the point he was trying to make, not a chapter. At least his disciple Symbol shows he cares for the environment by not wasting so much monitor ink although most of what he posts is drivel :-)

BTW Symbol, you still haven't told me how it will stop rioting by the police not being heavy handed when it was clearly reported, even by your beloved Guardian and BBC, that the police did exactly that, stood back and let it carry on. Didn't stop it though did it? All it did was spread throughout the country because the police were doing bugger all.

Just let us all be thankful that the likes of Symbol and BK have no control over political decisions and I bet those who lost their livelihoods and homes would like thank them for their idea of how it should have been dealt with. It buggers belief *-)

[CliveH]

"Beggars belief" LB - "bEggars" ................................................ :-S

 

On second thoughts B-)

 

I like your "spelling" better (lol) (lol)

[Symbol Owner]

 

 

C.

 

This from someone who called me a Northern Caveman ?

 

That's because you have 'previous' sonny boy! :D

 

Cheers,keep drinking the Yorkshire pi$$ that calls itself beer!

 

Colin.

 

 

[Symbol Owner]

Where did I say that the police should not be 'heavy-handed', Lord B.? Of course they should use those means that they currently have at their disposal, to the best of their effectiveness, BUT, if they do not have the manpower and inteligence/communications equipment to keep track of fast moving individuals/groups bent on trouble, then, in my view,and more importantly, in the opinion (which I have already quoted) of a very senior and most highly experienced police officer,weaponry of the sort used in Greece, or heaven help us, Syria, recently, is only going to foment serious civil disorder -- it came close enough to us in Northern Ireland, do we really want that kind of thing here? No, the police were outwitted and undermanned, that much is self-evident, and needs addressing. The main import of the 30-year historical record appears to be the complete rift between Heseltine and the treasury and its ministers regarding the money (£100m) that Hezza felt was needed to address the years of neglect that had helped to bring about the state of the populace of Liverpool and other 'inner cities', and the miserable 15m that was actually granted -- a 'sticking plaster' on a gigantic 'boil' destined to erupt again during a time of economic hardship.

Now that we seejm to be faced with a serious recession, all governments (of every stripe) seem to be able to do is, like Clive's famous 'Ad Hominem' -- label/criminalise the individual(s) i.e. objectivise the problem instead of taking the subjective, in-depth view.

 

I hope that this addresses your concerns, your flatulence (please note: one 'f' only). You still seem to

be unable to spell 'arse' in your coprophiliac diatribes!

 

Cheers,

 

Colin.

 

 

[Symbol Owner]

Sorry -- my typo -- I did, of course, mean one 't' in 'flatulence' NOT one 'f'.

 

C.

[Lord Braykewynde]

Symbol Owner - 2011-12-31 12:14 PM

 

Sorry -- my typo -- I did, of course, mean one 't' in 'flatulence' NOT one 'f'.

 

C.

 

Oh dear, where's the Gump when you need him :-S

 

I suppose the following is apt regarding the title of this thread ...

 

Those who throw stones ......

 

 

Heh! heh! heh! :->

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2011-12-30 7:57 PM

 

To all those people who say "more force is wrong when dealing with a riot" I would ask a simple question - what would you do? - allow the rioters to have a free reign?..............................

I think the answer to this has more to do with the kind of force that should be used, than with whether force should be used. Initially, and for at least 48 hours thereafter, the police were caught on the hop. They did not respond adequately because they at first failed to recognise what was happening, and then were slow to mobilise. For some reason, it took public outcry at their inactivity to shock them into the proper action, which was to flood the areas affected, and others deemed likely to be affected, with properly equipped officers. Then, the riots stopped.

 

So, to my mind the question that needs to be answered is why were the police so slow on the uptake?

 

Water cannon, guns, tasers etc would all have been completely useless under the actual circumstances in all but a very few instances, and attempts at their use would, IMO, have been liable to inflame and provoke rather than to quell. Those who see their use as solutions, IMO, know not of what they speak.

 

The eventual solution was what was needed much faster at the beginning: the use of large numbers of properly equipped police. That is force enough, it just has to be used as, and when, it is needed.

 

So, again to my mind, the second question that needs to be addressed is why were the numbers not more readily available?

 

Has this something to do with reducing numbers of police in favour of lower taxes? Have the recently announced cuts demoralised the forces, so that their responses were sluggish and reluctant? Have we already too few police to do the job when rioting erupts, or are the measures for bringing officers onto shift in emergencies inadequate?

