Advice on up-sizing ....

[Gwendolyn]

..but not by much!

 

We have had an Autosleepers Symbol [2005] for 18 months and have really relished [among other things] the ability to park up almost anywhere…. especially in towns, in a normal car parking space.

 

Now [on a 2 month trip in Spain] we feel that, perhaps, we would like a little more internal space.

 

So, can any of you recommend a van [preferably a panel van conversion] which will give that slight upgrade of comfort, without compromising too much the ability to ‘park anywhere’ [more or less].

 

I’d like a shortlist / shopping list of possible models - if such models exist - and would appreciate any advice anyone can give.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Gwen.

 

 

 

[colin]

The question I would ask is, are you looking for the same basic layout but extra space, or a layout that might give 'diferent options' for use?

[flicka]

Hi Gwendolyn

Looking on the net indicates your 2005 Autosleepers Symbol is 5.28m long on the 3300kg chassis.

So there are a lot of models available to you on the 6m LWB version of the Peugeot Boxer /Fiat Ducato /Citroen Relay. Multitude of layouts & will also give increased payload as they are mainly on the 3500kg chassis (v the 3300kg)

 

Including amongst others.

Adria Twin

Autosleeper Kiemberton & Warwick

Devon Astec

Globecar Globescout

IH Tro & Oregon

La strada Avanti

Murvi Morello & Morocco

Rapido van

Timberland Destiny

Vantage Sol

Trigano Tribute 650 & 669

Hymer C322

 

Others available on the Renault Master or Mecedes Sprinter / VW Crafter, at a similar length or some on the extended wheelbase at 6.36m long.

 

Good hunting

[Mel B]

I assume you want a similar layout to what you have already, namely the same as the one in this advert below:

 

http://www.becksmotorhomes.com/vehicle/2005-autosleeper-symbol/

 

At 5.29m in length and 2.18m in width, you'll have to accept that you have a SMALL van and a lot of vans are now much longer and a bit wider so as you've realised you'll have to go a bit bigger.

 

In order to give us more of a chance, can you give an idea of your budget and anything it must have (ie X no of travel seats, shower etc).

[Gwendolyn]

So impressed with replies so soon, and so detailed – thanks Flicka…. I’ll copy and save that list to Word.

 

New to motorhoming [and STILL have a caravan and tow car if that option beckons] so we don’t really know what is about.

 

To try to answer queries:

 

Love the layout of the Symbol. OH is wondering if we will need a fixed bed option as we get older….. [not that he reckons that will happen any time soon – cough! I reach a well-known Beatles song + 1 milestone tomorrow… he is younger !!!!]

 

Need only 2 seats. Shower and loo [which we have in Symbol], is a must....

 

Budget… well, saving like mad to top up any part ex price….. say up to £30,000???? OH may have something to say about that!! But really don’t want to go too large… just a bit of extra living space on long cold evenings – as it is in Spain right now….

 

1,2 and 3 month trips in other seasons, as we have done, have been no problem at all.

So maybe that the car / caravan option would be better for winter???? [Heresy here on this part of the Forum I know!]

 

But we need to explore all the options. The Adria Twin [mentioned by Flicka] has caught our attention. So having that suggestion is reassuring.

 

Thank you.

 

[Keith T]

we had an AS Symbol (old Fiat front version) and found we could happily park in most places. We then 'up-sized' to a Rapido 710F - sadly no longer made, but similar in width and just a little bit longer, and that too was fine.

We now have a Burtsner Marano 595, and find the width (2.3m) makes it difficult for UK parking, and also width the extreme width created by the mirrorsm very careful when driving on less than A-class roads, and even on some of those classed as A-class.PArking at 6.2m can also be difficult unless you find a car park where you can overhang a verge or similar easily.

Yes, it's really great for living space, and to a degree is pretty ok in France, but it does mean planning more carefully. Since we prefer to leave the motorhome (whichever one we have had) on Sites and use public transport or feet, that's Ok up to a point, but we do often feel restricted as to where we can safely go.

We may downsize in due course, but frankly the cost of so doing is putting us off,- we like the Autocruise Rhythm or similar, as similar layout to the Burstner,but still at 6m, is not easy for generalparking I don't think.

Do consider it carefully, and accept the limitiations if you do change..

[flicka]

Hi Gwendolyn

Please be aware that there are many models at the 6m length, my list was only intended as an indicator.

If you look in MMM Buyers Guide, i'm sure some more can be added.

