A-frames: why?

[pepe63xnotuse]

I was thinking the very same thing Ray... ;-)

 

..and as for A frame users "jumping through hoops"?...well,I would've thought that lugging a big caravan around(possibly with a large towcar?) and setting that up..or unfastening/lowering legs/unloading/reloading/raising legs and refastening,a demountable would've been just as much,if not more,of a faff.... :-S

[Guest pelmetman]

I wonder why the manufacturers haven't got together to sort this out :-S..................I thought this was one of the reasons we were paying vast sums to the EU for...............for solving problems like this *-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:19 PM

 

........I thought this was one of the reasons we were paying vast sums to the EU for...............for solving problems like this *-)

 

To be fair...and all things considered,I can't really see this being that high up their "To do" list.... ;-)

[malc d]

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:19 PM

 

...............for solving problems like this *-)

 

 

 

What problems ?

 

 

:-|

[Guest pelmetman]

malc d - 2012-04-08 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:19 PM

 

...............for solving problems like this *-)

 

 

 

What problems ?

 

 

:-|

 

I thought harmonisation of EU laws was one of the advantages of being a member of the EU?? *-)...........

 

 

[malc d]

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:48 PM

 

malc d - 2012-04-08 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:19 PM

 

...............for solving problems like this *-)

 

 

 

What problems ?

 

 

:-|

 

I thought harmonisation of EU laws was one of the advantages of being a member of the EU?? *-)...........

 

 

 

Legality that was the subject of the ' other ' thread - I took it this one was about why people use 'em.

 

 

I get very confused

 

;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

malc d - 2012-04-08 3:53 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:48 PM

 

malc d - 2012-04-08 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 3:19 PM

 

...............for solving problems like this *-)

 

 

 

What problems ?

 

 

:-|

 

I thought harmonisation of EU laws was one of the advantages of being a member of the EU?? *-)...........

 

 

 

Legality that was the subject of the ' other ' thread - I took it this one was about why people use 'em.

 

 

I get very confused

 

;-)

 

You know me Malc ;-)....................I struggle to stay on topic :D..............

 

I prefer a Marathon...................more nuts (lol) (lol)

[Rowan Lee]

Yes, we did set out to buy a motorhome and A-frame! We've never had a caravan, never wanted one. Sometimes we take the car, sometimes we don't need it. Sometimes we leave the car on site and go out in the van!! It suits us just fine.

[malc d]

pelmetman - 2012-04-08 4:06 PM

 

 

 

;-)

 

You know me Malc ;-)....................I struggle to stay on topic :D..............

 

I prefer a Marathon...................more nuts (lol) (lol)

 

 

 

Well I reckon that anyone who prefers to run 26 miles is definitely more nuts.

 

 

:-|

[Rayjsj]

Especially when the 'aforsaid' chocolate bar changed it's name to 'Sniggers' or some such, other 'Non-word' at the behest of the 'Globalisation of chocolate bars' ?? Years ago.

Anyway, at least actual 'users' of a-frames are coming foward to voice their choice and 'Why'.

Very refreshing. Ray (not using 'smilies' lest i am accused of being 'insincere'.)

More please.

 

[Wilf]

Just read this tread and it makes interesting reading. The original tread was posted by crinklystarfish and 18 people have replied.

3 admit to having and using an a-frame.

5 admit to not having one and give a sensible reply.

The other 9 admit to nothing giving 23 reply posts between them. These 9 are listed as ‘Experts’ so there comments on chocolate bars must be taken seriously!!

 

I agree with Rowan Lee “Sometimes we take the car, sometimes we don't need it.”

 

I agree with Mickydripin “I get a little fed up of thoes people decrying Aframes if they dont want to read the posts dont!. I thought this site was for all motorhomers weather they tow or do not tow a trailor, a bike, or a car they are still motorhomer`s and deserve to be able to post what they like without people complaining and coming out with all sorts of rubbish and insults.”

 

I agree with Rosbotham “One word : flexibility.”

 

Yes I have a small car which I tow behind my 7 meter van on an A-frame. Why:- Because if I didn’t I wouldn’t be able to visit the places I want to go in the UK.

 

Do I take it over the water? No not unless my intention was to say in one place for an extended period. If I holiday in Europe for 6 to 8 weeks I am touring and the last thing I want in tow is a car.