 

My suspicion is that the answer lies somewhere in latter point. Police numbers were savagely cut under Thatcher, and their role has considerably changed since, so I am not convinced that their are enough, or not enough available on demand. Policing is as much about theatre, about being seen, as it is about detecting and arresting. The former is pro-active prevention, the latter merely post hoc reaction. IMO, we have veered too far towards reaction, and need rather more pro-action.

[Brian Kirby]

Lord Braykewynde - 2011-12-31 9:58 AM

 

Another long winded post, yes, it's not only I who suffer from flatulence, from BK.

Two short paragraphs at the most would have explained exactly the point he was trying to make, not a chapter. At least his disciple Symbol shows he cares for the environment by not wasting so much monitor ink although most of what he posts is drivel :-)

BTW Symbol, you still haven't told me how it will stop rioting by the police not being heavy handed when it was clearly reported, even by your beloved Guardian and BBC, that the police did exactly that, stood back and let it carry on. Didn't stop it though did it? All it did was spread throughout the country because the police were doing bugger all.

Just let us all be thankful that the likes of Symbol and BK have no control over political decisions and I bet those who lost their livelihoods and homes would like thank them for their idea of how it should have been dealt with. It buggers belief *-)

Ah, to be able to see the world in one dimensional, three word sentence, terms! :-D

 

What a huge advantage that must be, especially if one believes that by calling one's opposition long winded, or wet, one has somehow demolished their arguments. I have an image of his Lordship, just before the outbreak of WW2, standing on the shore at Dover, looking across the channel, and shouting "Hitler, you are a long winded waste of printing ink". War would never have commenced, obviously. :-D

 

Still too long? Sorry. You post your way, I'll stick to mine. I just can't communicate as I want in kindergarten language, so I'm afraid you'll have to put up with big school words. :-D

[Syd]

 

Hi Brian

Your posts very much remind me of "Alister Cook" in "Letter from America"

Longish introduction but the sharp message is always in there

 

You should not change at all, ever

 

All the best for 2012 to you and yours

[Brian Kirby]

Syd - 2011-12-31 1:56 PM

 

 

Hi Brian

Your posts very much remind me of "Alister Cook" in "Letter from America"

Longish introduction but the sharp message is always in there

 

You should not change at all, ever

 

All the best for 2012 to you and yours

Steady on Syd! :-) Very kind. I always enjoyed his pieces, praise indeed. My good wishes for 2012 in return.

[BGD]

Syd - 2011-12-31 1:56 PM

 

 

Hi Brian

Your posts very much remind me of "Alister Cook" in "Letter from America"

Longish introduction but the sharp message is always in there

 

You should not change at all, ever

 

All the best for 2012 to you and yours

 

 

 

 

Made me smile Syd.

 

Nicely put sir.

 

 

[nightrider]

IMO the police were overwhelmed in the recent riots, at the end of the day the job of the police is to, prevent, detect and to arrest wrongdoers, surely there should be a branch of the armed forces to deal with large scale riots.

Rioters are mainly criminal typs with no respect for the police, but most if not all people have respect for our armed forces, so what would a rioter do if confronted by a tough tooled up soldier wearing all his stab and bullet proof vest and a baton?? The police are trained up to a degree but not to the standard of a soldier.

[Symbol Owner]

knight of the road - 2011-12-31 4:01 PM

 

IMO the police were overwhelmed in the recent riots, at the end of the day the job of the police is to, prevent, detect and to arrest wrongdoers, surely there should be a branch of the armed forces to deal with large scale riots.

Rioters are mainly criminal typs with no respect for the police, but most if not all people have respect for our armed forces, so what would a rioter do if confronted by a tough tooled up soldier wearing all his stab and bullet proof vest and a baton?? The police are trained up to a degree but not to the standard of a soldier.

 

Sorry, Malcolm,

I don't agree, Soldiers are trained (and equipped) to kill -- that's why Egypt & Syria are using them to kill their own people -- our trained 'riot officers'/police can damage and cause death quite well enough, e.g. the newspaper-seller who had nothing to do with an anti-cuts demonstration, but died nevertheless, when a special task-force policeman applied excessive force.The use of the armed forces in Northern Ireland was a total diaster -- do you want that kind of thing on this side of the water? Put your 'thinking cap' back on Malc.

 

Cheers and a happy new year to (almost) all,

 

Colin.

[Symbol Owner]

Syd - 2011-12-31 1:56 PM

 

 

Hi Brian

Your posts very much remind me of "Alister Cook" in "Letter from America"

Longish introduction but the sharp message is always in there

 

You should not change at all, ever

 

All the best for 2012 to you and yours

 

Well said Syd -- I agree totally -- he does have the (slightly verbose) elegance of the late, great Alistair Cooke.

 

HNY too!

 

Colin.