 

Also, If you are happy with the Autosleeper Symbol layout, the current model (2007 onward) is a little longer than yours at 5.64m

 

Doing a search on this sites Motorhome reviews shows up 143 x 2 berth models, but does not give an option to choose length.

[colin]

O.K. now something to go on.

I have to admit that the layout you have is my least favorite, but it does have a good size lounge for the overal lenght, also like many British vans has good galley with relatively large oven, if this is important to you then another british van is way to go, if like us a couple of rings and a grill will do then continetal PVC's are worth looking at.

Your price range rules out the latest batch of layouts on PVC's as ones like ours are only realy availible new unles you are realy lucky.

So the choise is a bigger van with layout that you have, this will give a bit mre elbow room and storage but you will have the same usage as present.

Next would be rear lounge in 6m lenght, these should give similier lounge but a bit more enclosed as you don't get the large windscreen in lounge, the advantage is cab further from lounge/bed, so if one goes to bed the other can sit in cab.

Next is the Twin style, with fixed bed and dinette, this has the front lounge/dinette with large windscreen but maybe not as big a lounge as yours but the advantage is a fixed bed that at anytime can be used to relax in, or if one goes to sleep other has lounge to use, but be aware the transverse bed is not good if you suffer from claustrophobia, we found this out on a Wildax hire van gf got bad claustrophobia which is not apparent on our campscout.

[Robinhood]

I appreciate you originally stated "preferably a panel van conversion", but given your further post covers the possibility of a fixed bed, and the option of winter use, it is worthwhile pointing out a potential alternative.

 

It may be that one of the coachbuilt "van" conversions are worth considering. The generic term "van" has been used by a number of converters (notable examples being Hobby and Hymer, but others such as Dethleffs with the Globebus range have similar vehicles).

 

These are generally built to panel van width (i.e. narrower than you average coachbuilt), and there are a number of models that are on the 6m mark that current LWB panel vans also hit. Hence, parking presents the same issues, or lack thereof.

 

Within the package size, they have the advantage (generally) of better interior space (due to a squarer shape), much better insulation than a panel van for winter use, and better ability to support a decent fixed bed arrangement. Coupled with the possibility of better storage space (including decent external storage) they are IMO a better option than a panel van for longer term use. (And before the arguments start, I know others, for reasons that suit them, prefer the panel van - I'm simply trying to illustrate an alternative that suits my choices).

 

My own vehicle is a Hobby Van of panel van width, but longer than you would desire at 6.7m or so. Brian Kirby runs a Hobby Van at the 6m mark (5.99m, I think) for extended touring.

 

With a budget of £30,000 plus p-ex, you're getting into the area where such a vehicle new is a possibility - as an example of the concept, the following example link may help:

 

http://camperuk.arkict.co.uk/vehicles.asp?id=86&model=Van VS

 

.....though the particular van "genre" has various layouts from the different manufacturers.

 

Just another possibility to put in the melting pot.

 

;-)

 

Edited for typo and following

 

....having re-read, it may be that your total budget is around £30,000, in which case s/h models from around 2007/8 would be the target (and are available).

[PJay]

As you still have a caravan as well as Mh, I would use the caravan in the winter, with an awning for extra space if needed, and the Motor home for the summer, when size is not so important as you would use the outside more? Better to have transport you can park any where, I would have thought?

PJay

Just my view, if I had both that's what I would do.

[Meadows Engine]

I have a Murvi Morello PVC which is excellent but like most PVC suffered from a low pay load and had to be uprated taking it over 3500kg with all that entails.

 

There are some excellent threads covering pay loads and it will vary dependent upon your needs but

300-400kg is modest and remember that your passengers weight has to come off that first (75kg?)

 

If you are ex back packers youll be ok!!!

 

Its a great hobby so enjoy it

 

John

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2012-02-13 10:40 PM.......................... Brian Kirby runs a Hobby Van at the 6m mark (5.99m, I think) for extended touring..........................

Ever the pedant, 6070 long and 2070 wide is what is claimed, but I've never measured it :-). It also has extended mirrors, slightly unnecessarily, but useful as width "feelers".

 

I would add the Knaus Van TI that, I think uniquely, brings the kitchen block to the front. You lose the small side sofa, but gain the ability to use the table as work surface, and if you look at the inevitable "packs", you get a larger fridge plus three burners on the hob. It is on the Ducato, so a little wider at, I think 2190, also giving a slightly longer bed, and the wheelbase is longer, which should improve overall balance compared to out Transit base.

[Sundowner]

Have a look at the Adria Compact, which appears to be back in production after a couple of years break.

