engine remaping

[kevina]

Brian, you make it sound like my engine is going to disintegrate the next time I take it out!

 

1. Most motorhomes already have reduced service intervals because time is up before miles.

2. My engine runs smoother, has fewer "stressful" gearchanges and I never have to give it any welly to get up a hill.

3. I've never seen the temperature gauge above normal and yes we do drive in the mountains.

 

[Colin Leake]

Yes what you say may well be true but it is a bit of an illusion. The plain fact is that as Brian says your engine and everything else will be working harder. I can only repeat that I personally know of two drivers with chipped engines in motorhomes who have managed in one case to blow the engine and in the other case the turbo.

 

When we raced we never used to say a racing engine had blown up. We used to refer to the engine as having gone "POP". Sounds less dramatic but it's just as expensive.

 

If you are running a chipped engine all I can do is to wish you luck.

[andy mccord]

Ok, Slightly different world, but the same result, I own a Jap spec Subaru Imprezza STi V, it is designed to run on japanese fuel which is significantly higher octane that uk Fuel, So to protect the engine from Det/Knock, I arranged for my car to have an Ecutek remap for Shell optimax (highest octane avail at the time).

 

My vehicle at the time was less than 2 years old and only had 21000 miles on the clock, each run in the car during remap I can feel more and more torque being developed, and it was smoother, and boost arrived earlier and earlier, more importantly no Det occured, which is the entire point of the remap.

 

5 months after the remap, plodding along in 5th gear, I decided to press the go faster pedal quite hard, RPM increases, speed increases much slower, result = increase in torque has killed my clutch, answer was £500 on heavy duty Exedy clutch to cope with the extra Torque.

 

You will kill your clutch much quicker with a remap, I have no intention of remapping my Adria, its not neccesary IMO and I totally agree with Brians post above....

 

 

Regards

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

kevina - 2012-02-23 8:39 PM

 

Brian, you make it sound like my engine is going to disintegrate the next time I take it out!

 

1. Most motorhomes already have reduced service intervals because time is up before miles.

2. My engine runs smoother, has fewer "stressful" gearchanges and I never have to give it any welly to get up a hill.

3. I've never seen the temperature gauge above normal and yes we do drive in the mountains.

No Kevin, I haven't, providing you read what I wrote with your thinking cap on. :-)

 

All I have done is stated the bleeding obvious - that if an engine is remapped for improved performance, and the extra performance is used, it is subjected to mechanical stresses that, as supplied, it was not built to withstand, and from which its components are liable (note, not guaranteed, merely liable) eventually to suffer. I also added that if it is remapped and the performance not used, the expenditure was of questionable value.

 

I'm not going to question your experience with your van, because I was generalising. However, the fact that, as you say, you "never have to give it any welly to get up a hill" well illustrates my point. You don't need to floor the pedal to get the power, because the remap is already delivering the power. Your remapped engine is now working as hard as it would if you had floored the pedal, but you are unaware of that, and think it is just coasting up. To what extent, if any, this increases the risk of breakdown depends on the nature of the remap, ambient temperature, how the van is loaded, the steepness and continuity of the hill, and how you are driving. In short, too many unquantifiable variables to draw any meaningful conclusion in respect of a specific vehicle.

 

Nevertheless - and present the argument as you will - in general, a remap alters the operating parameters with which the power train was tested by its manufacturer, and takes them to a far less (if at all), tested place. I say no more than that: which is, after all, rather obvious.

[kevina]

I appreciate it will be easier to stress an engine if using all the extra power of a remap, and presumably this is why some engines go "pop", but there is a simple way of looking at this.

 

My fuel consumption is marginally better than before the remap, and yes that is multiple brim to brim refills. I've regularly seen people write, with reference to remaps, that you don't get something for nothing; ie if you get extra power then you will not get improved fuel consumption. This is physics. Conversely if I am getting better fuel consumpton I must therefore be using less power and stressing the engine and drive train less.

 

Ok, so that begs the question why pay for power you aren't using? All I say is that it is nicer to drive and, as per my first post, it was relatively cheap. Every year millions of car buyers spend thousands of extra pounds buying more powerful cars than they need or will ever use just because they are nicer to drive, and I believe in many vehicles those are simply differing engine maps.

