Tow Bars For Motorhomes

[william1]

Why are tow bars for motorhomes so expensive ? Quoted £400 plus for supply only for Autotrail Tracker - £150 for Ducato Van on Towsure . Surely not £250 difference ?? - Are we being exploited?

[DuxDeluxe]

Several reasons really, principally because they address a smaller market than the ubiquitous builders van and often because of that (the chassis might have extensions or there is a longer overhang) they are custom made. I'm a bit surprised that you can get a tow bar for £150 unless that excludes electrics but good luck if you can

[flicka]

Because they are now subject to Type Approval.

So that means specific to the individual model of Van (Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer, Citroen Relay, Mercedes Sprinter, etc..) or Motorhome (Autotrail Tracker, Autotrail Apatche, Autotrail Commanche, etcc)

 

Another piece of faultless EU legislation to be thankful for. >:-( >:-(

[Brian Kirby]

Are you sure about that, John? My understanding is that the basic panel vans have now been type approved for years, as have many, if not most, coachbuilt motorhomes made in continental Europe. Britain is only now introducing TA for coachbuilts, whereas all PVCs will have been TAd since this was introduced on the vans. So far as I am aware, once TAd as a van, conversion to a motorhome does not invalidate the TA already acquired.

 

So, if I'm right, the only affect of TA on the cost differential quoted would be the inverse of your implication. I believe William's Tracker is a March 2011 van, so will be a pre TA version. If correct, William will be comparing the cost of a cheap TA towbar for a van, with that of a sharply more expensive non-TA towbar for a coachbuilt. So if the cost differential is due to TA, advantage TA? :-)

[Rosbotham]

Because they saw you coming? I paid £300 fitted for my Autotrail....

 

Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound like an insult. It was meant to sound like advice to shop around!

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-26 11:24 AM

 

Are you sure about that, John? My understanding is that the basic panel vans have now been type approved for years, as have many, if not most, coachbuilt motorhomes made in continental Europe. Britain is only now introducing TA for coachbuilts, whereas all PVCs will have been TAd since this was introduced on the vans. So far as I am aware, once TAd as a van, conversion to a motorhome does not invalidate the TA already acquired.

 

So, if I'm right, the only affect of TA on the cost differential quoted would be the inverse of your implication. I believe William's Tracker is a March 2011 van, so will be a pre TA version. If correct, William will be comparing the cost of a cheap TA towbar for a van, with that of a sharply more expensive non-TA towbar for a coachbuilt. So if the cost differential is due to TA, advantage TA? :-)

 

It was my perception (which I'm happy to have challenged, as it is only a perception) that vehicles that have undergone TA legally require TA on any fitted towbar.

 

It is true that motorhomes in the UK are currently in the midst of a migration path to full requirement for TA (ukmotorhomes.net references a requirement for all NEW types to be TA'd from 29th April last year, and ALL sold to be TA'd from 29th April this year).

 

Given the deadline, as you would have expected there has been significant early adoption, Swift, Elddis and Autotrail being only some ofthe manufacturers.

 

Autotrail, being relevant in this case, have a published document:

 

http://warranty.auto-trail.co.uk/bulletins/1.pdf

 

.......outlining a target to achieve TA across the range by the end of 2010, a target which, if they achieved it, could well mean that the OP's Tracker is Type Approved, and needs a Type Approved towbar.

 

My experience in the past (albeit not with motorhomes) is that adding TA to a towbar adds a premium to the price.

 

It's interesting to see Rosbotham's post, as I suspect he bought a 'van that was manufactured before the end of 2010, and it may not have Type Approval. Reference to the pdf above - and the VIN plate, would reveal the TA/no TA status of their vehicles both to him and the OP.

 

 

[flicka]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-26 11:24 AM

 

Are you sure about that, John? My understanding is that the basic panel vans have now been type approved for years, as have many, if not most, coachbuilt motorhomes made in continental Europe. Britain is only now introducing TA for coachbuilts, whereas all PVCs will have been TAd since this was introduced on the vans. So far as I am aware, once TAd as a van, conversion to a motorhome does not invalidate the TA already acquired.

 

So, if I'm right, the only affect of TA on the cost differential quoted would be the inverse of your implication. I believe William's Tracker is a March 2011 van, so will be a pre TA version. If correct, William will be comparing the cost of a cheap TA towbar for a van, with that of a sharply more expensive non-TA towbar for a coachbuilt. So if the cost differential is due to TA, advantage TA? :-)

 

Well it's as I understood the OP's question, Brian, so I'll try to explain my thought process.

