Disability & Motorhomes VAT

[michele]

Has anyone ever been asked for a letter to prove that they were disabled before.

The Department of Disability Living, supply if you ask for it a letter which states that you are in receipt of DLA and it also states the lenght of time that you can expect to be awarded this .

 

Apparently some tax depatments are different ? how many ways do they want it . I mean to be fair they send out the Dept of Works and Pensions to your house to check and see if you are fraudlently claiming this money .

We have ordered the Autotrail Chieftian as you may be aware . Freddie is in a residential school because of the nature of her illness . I do not see her Dr and to be quite honest to turn up and ask for a letter to say she is disabled I think is an insult . The Dr does not have to do this for us and whats more why should he . Even if he wants to there will be a charge . Why should I be running around to appease the VAT office ?.

 

Isnt it enough that she is very poorly and yearly I have a letter from the DWP to prove this . Shouldnt that be suffice for the VAT man/Lady .

On the other hand I will be madder if I am running around to save the company I have bought it from the leg work . The VAT man/ lady should just be sent to us if they are not happy with what the company tell them. Its not the companies / Mh suppliers problem they should just not pay the VAT to the VAT man and if there are questions then send them to us .

 

I just dont get it Ihave enough to do . Has anyone else been aasked for an actual letter rather than proof from the DWP. Be interested to know if this is the case.

[Melvin]

Boy are you mad I have struggle to read your post.

 

There are alot (and I was nearly conned at the NEC) of dealers out there who break the law and tell you you only need a letter from your GP, rubbish. It will be you who is held liable not the dealer. The VAT office has tightened up and unfortunatently you are suffering the consiquencies.

 

I actually applied to the VAT office and supplied a full set of all my specalists medical reports as I do not use a wheel chair as per regulations, but use mobility scooters.

 

The VAT office after reading my medical reports decide to award in my favour, the bad news is when I brought my motorhome I was totally unaware about the disability VAT excemptions, so paid full price.

 

 

 

 

[michele]

Melvin, Thanks for your reply . Perhaps you struggle because I am Dyslexic and I find it very hard to spell it correctly let alone stop. If Its on my tounge then it comes out . I find if I try to retain it , it actually gets worse . So apologise for that .

 

I dont understand what you are saying . The dealer is insisting upon a letter .

I have proof what better than that a proper full disclosure from the DWP.

He seems to think he needs a letter for the VAT man from the Dr . The point I am trying to make is why should I run around and get a letter when I already get checked by the DWP yearly and have proof of that in a letter awarding full disability allowance ?.

 

[pheasantplucker]

Hi Michele

 

Our dealer had a pre-printed form which required the GP to confirm wheelchair use and nature of disability. We also had a form to fill in ourselves.

 

Another criterion was that the van was being modified to aid the disabled person. The dealer then applied the deduction of VAT from the sale.

 

Buying a wheelchair, scooter, electric bed all did similar to varying degrees. Online purchases require just the nature of the illness/disability and carry a warning of the consequences if fraud is detected.

[Melvin]

Hi Michele,

 

I think pleasantplucker hit the nail on the head, I am also dyslexic, but I was refering to the frustration coming across in your post. please except my apologise.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

I think Michele could do with a hand tracking down these forms? as the dealer seems to be an uncooperative arse. can you not call another dealer and ask them regards the situation. But PP seems to have a handle on it IF you can get the bloomin forms *-)

[Guest ChrisB]

michele - 2012-02-29 12:34 PM

 

Has anyone ever been asked for a letter to prove that they were disabled before.

The Department of Disability Living, supply if you ask for it a letter which states that you are in receipt of DLA and it also states the lenght of time that you can expect to be awarded this .

 

.......

Michelle

The test is not that you or the person for whom you are buying the motorhome is disabled, it must be substantially and permanently modified to suit the needs of the disable person. Then it should be zero rated for VAT (subject to you supplying the dealer with the appropriate HMRC form).

In the past there have been reports of dealers have been less than honest and there have been tales of the "modification" involving such items as grab handles.

This unfortunately brings the whole process into disrepute and headlines in the tabloids.

In my case we have required modifications to the standard layout, wheelchair ramps and/or lifts, tracking, belts and restraints to allow the the disabled person to trave in a specialised wheelchair etc. As has been said before in similar posts the costs of these modifications can often be more than that saved in the lower rate of VAT (0% - not officially "VAT exempt"). In addition because of the modifications the resale value can be less than the "standard" model.

I have just ordered by 4th modified motorhome (in 20 years - from camper to A class). If you would like to know more about my personal experiences then please send a PM.