 

It is available in two lengths - 6mtrs. and 6.6mtrs. and is only acouple of inches wider than the standard panel van - still uses the standard short mirror arms, which I find are perfect for the width of the van.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-13 11:49 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-02-13 10:40 PM.......................... Brian Kirby runs a Hobby Van at the 6m mark (5.99m, I think) for extended touring..........................

Ever the pedant, 6070 long and 2070 wide is what is claimed, but I've never measured it :-). It also has extended mirrors, slightly unnecessarily, but useful as width "feelers".

 

I would add the Knaus Van TI that, I think uniquely, brings the kitchen block to the front. You lose the small side sofa, but gain the ability to use the table as work surface, and if you look at the inevitable "packs", you get a larger fridge plus three burners on the hob. It is on the Ducato, so a little wider at, I think 2190, also giving a slightly longer bed, and the wheelbase is longer, which should improve overall balance compared to out Transit base.

 

 

....well. I did say "I think" :-)

 

The Knaus had also crossed my mind, but given the current "phoenix" state of the company, I wasn't sure it had been resurrected (which, on research, it obviously has - but there is a question as to whether Lowdhams are importing RHD versions).

 

As to a second hand version of the same, I am always a bit wary of what the "support" situation would be from a "born again" manufacturer.

 

The other factor is the one that you've highlighted, that of overall width,with the current Transit providing a narrower starting point than the current Sevel-based units - perhaps a matter of some interest given Gwendolyn's original "spec".

[starvin marvin]

Gwendolyn - 2012-02-13 9:08 PM

 

..but not by much!

 

We have had an Autosleepers Symbol [2005] for 18 months and have really relished [among other things] the ability to park up almost anywhere…. especially in towns, in a normal car parking space.

 

Now [on a 2 month trip in Spain] we feel that, perhaps, we would like a little more internal space.

 

So, can any of you recommend a van [preferably a panel van conversion] which will give that slight upgrade of comfort, without compromising too much the ability to ‘park anywhere’ [more or less].

 

I’d like a shortlist / shopping list of possible models - if such models exist - and would appreciate any advice anyone can give.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Gwen.

 

 

 

I hope you find the van that suits your needs. We had a similar dilemma 2 years ago after we had downsized from a 6.00m coachbuilt to a 6.00m panel van. We were happy with the vehicle, nicknamed the Silver Bullet, except our lifestyle changed along with our camping style.

 

We were now free camping practically all the time, for long periods and found we were short of some living space, having to keep stepping over the dog! We couldn't carry as much gas or water as we wanted to. So we changed our PVC to a Hymer A class at surprise surprise 6.00m long. We now have all the space we need, can carry 2 large gas bottles, 120 litres of water and a plus of a spare toilet cassette.

 

So whilst we now have a bigger van in terms of volume, this is harder to park in terms of width but much easier in terms of turning circle and we can still park it on our drive, but it doesn't shift like the Silver Bullet did, that speed I still miss.

 

Your risk is possibly changing your van for a slightly larger PVC, with a much bigger turning circle, that doesn't give you much extra in terms of internal space. You may find you are back here in another 18 mths time wondering about changing your van again......it happens, be careful in your choice.

[Brian Kirby]

Forgot to say: Happy Birthday, Gwen! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

flicka - 2012-02-13 10:10 PM

 

Hi Gwendolyn

Please be aware that there are many models at the 6m length, my list was only intended as an indicator.

If you look in MMM Buyers Guide, i'm sure some more can be added.

 

Also, If you are happy with the Autosleeper Symbol layout, the current model (2007 onward) is a little longer than yours at 5.64m

 

Doing a search on this sites Motorhome reviews shows up 143 x 2 berth models, but does not give an option to choose length.

I think that extra length is wholly attributable to the X250's "Bruce Forsyth chin", so won't benefit interior space. Keith quotes his Burstner Marano 595 as 6.2 metres long. Our first van was a Burstner t595, later renamed the Marano 595, and ours was 5.95 metres long - but on the old cab.

[Brian Kirby]

starvin marvin - 2012-02-14 1:07 PM.......................So whilst we now have a bigger van in terms of volume, this is harder to park in terms of width but much easier in terms of turning circle and we can still park it on our drive, but it doesn't shift like the Silver Bullet did, that speed I still miss.

 

Your risk is possibly changing your van for a slightly larger PVC, with a much bigger turning circle, that doesn't give you much extra in terms of internal space. You may find you are back here in another 18 mths time wondering about changing your van again......it happens, be careful in your choice.