[nightrider]

The late Alistair Cooke was born in Isaac St in the great city of Salford, unfortunately now in the news because of the murder of that young Indian lad, I went to the same school as Alistair, Salford Grammar as did the actors Albert finney and Robert Powell, they found fame, I didn't, where did I go wrong?

[Symbol Owner]

Who wants fame anyway Malcolm -- Andy Warhol said that we all get (or was it deserve?) 15 minutes of fame -- yours may come yet ;-)

 

best wishes,

 

Colin.

[CliveH]

 

May I suggest that the points have become too polarised?

 

It is true that the Police were overwhelmed and did nothing and part of that doing nothing was due, it seems, to a fear of aggravating the “problem”.

 

But unfortunately the problem got out of hand anyway. So that worked didn’t it!!!!

 

To say that our police can be compared to the likes of Syrian soldiers firing on civilians is frankly, silly. Yes a Policeman overreacted, and the newspaper seller died, but the difference is that the policeman was put on trial for that excessive force and he was found wanting in the professionalism department. I do not see many Syrian soldiers on trial - they may be in the future but not under the current regime.

 

Similarly, the whole of the Police effort was found wanting when they just kept falling back and allowing the rioters to take over control of the streets. The Police failed because they lost control of the streets. They let the people they serve down. It must not happen again.

 

A similar type of situation existed in the Fire Service for a while. Health and Safety decreed that it was safer to let buildings burn rather than try to save them or the contents. So let buildings burn they did. Until the insurance companies took the Fire Brigade to court and won on the basis that they were picking up the tab for the Fire Service not doing its job properly.

 

Similar is happening here with the aftermath of the riots. The appeasement strategy of the police was such a wonderful success (NOT!) that questions are and have been asked. Also Colin I do not think the military involvement in NI was the disaster you would like it to be. It achieved the main aim of reducing the sectarian killings. Imagine what it would be like if the IRA was given a free reign to set of the equivalent of the Omar bombing every week or so?

 

Yes mistakes were made - Bloody Sunday was predictable in that who the hell thought is sensible to put the parachute regiment in on the ground to "police" a parade???????. Stupid!

 

And those questions about how we are policed and should a minority view be given more weight than the majorities, should be asked.

 

[Symbol Owner]

Clive, please read my post accurately, (and the one from Malcolm that I am referring to) -- where did I compare our police to Syrian soldiers? Malc. was suggesting that we use soldiers instead of police -- which is why I used the Syrian (and could have said Egyptian) current actions as an (extreme) example.

I probably 'over-egged' the N.I. example a little - it was the 'Bloody Sunday' incident that I was thinking of, and, once the demonstrations/protests in 1968 were allowed to escalate, giving the IRA an excuse to exploit the situation, then there was almost no other option than the use of the armed forces in, what eventually became a civil war -- heaven help us that it should come to something like that in this country -- it is unlikely, I know, but the spectre is there, and could come to haunt a future government.

 

Colin.

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2011-12-31 5:33 PM..............................And those questions about how we are policed and should a minority view be given more weight than the majorities, should be asked.

Agreed, but I wonder whether they will be, or more accurately, I wonder whether the answers will actively be sought. The traditional view, and events elsewhere seem to support this, is that a society can only be policed effectively by consent. The consent requires trust on both sides. That, it seems to me, is why that question demands urgent answers. A lot of trust between police and public seems to have been lost over those nights, and it would be to our collective advantage for it to be restored.

 

How much the views of majorities should be allowed to dominate events is also very relevant. We like to think that the majority should have its way, but I'm not sure this is, always, democratic or healthy.

My first reservation is how the majority view is established. Almost any debate on major issues is strewn with people who hold completely conflicting views yet claim to represent "what the public wants". Since they can't all be right over their claims, they must be asking different questions, selecting different groups to question, not bothering to ask anyone, or lying. Unless one knows the basis for the claim (does one ever? :-)), it is difficult to give it any weight.

My second reservation is that majorities (caveat as above :-)) are not invariably "right", even though they are the majority. If the minority is misunderstood, or has been unjustly vilified, or if the majority is largely uninformed of the determining issues (possibly via a partisan press - it happens!), they are likely to have arrived at a bad conclusion. That may be easily rectified later, when better information is circulated to aid understanding, but that is not a particularly sensible or efficient way to proceed. However, far more damagingly, it may not be possible to reverse the impact of that bad conclusion, if it has been acted upon, for those already affected. Ultimately, we need to get the right answer the first time, and that may require the majority, who may from time to time merely be the baying mob, to be told that they will a) have to wait for action and b) not get what they want, but something different.