 

 

[michele]

We are having it modified . The modifcation isnt the problem the problem seems to lie with getting a letter from the GP. As I said I don't know her GP its all taken care of through school . Why and how many times can someone be asked to justify a disability in so many ways . Isnt this why the DWp visit in the first place ? to see if we are fraudulent ?

As we are not they give us proof to show people. I have never been asked for a letter in all our dealings with anything we have ever bought .

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Just something to be aware of Michele...............when you sell the van you will have to repay the VAT on the value of what you sell the van for...............not a problem if your buying another van........... ;-)

[Melvin]

pelmetman - 2012-02-29 6:06 PM

 

Just something to be aware of Michele...............when you sell the van you will have to repay the VAT on the value of what you sell the van for...............not a problem if your buying another van........... ;-)

 

I did not know that

[flicka]

Hi Michele

A lot depends on the individual Dealer & their interpretation of the requirements for applying VAT Exemption.

For us, (as example)

Motorhome Dealer A)- asked for a letter from Doctor. (at the last minute, as they had been notified HMRC were due to visit)

Motorhome Dealer B)- supplied a Form for us to complete & sign.

Modification Supplier C)- DWP Entitlement statement satisfied their requirements.

Vehicle Mechanical Dealer D)- DWP Entitlement statement satisfied their requirements.

Modification Supplier E)- supplied a Form for us to complete & sign + DWP Entitlement statement.

Power Wheelchair Supplier F)- supplied a Form for us to complete & sign + DWP Entitlement statement.

 

So in brief, I don't know which method is right, there is no "standard" that I can determine. They all appear to apply their own interpretation or what their "local" VAT Office tell them.

 

Looks like you have come across a dealer in category A)

 

Whilst the onus is ultimately on the Purchaser regarding the VAT, the Dealer also has responsibilities to the VATman.

If he were to incorrectly deduct the VAT, although not ultimately responsible for the VAT, he would be financially penalised by HMRC, who will go through his records.

 

For Freddie, you should get a "Entitlement" statement from DWP regarding Disabled Living Allowance & Mobility Allowance & their levels. The problem with this is that it only states the person's name & NI Number (i.e. not their address.) So you would need a document showing their name & address also.

IIRC Freddie is adopted or fostered, so the address link is important for you.

 

Your local Wheelchair Services can also give you a letter stating that Freddie is a Wheelchair user, because of (insert disability/ illness).Freddie's Doctor should also be able to issue a letter (at no cost).

 

Alternatively, if the School has some responsibilities for Freddie, they may also be able to issue a letter.

 

DWP advised us to keep the original & provide copies to any Supplier when VAT Exemption is required.

 

We use the copies of the DWP Entitlement statement & Wheelchair Services letter & they has always been accepted, as the necessary proof of entitlement.

(original Doctor's letter was supplied to Dealer A) & we did not keep copy).

 

It's hassle that you don't need, but having once gone through the procedure, it's quite simple for any future requirements, having retained the originals documents to copy again & again. Also, if HMRC, contact you with any queries, you hold the necessary documents.

 

But, comply with your Dealers request, you want them on your side.

The advantage will be that their records SHOULD show the vehicle is VAT Exempt, when it comes up for Annual Habitation Service & not require re-submission of all the documents again.

 

 

[Guest ChrisB]

Melvin - 2012-02-29 6:12 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-02-29 6:06 PM

 

Just something to be aware of Michele...............when you sell the van you will have to repay the VAT on the value of what you sell the van for...............not a problem if your buying another van........... ;-)

 

I did not know that

 

Firstly Michelle the HMRC is independent of DLA/DWP etc. To claim zero rated VAT all you need do (or all I have ever done) is complete the relevant HMRC form and give it to the supplying dealer.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000184&propertyType=document#downloadopt

 

Secondly the information above given by Pelmetman is not correct. It may apply to "VAT free" commercial vehicles when re-sold, but you will have paid VAT on your disabled vehicle (allbeit at 0%) when purchased (this rate is could be increased, but has remained at 0% since its inception).

 

The only time I have been asked to make any payment was years ago in the old "Car Tax" days which was exempt for disabled vehicles, but had to be repaid on a 3-year sliding scale if the vehicle was sold within the 3 year period.

 

On re-reading your posts I can't understand why the doctor and other agencies should get involved. I have not encountered these problems in all the years I have been buying (and selling after 4-6 years) converted vehices. Only HMRC should have any interest in the purchase.