This well illustrates two things.

 

First, that width, rather than length, becomes relatively more of an encumbrance if you want a compact van.

 

Two, that all those low-profile coachbuilts called some variant on "Van" (or the Adria Compact) are mounted on medium wheelbase chassis, which retain the manoeuvrability of your MWB van but, by having a longer rear overhang, gain extra interior space. They also have substantially more storage space.

 

IMO, the Transit based variants, like ours, take this a bit too far and become prone to lose traction at times, but win out on width. The Adria and the Knaus both benefit from the slightly longer Ducato medium wheelbase chassis, so presumably keep the front better loaded, but are that bit "chubbier". Whatever happened to perfection, eh? Ah well! :-D

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-14 5:03 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2012-02-14 1:07 PM.......................So whilst we now have a bigger van in terms of volume, this is harder to park in terms of width but much easier in terms of turning circle and we can still park it on our drive, but it doesn't shift like the Silver Bullet did, that speed I still miss.

 

Your risk is possibly changing your van for a slightly larger PVC, with a much bigger turning circle, that doesn't give you much extra in terms of internal space. You may find you are back here in another 18 mths time wondering about changing your van again......it happens, be careful in your choice.

This well illustrates two things.

 

First, that width, rather than length, becomes relatively more of an encumbrance if you want a compact van.

 

Two, that all those low-profile coachbuilts called some variant on "Van" (or the Adria Compact) are mounted on medium wheelbase chassis, which retain the manoeuvrability of your MWB van but, by having a longer rear overhang, gain extra interior space. They also have substantially more storage space.

 

IMO, the Transit based variants, like ours, take this a bit too far and become prone to lose traction at times, but win out on width. The Adria and the Knaus both benefit from the slightly longer Ducato medium wheelbase chassis, so presumably keep the front better loaded, but are that bit "chubbier". Whatever happened to perfection, eh? Ah well! :-D

 

 

.....actually, my Hobby, though nominated a "van" is on the LWB Transit, which helps to balance the overhang better (though with commensurate increase in length over, and lower manoeuverability than, versions based on the MWB).

 

It is also almost exactly the same length as my previous A-class, but significantly narrower. I can vouch for the fact that the decrease in width makes a noticeable (positive) difference to its "road manners".

 

One factor that is worth considering is that my experience is that conversions on the Ford Transit often result in a higher payload than those on the Sevel vans, presumably due to a lighter base. This was certainly of some interest to me, given the potential load for longer-term touring.

 

We downsized for an obvious reason (last of the offspring no longer regularly travelling with us), and I looked long and hard at panel van conversions (the advantages, both real and perceived have been amply rehearsed in other threads). We came to the conclusion, however, that the best compromise for our requirements (ample storage - particularly for outdoor gear, good insulation, reasonable living space, permanent bed(s), improved performance/mpg and reduced footprint) all guided us more to the "van" concept rather than a panel van. The longitudinal beds combined with large wardrobes AND a large garage kept us off the MWB versions, and I much preferred the Hobby to the Hymer (YMMV).

 

I don't regret the decision at all. This van will cruise happily all day at 70mph, and if I drop the speed only slightly (around 60 is my preferred cruising speed), then it returns (measured) well in excess of 32mpg.

 

Being not a small person, the width is slightly restrictive between kitchen and washroom, (especially in comparison to the previous A-class) but no worse than most panel van conversions, and is the only real negative point when compared with the previous 'van.

 

Whilst in downsizing, I found I couldn't quite settle for a similar vehicle on a MWB base, my view is that, for anyone upsizing (whilst trying to keep the footprint small), a MWB "van" could be an attractive proposition.

 

I note, however, that Gwendolyn also uses a caravan. If there is a requirement to tow behind the motorhome, then the towing capacity should come under some scrutiny - my particular vehicle (no doubt by nature of the non-Ford chassis extension to which any tow-bar would be fitted) has a restricted towing capacity compared to the "virgin" base vehicle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

An Autosleepers Nuevo would be high on my list of vans that offer so much more internal space without a huge footprint?

[colin]

starvin marvin - 2012-02-14 1:07 PM

We couldn't carry as much gas or water as we wanted to. So we changed our PVC to a Hymer A class at surprise surprise 6.00m long. We now have all the space we need, can carry 2 large gas bottles, 120 litres of water and a plus of a spare toilet cassette.