 

Remap or not? - Depends on how you drive it.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

kevina - 2012-02-24 11:28 AM.......................Conversely if I am getting better fuel consumpton I must therefore be using less power and stressing the engine and drive train less. ...................

Not as an argument for or against remapping, but I think this is the wrong conclusion. The engine is working with greater efficiency, so it will develop slightly more power for the same amount of fuel consumed, as before the remap. However, given identical driving conditions, only a given amount of power will be required to maintain a given speed, and the remapped engine will develop that power while using slightly less fuel. So you see improved MPG.

 

The drive train stresses involved, however, will only be those required to maintain that speed under those conditions, so will be no more, nor less, than for the unmodified engine.

 

The only thing that I would guess would be different, is that because the engine now consumes less fuel for the same power output, it will be achieving more efficient combustion, and consequently the actual combustion chamber temperature will be higher (generally a feature, AFAIK, of leaner burn). That would result in a proportionately increased load on the cooling system, and increased oil temperature. There would also be a reduction in upper cylinder lubrication (most of which I believe is provided by diesel fuel), and so increased cylinder wear.

 

However, for a typical 6,000 mile per year motorhome, I'd guess any such effects are of far less significance than those of only covering 6,000 miles per year! :-)

[Melvin]

Sorry Kevina,

 

I think you are kiding yourself, if you remap you motorhome you have to accept the consequences, you are putting all the component under an increased load, the majority of us are aware of this and except the risk. the reason you may be getting better fuel consumption may be down the engine running more efficient, however, that increased efficiency transmits itself as increased load, pure physics.

[Dave Newell]

andy mccord - 2012-02-24 8:35 AM

 

Ok, Slightly different world, but the same result, I own a Jap spec Subaru Imprezza STi V, it is designed to run on japanese fuel which is significantly higher octane that uk Fuel, So to protect the engine from Det/Knock, I arranged for my car to have an Ecutek remap for Shell optimax (highest octane avail at the time).

 

My vehicle at the time was less than 2 years old and only had 21000 miles on the clock, each run in the car during remap I can feel more and more torque being developed, and it was smoother, and boost arrived earlier and earlier, more importantly no Det occured, which is the entire point of the remap.

 

5 months after the remap, plodding along in 5th gear, I decided to press the go faster pedal quite hard, RPM increases, speed increases much slower, result = increase in torque has killed my clutch, answer was £500 on heavy duty Exedy clutch to cope with the extra Torque.

 

You will kill your clutch much quicker with a remap, I have no intention of remapping my Adria, its not neccesary IMO and I totally agree with Brians post above....

 

 

Regards

Andy

 

Hi Andy, I'm sorry to have to say you were conned. The modern Scooby (and pretty much every one else's)engines are so very well electronically controlled that no remap is necessary simply to avoid detonation or knock. The engine is fitted with knock sensors that as soon as detonation is detected the ECU will retard the ignition timing and alter the fuelling to stop it. The fuel grade is not particularly important because the ECU will adjust all other parameters to suit. The Scooby is one vehicle that has been tested and proved to give more power from premium fuels, mainly because of the knock sensor and associated management systems.

 

D.

[George Collings]

The main point of knock sensing on a spark ignition engine is to make most efficient use of the available fuel. The ignition is continually advanced until the earliest trace of detonation is detected and retarded until it stops.

 

Remapping with a diesel or petrol engine allows more fuel to be burnt increasing pressure and temperature during combustion so the engine develops more torque.

 

As long as the cooling system is in good order because of the need to deal with high ambient temperatures boiling is unlikely. However, unlike the cylinder head and walls the piston crown is not in contact with the water jacket relying in most cases on a spray of oil via the crankshaft feed. to dissasipate heat. As far as I am aware there is no economic way of monitoring piston crown temperature.

 

Prolonged periods of full throttle typical of climbing over mountiain ranges are when piston crown melt downis most likely to occur and the reason my engine remains in standard tune despite the fact that a bit more umph for overtaking and joining motorways would be nice.

 

 

 

 

 

[onecal]

That's true George ,

Up rating cooling system and Clutch should be really considered for serious engine re map upgrade's,

Regards,

Brendan

[kevina]

Are we reaching some sort of consensus that the OP can make sense of?