 

Have I seen others use A-frames on the continent? Yes on aires on the Mediterranean coast where they have been forced to park the car off the aire.

 

Do I care about the great legal debate? Am I concerned? Having sat for many hours in magistrates court; and not in the dock! I have yet to see or hear of a stated case on A-frame towing in the way we do it. A-frame dollies is a different matter.

 

A QUESTION TO ALL YOU A-FRAME USERS

What do the ferry operators and euro tunnel say about you towing a car behind your van? Do they charge you for a trailer or another motorised vehicle that you must uncouple before embarkation?

 

IN CONCLUSION

Why do you, yes the 9 so called experts reply to a genuine question asked by crinklystarfish by, As Mickydripin says “complaining and coming out with all sorts of rubbish and insults.” ?

 

Have you only become experts buy the number of times you have posted a reply consisting of rubbish or an insult. What kind of Experts does this make you??

 

I apologise in advance to all Genuine Experts and make no wish to offend. The Experts in Rubbish and Insults will no doubt again use their expertise.

 

[PJay]

It would appear that to become an "expert" you do have to post lots of times. Even if they are in some cases utter rubbish. It is a pity that "expert" should be "earned " this way, and not by actually being one, as a few really do give advice, and do't join in the slagging matches.

[tonyishuk]

My 10p worth !

 

My view on A frames is that the possibility of mechanical damage to a car's gearbox, running gear and braking system whilst towing is high. (Results have been written on this forum infequently )

 

The frictional drag whilst toading must be higher than any trailer, thus making increasing the relative MPG of the towing vehicle over trailing a car.

 

The legality is vague, and I would imagine any claim against the owner for an accident whilst the vehicle is being toaded is back into the grey area of the Insurance companies' small print, let alone the "road" legal interpretation.

 

Its difficult to persuade that insurance companies are wrong, when not meeting claims.

 

Having purchased an Toyota IQ, we have gone through the options of trailing, hireing (You can get a lot of hire for the price of trailer and e/over for length on a ferry fare), and decided that electric cycling is the way to go, with occasional hire of a car if needed.

 

I also ask myself, "how often are buyers told, This car has been toaded when selling it on ?" If there I saw evidence of the car being toad, I would end the converstion there !

 

 

In short the arguements for A frames do not cut it with me !

 

Rgds

 

:D That'll ruffle a few feathers !

[Rosbotham]

Wilf - 2012-04-10 2:43 PM

 

A QUESTION TO ALL YOU A-FRAME USERS

What do the ferry operators and euro tunnel say about you towing a car behind your van? Do they charge you for a trailer or another motorised vehicle that you must uncouple before embarkation?

 

Treated as trailer.

 

I've heard it said it can be cheaper to separate and drive individually through tunnel/onto ferry. That's not my experience. Guess it's all down to the load factors on the specific crossing of how full the standard/over-height compartments are predicted to be.

[Rosbotham]

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

 

My 10p worth !

 

...which you're totally entitled to, of course.

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

My view on A frames is that the possibility of mechanical damage to a car's gearbox, running gear and braking system whilst towing is high. (Results have been written on this forum infequently )

 

Can only draw on my own experience, which is 2x cars, approx 20k, approx 200 journeys, no damage sustained. I've yet to hear of a failure that hasn't either been down to user error (car in gear or brakes on), or problem with the fitting. Yet to hear...that's not an assertion that freak results have never occurred. One thing that must be stressed is a-frames are not "fit & forget"...it's important to maintain the frame, periodically check adjustment, and have a rigorous routine for fitting.

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

The frictional drag whilst toading must be higher than any trailer, thus making increasing the relative MPG of the towing vehicle over trailing a car.

 

No. You're forgetting the extra weight of the trailer. My own experience : trailer knocks approx 4-5mpg off consumption, a-frame approx 2-3mpg. However, there is another element that comes into play, around effect on one's right foot. I once had an (unrelated to a-framing) failure on my toad which necessitated it being repatriated from Switzerland on my breakdown cover. My fuel consumption on way there (towing car) was considerably better than that on the way back (not towing car as it had made its own way home), basically because on the way there pulling car I'd been a Christian driver, on way back travelling solo I put my foot down. This had far more effect than towing the car.