 

i.e. -"Why are tow bars for motorhomes so expensive ? Quoted £400 plus for supply only for Autotrail Tracker - £150 for Ducato Van on Towsure . Surely not £250 difference ?? - Are we being exploited?"

 

Irrespective of when TA became necessary for a PVC, at £150. with TA now being applicable for Coachbuilt's (in OP's case Autotrail Tracker) at £400.

TA applied across a high volume vehicle (the Ducato & it's variants) is insignificant, (Sales Units potentially substantial) but when applied to the Autotrail Tracker, (Sales Units almost certainly not exceeding double figures) it almost become a once only cost, because having applied TA for a 2011 model, it will have to be re-applied for the next or next but one model year. Design costs may be relatively low (i.e. weight calculations etc.. already calculated, but mounting points for chassis extensions to be done) but obtaining Type Approval costs will be significant.

Or in our case - Autocruise Sportstar, only sold in small numbers, even smaller number requiring a Towbar & then divide these between the Towbar manufacturers & the model discontinued after 3 years, then divide these between the Towbar manufacturers & you can soon arrive at a single unit to offset the TA costs against.

n.b. If it's any consolation to the OP, There was only ONE manufacturer who could demonstrate TA for our TowBar & it cost c £700 fitted.

 

Hope that clarifies somewhat.

[Rosbotham]

Yup, mine's pre-TA, 2009.

 

I suspect that Type Approval will be a license to print money for towbar manufacturers....I've commented on this on another forum before now. If the towbar attaches to the chassis itself, it's just about conceivable that there'd be sufficient volumes to warrant competition in the TA towbar market. If, though, the attachment is to the chassis extensions added by motorhome converters, inherently there's unlikely to be sufficient volumes to justify multiple towbar manufacturers getting TA on a given motorhome marque (or even model), so we'll end up with a monopoly of supply hence silly prices.

[Brian Kirby]

But, as your van is pre TA, you don't require a TA towbar on that. The towbar on the Ducato will be TA, as the Ducato is TA. So, as I suspected, you are comparing an expensive non-TA towbar for your van with a much cheaper TA towbar for the Ducato. Therefore, in this case, the difference in cost is not attributable to TA, but to other factors. What those, are I obviously don't know: might be because someone thinks they can swing high prices on the back of misleading TA waffle, might be because it is an extremely complex towbar, might be because they are an inefficient manufacturer, any or all, in any order you like. :-)

 

IMO, the benefits of TA on motorhomes far outweigh their disbenefits, but that is just my opinion. However, I wouldn't forgo TA just to get cheaper - though this seems questionable if your experience gives a reliable guide :-) - towbars.

 

The main reason why towbars on coachbuilt motorhomes will be likely to be significantly more costly than those for standard panel vans, is that (most) motorhomes already have chassis extensions at the rear, so the towbars have to be purpose designed for each model in every manufacturers' ranges. Add to this that with TA all those chassis extensions are also TA, and that AlKo chassis (also TA) have to have AlKo towbars because, AFAIK, no one else has the design data for their mounting points, and each towbar becomes a virtual one off. Add that very few vans overall have towbars fitted, and you have a quite understandable reason for a towbar for a motorhome to be expensive: each is more or less a one off design, for a very small volume of production. The additional requirements for TA will probably add to this, but the design will then have been scrutinised and proved, so the towbar is additionally likely to be a reliable and sound product. However, I personally doubt the costs directly attributable to acquiring TA is the major cause of increased cost, and would expect the one off nature of the towbar and its low volume production to be rather more significant.

[flicka]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-27 3:53 PM

 

But, as your van is pre TA, you don't require a TA towbar on that. The towbar on the Ducato will be TA, as the Ducato is TA. So, as I suspected, you are comparing an expensive non-TA towbar for your van with a much cheaper TA towbar for the Ducato. Therefore, in this case, the difference in cost is not attributable to TA, but to other factors. What those, are I obviously don't know: might be because someone thinks they can swing high prices on the back of misleading TA waffle, might be because it is an extremely complex towbar, might be because they are an inefficient manufacturer, any or all, in any order you like. :-)

 

IMO, the benefits of TA on motorhomes far outweigh their disbenefits, but that is just my opinion. However, I wouldn't forgo TA just to get cheaper - though this seems questionable if your experience gives a reliable guide :-) - towbars.