 

If you hope for increased fuel consumption and drive the vehicle as you did before, quite gently in my case, you may get increased fuel consumption but will get a smoother more flexible engine and only put a little or no more stress on the engine. There are many many motorhomers very happy with this situation.

 

However, If your vehicle is underpowered for its weight or you want to tow or simply drive faster (or if you are a really bad driver!) then you may have a problem at some stage.

 

I've read most of the forums for the few years I've owned a motorhome and I particularly focus on technical matters. The only post by an owner with a remapped engine I can remember, who has reported first hand they've experienced a failed clutch or other problem, was a few days ago on Facts. It concerned the 3.0 x250 which is renowned for problem clutches and it read "hi any body had clutch slipping after re map my van is a 3.0 litre x250 the remap has made it do more to the gallon because i drive inhigher gear all the time infact it does not like 1st 2nd 3rd and spins wheels". - You can draw your own conclusions!

 

Sandy, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter now.

 

Kev

 

[onecal]

Sorry Kev

I have had to replace quite a few clutches with engines that have been re mapped,,,yes of course if driven well and with care no real problems ,,,but I am afraid quite a few do give it a bit of stick,,,,,,with then poor fuel econ' and some over stressed engines ,,,resulting in overheating,and damaged engines,,and sometimes damaged clutches,,,,

Yes driven with care ,,,much smoother and better pick up,,,,but must be handled with care to get good results,,,,

Regards,

Brendan

[sandya]

Hi all have followed thread with great interest and having assesed all your valued contributions have decided against remapping as l fear damage to transmission etc thanks for all advice

Regards Sandy

[Melvin]

Hi Sandya,

 

Wise decision, I though about it for a long time over several , but eventualy took the risk, if you do not need it leave it well alone, would I do again, no really.

[DJP]

The new Euro 5 engines. The 3.0 ltr used to be 160 BHP now 180BHP

The new Euro 5 engines. The 2.3 ltr used to be 130 BHP now150BHP

 

Down to remapped engines?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

DJP - 2012-02-27 8:55 PM

 

The new Euro 5 engines. The 3.0 ltr used to be 160 BHP now 180BHP

The new Euro 5 engines. The 2.3 ltr used to be 130 BHP now150BHP

 

Down to remapped engines?

 

Or different engine design ?

[Steve928]

DJP - 2012-02-27 8:55 PM

 

The new Euro 5 engines. The 3.0 ltr used to be 160 BHP now 180BHP

The new Euro 5 engines. The 2.3 ltr used to be 130 BHP now150BHP

 

Down to remapped engines?

 

No, down to re-worked injection systems (pressure raised to 1800 bar, injection in 6 stages during the burn) according to the blurb.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

A significant difference between the Ducato Euro IV 130bhp 2.3litre and 160bhp 3.0litre motors and the Euro V 150bhp 2.3litre and 180bhp 3.0litre motors referred to by DJP is that both of the Euro V motors have variable-geometry turbochargers, whereas both of the Euro IV motors had 'fixed geometry' turbos. See

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Reviews/Motorhomes/Base-vehicle-review-Fiat-Ducato-Euro-V/_ch1_rw1070

[crinklystarfish]

As has been said, for increased fuel efficiency, driving style is the biggest winner. The web is full of reasonably reliable research that demonstrates this. It's also free and helps overall with mechanical longevity.

Exactly the opposite of re-mapping really, which may or may not give an increase in mpg anyway.

[andy mccord]

Hi Dave,

 

I dont believe I was conned in the slightest, I am aware of the sensors fitted to my Jap spec Scooby, But if I wanted to use my car to its full potential, It needed checking under full load using det cans/ Wide band Lam etc, Also have better boost control after switching to a 3 port solenoid, The remap was also done to take in to account straight thru stainless exhaust (de-cat) and the ditching of the Std airbox. As you are aware Dave the scoob engine is known to have chocolate pistons, Oh and shes far from modern these days being 13 years old , Do you still have your Cossie?

 

Andy

 

 

Dave Newell - 2012-02-24 7:00 PM

 

andy mccord - 2012-02-24 8:35 AM

 

Ok, Slightly different world, but the same result, I own a Jap spec Subaru Imprezza STi V, it is designed to run on japanese fuel which is significantly higher octane that uk Fuel, So to protect the engine from Det/Knock, I arranged for my car to have an Ecutek remap for Shell optimax (highest octane avail at the time).