 

A good one to look out for, I've noticed several PVC's that only have small gas bottles and tanks, our Campscout has 2x13kg of gas and 95l of water.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

The main proviso's for me would be the possibility for two single beds in a PVC now there are the longer van bases around, sadly this was not an option when we bought our current IH, I hate bed making with a passion, BUT, the biggest single thing that won me over to our current IH was the LWB van gave an almost car like driving experience, and zero conversion rattles ( another pet hate) I know the downside some say is a larger turning circle but this has never been an issue in practice.

 

You do have to look very carefully at the layout design, as we had a Trigano PVC that was infuriating to live with. So it would be another IH, the Tio RL, which would tick all my boxes, but I do wish they were not out of my price range !!

 

http://www.ihmotorhomes.com/tiorl.html

[Tony Jones]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-14 4:32 PM

 

Forgot to say: Happy Birthday, Gwen! :-D

 

How did HE know that? Same from me of course.

 

Anyway, back to OP - do have a look at what Horizons are doing these days. Not just because we've got one (which we've been very happy with) that's UNDER 5m, but also because they now do slightly larger models (even including an X250 base!) which are just as clever.

 

www.horizonsleisurevehicles.co.uk/

 

Tony x

[Gwendolyn]

Going to try and respond to all the helpful replies….. but I don’t know how to do multiple quotations… so will summarise, and maybe my replies and observations will add to the discussion for anyone else interested in the topic….here goes:

 

Mel B – yes layout is like that.

 

Keith T - Don’t want to go so large that ease of parking is a problem – that is vital for me. Would prefer to accept the current limitations than lose that facility.

 

Flicka – OH has been looking at the newer Symbol, so good to see that added to your list as well.

 

Colin – layout of settee suits me fine as I am short – and can sprawl out!!! Not so good for OH though!… but your front dinette fixed bed option suggestion sounds good.

 

Robin Hood, thank you for your suggestions. New ideas to us, ones we had not considered.

 

PJay – if ‘up-sizing’ means compromising on “parkability” we may well stick with our Symbol for 3 seasons use and use car + caravan for winter trips. [in fact, we originally booked ferry for caravan for this trip and changed out minds with about 2 weeks to go; cannot recall exactly WHY! Talk about a whim!!]

 

John - Oh – yes, we are ex-back packers, ex tenters, ex trailer tenters…. Very used to ‘travelling light’… and we have looked at Murvis previously.

 

Some more suggestion to add to list – thanks to Brian and Robin Hood.

 

Brian – thanks for the greetings…. Enjoying the day….

 

Thanks Sundowner – another Adria model to consider

 

Stravin Marvin – yes, we are carefully considering… it’s never easy is it?? All forms of “camping” [term used in broadest sense] have their advantages and drawbacks, as we have found over the years changing from trailer tents / tents / caravans… and back again … there is always a compromise to be made.

 

Robin Hood – we never intend to tow caravan with motorhome… different kind of holiday really [intended selling caravan and tow car once this was bought… they keep getting a stay of execution]. We chose the Symbol – after years of looking at vans – as we fancied quicker get aways than caravan allows. And also so we could sight see as we travel…

Above all, we thought it would be FUN…. Which it is!!!!

 

Tracker – after years spent looking [we used to live in Somerset where there are loads of dealers along the A38… lots of hours spent browsing….] our “short list” of two was Symbol and Nuevo. In fact, when we bought this, there was a lovely Nuevo also for sale. We spent some time dithering between the two… So good to get that endorsement>>>> Any Nuevo owners out there who can add to this? How IS the “parkability”?

 

 

The technical stuff [weights, payloads, turning circles…. Etc… mentioned in some posts] I leave to OH!! Showed him the replies and he was reading and muttering, “Ah, thought so!” “Globescout, now that’s interesting.” “Nuevo.. oh!” and such things…..

 

1Foot – OH likes the IH range…. Bed making is made less arduous after a few glasses of favourite tipple… then we laugh a lot.. but will we still be laughing in X years time when the old arthritis truly sets in….

 

Will copy and paste all this into Word so that when we get home at the end of March we can read, absorb, and seriously start considering.

 

Thanks One and All. Great advice and suggestions …. And isn’t this Forum lovely when there are really helpful replies and no spats!!!!

 

Very grateful…..

 

Cheers

Gwen

 

PS Thanks Tony; just read your reply. Another to add to the - now - long list.

Brian 'knew' because upthread I mentioned age in relation to getting older and needing more comfort and mentioned the "Beatles birthday" [as in their song] +1, today.....

[Robinhood]

.........and now, a celebratory evening out with your toy boy? ;-)