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

The legality is vague, and I would imagine any claim against the owner for an accident whilst the vehicle is being toaded is back into the grey area of the Insurance companies' small print, let alone the "road" legal interpretation.

 

Wrong thread

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

Its difficult to persuade that insurance companies are wrong, when not meeting claims.

 

Locksmith's insurance claim would tend to discount that...from my recollection the claim was settled promptly, and any wrangling has been around whether it goes down as an "at fault" claim or reclaimed from the a-frame fitters. My own car policy is specifically aimed at the a-frame market : given that state of affairs, it would be difficult for them to refuse a claim on the basis of the car being a-framed.

 

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

I also ask myself, "how often are buyers told, This car has been toaded when selling it on ?" If there I saw evidence of the car being toad, I would end the converstion there !

 

 

Possibly so. But I bought my first toad on the basis that it came ready framed-up. Saved me £800 getting one fitted. Got the seller £500 more than Smart dealer was about to hand him as a PX. Incidentally there were two cars at the dealer with a-frame mouting points, regretably without the associated a-frames...dealer didn't seem to be interested.

 

tonyishuk - 2012-04-10 4:32 PM

:D That'll ruffle a few feathers !

 

Not at all. You make your own choices. Empirical evidence could well counter your unsubstantiated beliefs though.

[malc d]

Wilf - 2012-04-10 2:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

IN CONCLUSION

Why do you, yes the 9 so called experts reply to a genuine question asked by crinklystarfish by, As Mickydripin says “complaining and coming out with all sorts of rubbish and insults.” ?

 

Have you only become experts buy the number of times you have posted a reply consisting of rubbish or an insult. What kind of Experts does this make you??

 

I apologise in advance to all Genuine Experts and make no wish to offend. The Experts in Rubbish and Insults will no doubt again use their expertise.

 

 

Hi Wilf

 

I think you are taking the label " expert " too seriously.

 

I don't know of anyone on the forum who has claimed to be an expert, although there are undoubtedly a few on here.

As you suggest, that title is 'awarded ' by the site based on the number of postings, and in terms of expertise it is meaningless.

(Although it may mean that because they have been here a long time they are experts at knowing who is worth taking any notice of on the forum ).

 

At the other end of the 'title' list are people masquerading as " new users " when in fact they may have been motorhomers / caravanners / campers for 30 or 40 years.

 

So you can't blame users for the titles that they have been given.

 

Cheers

 

;-)

[Merle]

For what it's worth we have an A frame and are delighted. MPG marginally less, but as already said that's probably in part due to being mindful of the car on the back. We have the towbars 2 towcars version, expensive but very neat conversion and literally 10mins to set up. We used to tug, Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 23ft van so a sensible outfit, but the number of times we got cut up or nearly blown off the road by a truck made me nervous let alone the other half. We have not to date (hope I'm not tempting fate) had any problems with the toad, either from being cut up or parking. As regards the overseas legallity issue, there's plenty to see in the UK, and when I'm ready to go continental, toad can stay at home. Merle.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Rosbotham.

 

Thanks for an excellent in depth and informative post on your experiances with or without an a frame it certainley blew most of if not all Tonyishuk`s theory`s out of the water.

When I post if possible i only post things that I can back up with experiance or proof because I know that it can come back and bite you on the bum as there are many more experianced people on this site than me.

 

Mike.

[RogerC]

We are a two car family and mine is a Smart Brabus so when buying our motorhome it was a sensible option to go for the 'A' frame modifications to allow us the flexibility to go away, park up, awning out etc and not have to up sticks to go sightseeing.

 

Regarding towing problems:

Towed vehicle damage?....NIL

Increased mpg?....NIL

Insurance problems?....NIL

 

We only tour in the UK..there's so much to see so until we have exhausted all the beautiful sights in our beautiful Isles Europe can wait......ergo no towing problems 'over there'.

 

In essence 'A framing' works for us.......

 

[Symbol Owner]

Mickydripin - 2012-04-07

 

I am a motorhomer I am having an Aframe fitted to my car because I go to France for four months at a time in the summer and stay at the same site.