 

My vehicle at the time was less than 2 years old and only had 21000 miles on the clock, each run in the car during remap I can feel more and more torque being developed, and it was smoother, and boost arrived earlier and earlier, more importantly no Det occured, which is the entire point of the remap.

 

5 months after the remap, plodding along in 5th gear, I decided to press the go faster pedal quite hard, RPM increases, speed increases much slower, result = increase in torque has killed my clutch, answer was £500 on heavy duty Exedy clutch to cope with the extra Torque.

 

You will kill your clutch much quicker with a remap, I have no intention of remapping my Adria, its not neccesary IMO and I totally agree with Brians post above....

 

 

Regards

Andy

 

Hi Andy, I'm sorry to have to say you were conned. The modern Scooby (and pretty much every one else's)engines are so very well electronically controlled that no remap is necessary simply to avoid detonation or knock. The engine is fitted with knock sensors that as soon as detonation is detected the ECU will retard the ignition timing and alter the fuelling to stop it. The fuel grade is not particularly important because the ECU will adjust all other parameters to suit. The Scooby is one vehicle that has been tested and proved to give more power from premium fuels, mainly because of the knock sensor and associated management systems.

 

D.

:D

[kevina]

When I bought my Saab new I was offered a "Hirsch" performance upgrade by the saab dealers. This is what they say on their website, quote:

 

Performance

Hirsch Performance offers performance upgrades for the Saab engines listed below. The upgrades offer significantly improved power and torque, while retaining the everyday practicality of the original engine. There is no compromise on driveability, fuel consumption and servicing intervals. The factory warranty and all Saab safety systems (ABS, ESP etc.) also remain unaffected. Performance upgrades can be programmed by all Saab dealers that have the IPRO programming tool - see dealer list.

[Dave Newell]

andy mccord - 2012-02-28 12:20 PM

 

Hi Dave,

 

I dont believe I was conned in the slightest, I am aware of the sensors fitted to my Jap spec Scooby, But if I wanted to use my car to its full potential, It needed checking under full load using det cans/ Wide band Lam etc, Also have better boost control after switching to a 3 port solenoid, The remap was also done to take in to account straight thru stainless exhaust (de-cat) and the ditching of the Std airbox. As you are aware Dave the scoob engine is known to have chocolate pistons, Oh and shes far from modern these days being 13 years old , Do you still have your Cossie?

 

Andy

 

 

Fair enough Andy only you did say in your opening paragraph that the remap was to prevent detonation. Yes still got the Cossie, just not had much time to play with it recently. Hope to get the chassis completed this year then powder coated. Then get the lump rumbling etc, etc, etc.

 

D.

 

Dave Newell - 2012-02-24 7:00 PM

 

andy mccord - 2012-02-24 8:35 AM

 

Ok, Slightly different world, but the same result, I own a Jap spec Subaru Imprezza STi V, it is designed to run on japanese fuel which is significantly higher octane that uk Fuel, So to protect the engine from Det/Knock, I arranged for my car to have an Ecutek remap for Shell optimax (highest octane avail at the time).

 

My vehicle at the time was less than 2 years old and only had 21000 miles on the clock, each run in the car during remap I can feel more and more torque being developed, and it was smoother, and boost arrived earlier and earlier, more importantly no Det occured, which is the entire point of the remap.

 

5 months after the remap, plodding along in 5th gear, I decided to press the go faster pedal quite hard, RPM increases, speed increases much slower, result = increase in torque has killed my clutch, answer was £500 on heavy duty Exedy clutch to cope with the extra Torque.

 

You will kill your clutch much quicker with a remap, I have no intention of remapping my Adria, its not neccesary IMO and I totally agree with Brians post above....

 

 

Regards

Andy

 

Hi Andy, I'm sorry to have to say you were conned. The modern Scooby (and pretty much every one else's)engines are so very well electronically controlled that no remap is necessary simply to avoid detonation or knock. The engine is fitted with knock sensors that as soon as detonation is detected the ECU will retard the ignition timing and alter the fuelling to stop it. The fuel grade is not particularly important because the ECU will adjust all other parameters to suit. The Scooby is one vehicle that has been tested and proved to give more power from premium fuels, mainly because of the knock sensor and associated management systems.

 

D.

:D