They may wish to inspect the vehicle and conversion (has happened to me on one occasion - but with the ramps/wheelchair clamps there were no problems), but never been bothered by DWP (except for the Road Fund Licence exemption form renewed every year).

 

Keep on fighting for your rights - it's not easy in the current climate when many genuinely disabled people are being "demonised" as skivers because of the government press releases - usually by those who take up our parking spaces rather than walk a few more yards (no this could open up a can of worms).

 

[Guest pelmetman]

ChrisB - 2012-02-29 8:28 PM

Secondly the information above given by Pelmetman is not correct. It may apply to "VAT free" commercial vehicles when re-sold, but you will have paid VAT on your disabled vehicle (allbeit at 0%) when purchased (this rate is could be increased, but has remained at 0% since its inception).

 

The only time I have been asked to make any payment was years ago in the old "Car Tax" days which was exempt for disabled vehicles, but had to be repaid on a 3-year sliding scale if the vehicle was sold within the 3 year period.

 

 

You maybe right today :-S..............all I know is my old man got a bill from HMRC.... in Spain when he sold his Hymer, that he didn't expect a few years ago 8-)

[michele]

Guys thanks ..

At first I admittedly thought why should I run around to get a letter from a GP I don't even know to satisfie the dealers request . Its not easy I have enough to do so yes I was bloody angry really I suppose with the guy at the dealers (not him exactly ) but angry at the system.

The system stinks . I abide by the rules welcome the DWp to come see the children get my letter from them proving they are entitled to full mobility and care components and what good is it this letter from them if no one wants it . Seems a bit pointless to me wasting everyones time .

I guess in my eyes the VAt man can ask the dealer and he can point them in my direction if they aint happy even if even if the worst came to the worst what judge in the land isnt going to laugh it out of any court Its bloody obvious that she isnt going to get up and walk so whats the problem 8-) with the VAT man why isnt the DWP letter enough . I must admit I will try my best to get the letter but I now have to travel far and hope to get an appointment to see her Dr . What a waste of his time & mine. bloody system .

 

makes me wonder how all these bent people do it .

[Guest pelmetman]

When it comes to the HMRC you ARE GUILTY unless you can prove your self innocent.................remember these wise words from someone who has the scares *-)

[flicka]

Michele

Have a word with Elite & ask for their VAT account manager. Advise them which documents you already have. They may relent & deem those are suitable. If not, ask them to refer to their local VAT office to get the OK.

Or perhaps the School would get the Doctor's letter for you.

 

Spelling edit

[derek pringle]

Hi

just search 'motor vehicles for disabled people' the HMRC site will give you all you need to know, however it still does not seem very clear cut.

cheers

derek

[Melvin]

Here is one of reason why the VAT man has come down hard. Here is an typical example.

 

A couple of years ago we were at a Caravan Club site in cornwall (I will not say which one), a couple turned up and parked next to us in the pitches reserved for the disabled, to cut a story short, they had brought a new twin axle motorhome VAT free because of wifes disability excemption and asked if we had also brought our VAT free, the answer no we did not think we could, they told all you need is a letter from the doctors.

 

The wife kept eyeing up my mobility scooter telling us she suffered for severe arthritis and could only walk a few steps and we could see her struggle holding onto their motorhome as she walked around it.

 

Later in the week she was walking up to the toilet block with her husband totally unaided and what appears to be walking fine, my wife asked her are you feeling better, then she quicky grabbed her husbands arm for support.

 

Last year we reconised the same couple at the Malvern Show, she was now walking around no problem skipping around to the country music, later on that evening we even saw them line dancing. If individual are abusing the system it is people like you Michelle who will suffer.

 

 

[Guest ChrisB]

Melvin - 2012-03-01 10:02 AM

 

Here is one of reason why the VAT man has come down hard. Here is an typical example....

 

 

...Last year we reconised the same couple at the Malvern Show, she was now walking around no problem skipping around to the country music, later on that evening we even saw them line dancing. If individual are abusing the system it is people like you Michelle who will suffer.

 

 

Melvin, if what you say is correct (and I've no reason to think otherwise), then yes, such a situation would bring the whole process into disrepute.

My own belief is that a few years ago it was the dealers who were to blame. By offering "VAT free" purchases to one and all they would probably be able to sell at a lower discount (if any) than that offered to purchases subject to 17.5% (at the time) VAT. HMRC would lose, the dealer would gain.

 

The HMRC conditions are quite clear. I copy a couple of relevant paragraphs from their website:

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Which equipment and services can be bought without paying VAT?