 

I don't think I am anti-democratic, but I do not trust simple majorities of the public as a reliable guide to what is the best course of action under all circumstances. That does not mean it should be disregarded out of hand, but neither should it be slavishly followed to the point of just giving the mob what it wants. That, IMO, is not at all how our system of democracy should work.

[malc d]

knight of the road - 2011-12-31 4:52 PM

 

The late Alistair Cooke was born in Isaac St in the great city of Salford, unfortunately now in the news because of the murder of that young Indian lad, I went to the same school as Alistair, Salford Grammar as did the actors Albert finney and Robert Powell, they found fame, I didn't, where did I go wrong?

 

 

Albert Finney and Robert Powell may have become famous, but only because they were good at pretending to be someone else.

I bet they couldn't make bird boxes.

 

;-)

[CliveH]

Symbol Owner - 2011-12-31 6:00 PM

 

Clive, please read my post accurately, (and the one from Malcolm that I am referring to) -- where did I compare our police to Syrian soldiers? Malc. was suggesting that we use soldiers instead of police -- which is why I used the Syrian (and could have said Egyptian) current actions as an (extreme) example.

I probably 'over-egged' the N.I. example a little - it was the 'Bloody Sunday' incident that I was thinking of, and, once the demonstrations/protests in 1968 were allowed to escalate, giving the IRA an excuse to exploit the situation, then there was almost no other option than the use of the armed forces in, what eventually became a civil war -- heaven help us that it should come to something like that in this country -- it is unlikely, I know, but the spectre is there, and could come to haunt a future government.

 

Colin.

 

Hi Colin

 

I think I am reading your post accurately - so something must be lost in the "interpretation"

 

 

"Sorry, Malcolm,

I don't agree, Soldiers are trained (and equipped) to kill -- that's why Egypt & Syria are using them to kill their own people -- our trained 'riot officers'/police can damage and cause death quite well enough, e.g. the newspaper-seller who had nothing to do with an anti-cuts demonstration, but died nevertheless, when a special task-force policeman applied excessive force. The use of the armed forces in Northern Ireland was a total disaster -- do you want that kind of thing on this side of the water?"

 

I still see the first sentence as reading that Egypt and Syria are using soldiers to kill their own people and that "our trained 'riot officers/police can damage and cause death quite well enough......" and give the example of the death of a newspaper seller by a policeman who pushed him over.

 

You go onto say that "The use of armed forces in NI was a total disaster -...." and ask "do you want that kind of thing on this side of the water?".

 

Sorry Colin but to me this post of yours tries to equate that tragic event where one policeman allowed his professionalism to slip with other events that are far broader. I do not see it as a valid comparison however tragic the events are.

 

You clearly link the event with soldiers trying to put down the Arab Spring and even go onto to ask if we want military activity as we had in NI.

 

If you want an answer to the later from me - then the answer is an emphatic yes! if the circumstances warrant. We have the Olympics this year and we will have allsorts from SAM's protecting the airspace to armed forces on standby in case anything kicks off.

 

So it is not really a question of 'do we/you/I want......' because in many ways it is already here. And I am happy with that - because if there is a threat, and let's face it - because we have stood up for human rights in many places, we are a "target" - I want active policing to deal with it - not the pussyfooting appeasement crap that allowed the riots to get out of hand last year. :-S

 

Anyway – happy New Year to you and yours.

 

[Symbol Owner]

Clive -- thanks for the New Year greetings, which are reciprocated!

 

It must be interpretation -- my (fairly simple) point was that, in my humble opinion, any 'upping of the ante' from the use of properly trained police (with the right equipment and in sufficient numbers) to the use of armed troops, whose training is not in the control of peaceful protests/demonstrations, whether violent or non-violent, or civil riot, but is to kill other armed combatants in war /battle or insurgencies is surely out of the question in a civilised society. Not only does the deployment of armed soldiers give out totally the wrong message, it also places (often very young)forces into situations where they are totally out of their depth. The 'militarisation' of our police force is a development that some of us have watched with trepidation and is to be deplored , in my view, but at least it seems to be happening 'by degrees' so the constables on the ground may possibly receive suitable preparation -- but never enough, as recent events seem to prove, unfortunately. The poor undertrained (probably frightened) policeman (a member of a special Task Group, as it happened) who, as you point out:"Acted unprofessionally", only goes to show where this kind of escalation can lead.

As far as the olympics are concerned -- a 'special case' if ever there was one -- i agree with you completly, the history, i.e. the Munich olympics, looms large for all concerned, but even there, as you point out, Clive, the troops will be 'on standby' -- in readiness -- but not on our streets -- where I hope that they never have to be.

 

Best wishes for a peaceful 2012,

 

Colin.