 

The main reason why towbars on coachbuilt motorhomes will be likely to be significantly more costly than those for standard panel vans, is that (most) motorhomes already have chassis extensions at the rear, so the towbars have to be purpose designed for each model in every manufacturers' ranges. Add to this that with TA all those chassis extensions are also TA, and that AlKo chassis (also TA) have to have AlKo towbars because, AFAIK, no one else has the design data for their mounting points, and each towbar becomes a virtual one off. Add that very few vans overall have towbars fitted, and you have a quite understandable reason for a towbar for a motorhome to be expensive: each is more or less a one off design, for a very small volume of production. The additional requirements for TA will probably add to this, but the design will then have been scrutinised and proved, so the towbar is additionally likely to be a reliable and sound product. However, I personally doubt the costs directly attributable to acquiring TA is the major cause of increased cost, and would expect the one off nature of the towbar and its low volume production to be rather more significant.

 

Hi Brian, sorry I have to disagree

 

I wish it were so simple.

 

Our Sportstar has Al-Ko chassis extensions, but despite numerous e-mails & telephone calls last September & submission of detailed dimensions I am still awaiting a reply from Al-Ko.

So not much help from them.

 

Manufacturing cost are not a major contributor to overall cost differentials, existing towbar jigs can be used (the cross members & towing head remain constant) & then it's a question of drilling the mounting bolt holes to individual dimensions.

Whereas Type Approval is Design & Loading calculations / validation by a Chartered Engineer, at very high costs, especially when it's for an one-off or very low volume application.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention in the previous post.

Fitting our Towbar did include a the CAN bus integrated connection, instead of a simple seperate circuit set-up & the Towbar was from one of the countries biggest & well known towbar producers.

[graham]

I stand to be corrected on this but I believe there is an anomaly in that you can fit a TA tow hook assembly to a TA vehicle using an interface system. Hence Fred Bloggs Engineering can design a mounting frame for a TA motorhome and fit to it TA towing assembly and satisfy the TA system. Having said that Swift and Eldiss both offer TA approved tow hooks and bars for their TA approved vehicles and I guess all the others do or will as well. When we bought our current Autocruise we got this included in the price as it is much simpler and saves any possible aggro at a later date.

[Brian Kirby]

flicka - 2012-02-27 9:35 PM...............................Hi Brian, sorry I have to disagree

 

I wish it were so simple.

 

Our Sportstar has Al-Ko chassis extensions, but despite numerous e-mails & telephone calls last September & submission of detailed dimensions I am still awaiting a reply from Al-Ko.

So not much help from them.

 

Manufacturing cost are not a major contributor to overall cost differentials, existing towbar jigs can be used (the cross members & towing head remain constant) & then it's a question of drilling the mounting bolt holes to individual dimensions.

Whereas Type Approval is Design & Loading calculations / validation by a Chartered Engineer, at very high costs, especially when it's for an one-off or very low volume application.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention in the previous post.

Fitting our Towbar did include a the CAN bus integrated connection, instead of a simple separate circuit set-up & the Towbar was from one of the countries biggest & well known towbar producers.

But William's query relates to his non-TA Tracker for which his towbar quote was £400. For his TA Ducato, he was quited £150. What I am arguing is that the high cost of the Tracker bar is not, therefore, due to TA. I accept that you want to quarrel with TA, but in this case it is irrelevant - and so, too, strictly, is your experience with your Sportstar, because it has an AlKo chassis extension and is not a Tracker, so is different again! :-)

 

Apart from all that, I'd far sooner have, and pay for, the properly designed and engineered towbar, with fatigue taken into account for both bar and mounting points, than an off the shelf product merely cut and shut to fit an unknown chassis extension. It was floor pan failures in cars that resulted in TA for towbars being introduced, precisely because "blacksmithing", and drilling odd holes in places that were not designed to be stressed, had proved unreliable.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-28 5:49 PM

 

But William's query relates to his non-TA Tracker for which his towbar quote was £400.

 

....I can't see that he has posted that his tracker is not Type Approved. You seem to have assumed so since TA is not mandatory for all motorhomes at the moment.

 

However, as I've pointed out above, given early adoption, there is a distinct possibility (from your info that it is a March 2011) 'van that his Tracker is TA'd (and only the OP can confirm). :-S

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2012-02-28 6:11 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-28 5:49 PM

 

But William's query relates to his non-TA Tracker for which his towbar quote was £400.

 

....I can't see that he has posted that his tracker is not Type Approved. You seem to have assumed so since TA is not mandatory for all motorhomes at the moment.

 

However, as I've pointed out above, given early adoption, there is a distinct possibility (from your info that it is a March 2011) 'van that his Tracker is TA'd (and only the OP can confirm). :-S

Yep, you are correct on both counts, thank you. It was Rosbotham,and not William, who posted that his was an '09 and so not TA. So, with my apologies to all, William's van could, indeed, be TA, so part of the extra cost could be attributable (among other things) to that. Perhaps William will confirm in due course.