- motor vehicles, boats and other equipment and appliances designed solely for use by chronically sick or disabled people

 

You also won't have to pay VAT on any charges made for the installation, repair and maintenance of these items, or on any spare parts and accessories needed for them.

 

Motor vehicles for disabled people (HMRC Reference:Notice 701/59)

1.3 Who is eligible for VAT relief?

Disabled wheelchair users - VAT relief on purchases of adapted vehicles

Disabled people - VAT relief on cost of adaptation to suit condition

2.1 What are the conditions for zero-rating?

You can zero rate the sale of an adapted motor vehicle when the following conditions are met:

1 The vehicle seating no more than 12 people must be supplied to a disabled person who normally

uses a wheelchair or stretcher to be mobile

2 The vehicle must be adapted to enable the disabled wheelchair (or stretcher) user to enter, drive or

otherwise travel in the vehicle

3 The adapted vehicle must be for the domestic or personal use of the disabled wheelchair or

stretcher user

4 You hold documents to show eligibility

 

2.2 What is a wheelchair user?

 

For the purposes of this relief a wheelchair user is anyone who has to use a wheelchair (electrically powered or otherwise) in order to be mobile.

A disabled person with a degenerative condition, such as multiple sclerosis, who does not need to use a wheelchair all the time, but only when the condition requires it, also qualifies as a wheelchair user.

A person who only occasionally uses a wheelchair such as:

when visiting a shopping centre or gardens; or

temporarily because he has a broken leg

is not considered to normally use a wheelchair and is not eligible for the relief.

 

2.3 What is a wheelchair?

A wheelchair is a chair for invalids on wheels which is manually or mechanically propelled.

A mobility scooter is not a wheelchair for VAT purposes.

 

2.6 Can a family member purchase the adapted vehicle?

Yes, provided that it is purchased for the personal use of the disabled wheelchair user.

 

3.1 What is an eligible adapted motor vehicle?

It is any motor vehicle (such as a car, light van, multi-passenger vehicle (MPV) or motor home) that is:

designed, or substantially and permanently adapted for the carriage of a disabled wheelchair user – see paragraphs 3.2 to 3.6; and has a carrying capacity of no more than 12 people – see paragraph 3.7.

 

3.2 What does ‘adapted for the carriage of a disabled wheelchair/stretcher user’ mean?

A motor vehicle is adapted for the carriage of a disabled wheelchair user if it is:

adapted to suit his specific needs; and the adaptation:

allows him to enter and travel in the vehicle whilst seated in the wheelchair or on the stretcher;

allows him to enter, travel in or leave the vehicle;

enables him to drive the vehicle; or

allows a wheelchair to be carried on or in the vehicle.

 

3.3 What is a ‘permanent’ adaptation?

An adaptation is permanent if it can be used for as long as the disabled wheelchair user requires it. Generally the adaptation would require welding or bolting to the vehicle.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I won't copy any more of the document which gives grater detail on e.g. what is considered a "permanent" adaptation for the disabled person.

 

You will see from the above that in order to qualify the disabled person must require the use of a wheelchair at all times or has a degenerative condition (it does later qualify to allow for the transfer from a wheelchair to a normal or adapted seat in the vehicle).

It would certainly not cover anyone seen to be "skipping around" to qualify for zero rating.

 

What is true is that the documentation is now much more precise than it was a few years back and (hopefully) dealers are much more aware of the conditions set out by HMRC.

 

When I purchased an adapted motorhome from one dealer some time ago I handed to him the appropriate signed HMRC form for his files. He also asked for me to sign a declaration to the effect that I would pay any VAT if at a later date HMRC deemed that it did not qualify for zero rating. This I willingly did and he was happy to complete the purchase.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[Mel B]

ChrisB - 2012-03-01 11:29 AM

 

Motor vehicles for disabled people (HMRC Reference:Notice 701/59)

 

2.3 The adapted vehicle must be for the domestic or personal use of the disabled wheelchair or

stretcher user

 

2.6 Can a family member purchase the adapted vehicle?

Yes, provided that it is purchased for the personal use of the disabled wheelchair user.

 

Chris

 

The 2 pieces of info above are interesting and bring about another question .... if the vehicle is purchased for the personal use of the disabled person how does that sit if the disabled person isn't in the motorhome when it is used? I'm thinking that if Michele, for example, goes off on a 'girls weekend away' in it, or Malc has a 'boys bash' what would the VAT implications be then? Would it be similar to 'personal use' of a rental property where you have to declare that when doing a tax return???? 8-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I am sorry for anyone who has to struggle with disabilty or ill health but there are abuses and the following made my blood boil.