 

However, whichever way you slice that, I don't think we shall ever see motorhome towbars at prices comparable to panel van towbars, because the market for each model is so much smaller, and so presumably price competition that much weaker.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-28 7:29 PM

 

However, whichever way you slice that, I don't think we shall ever see motorhome towbars at prices comparable to panel van towbars, because the market for each model is so much smaller, and so presumably price competition that much weaker.

 

.....I don't disagree with this in the slightest, but I thought there were some arguments at cross-purposes going on in the thread, with some dismissal that I didn't think was merited.

 

I would summarise that (in general), towbars required to fit non-base-vehicle manufacturers mounting points (as is generally required for coachbuilts) are going to be more expensive than those available to "white van man". Much of this will be down to the bespoke design and short "production runs".

 

It is also my past experience that adding TA to a previous standard towbar (when the requirement came in) generally increased the price (not insignificantly). I agree with John (Flicka) that adding TA to a relatively bespoke, short run towbar for a coachbuilt is likely, due to the bureaucracy involved, also going to add substantially to the individual cost.

 

So, in answer to the various arguments going on in the thread, I would propose that in general:

 

i) a towbar for a coachbuilt vehicle is likely to cost quite a bit more than one for a PV© on a similar base

 

ii) a towbar for a TA'd coachbuilt (requiring a TA'd towbar) is likely to cost quite a bit more than for a similar vehicle that does not require TA.

[Rosbotham]

Brian,

 

I think if you read between the lines, I provided the info on the cost implications of Type Approval.

 

Quote that William got for his TA-approved Autotrail = £400 supply only. Cost for my non-TA-approved Autotrail = approx £300 fitted.

 

Factor in fitting, and it's 50%+ increase in cost we're talking about.

[flicka]

Yes sorry Brian, I think we did get a bit at cross purposes.

Fortunately Robin Hood to the rescue & peace restored.

 

His explanation being better than my attempt to get across what I meant.

[Brian Kirby]

Nothing to apologise for John, I understand what you are both saying, and I agree that obtaining TA will have some impact on cost. However, I don't think TA alone is responsible for the order of cost difference that William was reporting, and unfortunately in saying that resorted to more flippancy than was good for my point! :-)

 

However, it seems to me there is a further factor, and that is the source of these bars. I just wonder how many manufacturers actually market TA towbars for Auto-Trail vans. It would not surprise me greatly if the only source of supply were Auto-Trail themselves, or possibly a single supplier under licence, or similar.

 

In reality, Auto-Trail don't make that many vans of each type, and of those only a relatively small proportion will require towbars. So, a very small market indeed, it seems, so relatively expensive to tool up for, and this must also contribute considerably to cost. After all, it is a rather time honoured tradition that if there is only one source for something, the supplier can, more or less, name his price!

[Melvin]

Hi Brian,

 

I must admit I agree with the new legislation being imposed.

 

I constructed my own towbar for my Autotrail Cheynne 660 after seeing some pretty horific proffesional attempts. I avoided using the Autotrail chassis extentions I do not think they were up to the job of supporting a towbar/trailer and had serious doubt regarding any side load or twisting forces so I constructed a new frame in box section and conected right up to the Fiat chassis.

 

 

[flicka]

Brian

However, it seems to me there is a further factor, and that is the source of these bars. I just wonder how many manufacturers actually market TA towbars for Auto-Trail vans. It would not surprise me greatly if the only source of supply were Auto-Trail themselves, or possibly a single supplier under licence, or similar.

 

I might be being cynical here, but I suspect that no Motorhome manufacturer makes Towbars.

Many use the Al-Ko chassis extensions on Coachbuilts

What I suspect is:- for a Towbar to be Type Approval certified, a Towbar manufacturer may have to pay fees to Al-Ko for their technical design calculations of the chassis extensions.

Further costs will then be incurred for verification & certification of the Towbar's design & calculated stresses, by an independant Chargered Automotive Engineer.

 

For Motorhome manufacturers it will, IMO be a marketing benefit if they have a mutual agreement with a Type Approved Towbar manufacturer.

i.e. recent Elddis advertisments in MMM - "Approved Towbar fitting option" would indicate IMO, that Elddis do not manufacture, but can offer Approved Towbar's)

[colin]

I note that Towsure supply towbars to ec94/20, for an x250 pvc it's £185, for custom built to fit 1290 wide Al-Ko it's from £299 or £329 for all other Al-Ko.