 

I met a bloke in his brand new Rapido that he had bought VAT free nominating his mother-in-law as the disabled user, he was assured that the only modification needed to qualify was an external D handle which the supplying dealer fitted. On enquiring where she was on their extended European trip he said she found it too awkward to come with them,mmmmm. So there you go, a discount of £12000 for the inconvenience of having a D handle fitted. I have no difficulty with the taxpayer footing the bill for say a wheelchair clamp, or a D handle, but cannot see the justification for zero rating the entire vehicle, especially as they will also be in receipt of DLA mobility of approx £52 a week, sorry.

[Rayjsj]

Michele,

I would contact the 'DLA authorities' to get a copy of the 'Entitlement Summary' this is the Sheet (a Legal document evidently !) that states to 'Whoever' that the Benefit recipient qualifies for the 'Higher rate' of Disability 'Mobility' allowance. This is what is required (I believe) for the Van to qualify for VAT free status. (that was as far as we got in our search to do the same).

 

www.direct.gov.uk

 

My wife is also disabled, and we did consider going down the 'Vat free' Converted 'New' Motohome route, but instead went for a small converted car, to use all the time, both she and i can drive it. I sold my car and we bought a second hand motorhome (unconverted) which just i can drive. It works better for us.

I realise it is very frustrating 'jumping through the hoops' to get to your goal, but it will be worth it in the end, and i'm sure many happy days will be spent with you 'ALL' in the 'new' van.

 

Don't take any notice of 'that other bloke' ! he is obviously not disabled or has a loved one who is disabled, and doesn't understand. This present goverment are 'whipping up' discrimination against the Disabled, Elderly, unemployed as a 'smokescreen' to cover their swingeing cuts to benefits on which many folk depend. Go for it ! ;-) Ray

 

PS. And there is ALWAYS a story of some 'Fraudster' 'they know' who is conning the system.

99% of claims are genuine, the tests etc., to qualify are NOT as easy as the papers etc., make out.

 

PPS. Sorry after reading through, i see that Flicka has already answered the question quite extensively.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Not sure if I'm the "other bloke" but one persons benefit is another persons tax bill. You go on to state "cuts to benefits that people depend on" I'm sorry what ? to be able to run both a motorhome and have a car provided under DLA that includes all running costs, seams a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I say again costs to adapt a leisure vehicle in connection with a persons disability I have no problem with, but as it is very unlikely to be their sole use vehicle, and probably have a Motability supplied car as well, I don't see the justification in the zero rated VAT for what can only be described as a luxury item for most people, disabled or not, that's all.

[Rayjsj]

If the 'cap' fits ! (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

We don't 'depend' on benefits,although after 50 years of contributions we have 'paid in our share 'for what we do get , BUT many folk do depend on them. and they are being cut.

[Guest ChrisB]

1footinthegrave - 2012-03-02 10:41 AM

 

Not sure if I'm the "other bloke" but one persons benefit is another persons tax bill. You go on to state "cuts to benefits that people depend on" I'm sorry what ? to be able to run both a motorhome and have a car provided under DLA that includes all running costs, seams a bit of an exaggeration.

 

I say again costs to adapt a leisure vehicle in connection with a persons disability I have no problem with, but as it is very unlikely to be their sole use vehicle, and probably have a Motability supplied car as well, I don't see the justification in the zero rated VAT for what can only be described as a luxury item for most people, disabled or not, that's all.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way.

If you read my earlier post then you will see that the grab handle and fitting would qualify for zero rate VAT, not the whole vehicle. If the dealer zero rated the whole package then this is wrong - HMRC should be informed?

 

I don't have a Motability vehicle - but I do have a wheelchair adapted Kangoo which I purchased outright with no concessions. It is also taxed as a "private" and not "disabled" vehicle - so full payment there also.

The nature of the disabilities of the family member means that it is impossible to travel by public transport, let alone fly. In any case hotels and other holiday resorts are unlikely to have the facilities to meet our needs (excepting one or two specialist establishments).

Motorhoming is ideal as we can have all the facilities we need on board. Without it we would not be able to take holidays. The disabled member always travels with us - that was the reason for the purchase in the first place.

Please don't knock the genuine disabled motorhome users.

 

I once saw a notice in France which read (I think my French was up to translation):

"If you want my concessions please take my disability"

 

If you are lucky not to be disabled (and I am not myself) please don't fall into the "Daily Mail" trap and assume all claimants are rogues.

 

Chris