I will use the car for general running about and day trips and the motorhome to live in or for when I want to go off site for a few days to tour around

One other thing I will not be going to Spain Edd or to any other country that it is ileagal to use it there loss not mine.

 

Mike.

 

BUT ...................Mike -- The use of an A-frame, as I understand it, is technically illegal anywhere in mainland Europe, it's just that the Spanish have started to enforce it -- who's to know when the French

(and Germans/Swiss/Italians,etc.) will follow suit?

 

Colin.

[Mickydripin]

BUT ...................Mike -- The use of an A-frame, as I understand it, is technically illegal anywhere in mainland Europe, it's just that the Spanish have started to enforce it -- who's to know when the French

(and Germans/Swiss/Italians,etc.) will follow suit?

 

Where does it say that it is ilegal throughout europe I am not defo sure but dont Caratow build Aframes and export them to France? to be fitted on to cars over there.

How do they get around that if A framing is ileagal throughout Europe.

I think that you are just doing a bit of Scaremongering without any proof Like a few more on this site.

Spain is the only country that are fineing people at the moment (and I have said in the past that I do not intend to go there with an A frame anyway "there loss").

I have not heard of any other and I think they are only doing it as they are in so much debt and will try to get money off anybody but themselves.

When they do ban it then I will not use it until then I will carry on.

 

Mike

 

[tonyishuk]

Love this forum :D

 

Still not totaly convinced but thanks for your thoughts.

 

Rgds

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Mickydripin - 2012-04-11 5:42 PM

 

BUT ...................Mike -- The use of an A-frame, as I understand it, is technically illegal anywhere in mainland Europe, it's just that the Spanish have started to enforce it -- who's to know when the French

(and Germans/Swiss/Italians,etc.) will follow suit?

 

Where does it say that it is ilegal throughout europe I am not defo sure but dont Caratow build Aframes and export them to France? to be fitted on to cars over there.

How do they get around that if A framing is ileagal throughout Europe.

I think that you are just doing a bit of Scaremongering without any proof Like a few more on this site.

Spain is the only country that are fineing people at the moment (and I have said in the past that I do not intend to go there with an A frame anyway "there loss").

I have not heard of any other and I think they are only doing it as they are in so much debt and will try to get money off anybody but themselves.

When they do ban it then I will not use it until then I will carry on.

 

Mike

 

There's a useful (Well, I think it's useful!) summary of the A-framing situatiion here:

 

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/towing-with-a-motorhome/

 

I cannot claim to be aware of the national motoring laws of each European country and how they might impact on the A-framing practice. It's something that I would have expected UK A-frame suppliers and the UK A-frame community to have researched years ago and to have such information immediately to hand.

 

The Caravan Club replied to an A-Frame legality question here:

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/8792145/ccmmarayc.pdf

 

saying:

 

"As far as Continental use is concerned, while Germany and the Netherlands tolerate A-frame towing, our understanding is that all other EU countries limit such towing to the police and recognised recovery services. While some owners get away with such towing, that doesn’t make it legal, and others have been prevented from continuing with the car ‘on tow’"

 

This statement (like Colin's) is based on "understanding", so it's not necessarily correct. On the other hand, it's not an unreasonable thing to believe and (in my view) it's preferable to assume that Romania, Lithuania, Sweden, Greece, etc. have regulations of the type the CC mentions than to merely assume that A-framing can be legally carried out in those countries. Ignorance of 'foreign' laws is rarely an effective defence, as UK A-framers touring in Spain have been discovering.

 

Towtal and Car-A-Tow both have offshoots marketing A-frames in France. French motorcaravanners have fallen in love with the concept, despite all the relevant French authorities stating categorically that the practice conflicts with basic French motoring regulations.

 

You ask how the A-frame suppliers "get around" this French regulatory conflict? Seemingly by using the same old weather-worn arguments regarding pan-European standardisation, the Vienna Convention and so on. I don't think anyone has been prosecuted in France for A-framing (yet) and (rather like the UK, though the French law seems clear-cut enough in my view), the French authorites, including the police, appear to have adopted a "Who gives a f***?" philosophy.

[Symbol Owner]

Now that's the view of a real 'Expert' -- well said Derek!

 

Sorry Mike, I was not meaning to 'scaremonger' - it just seemed to me that anyone going to mainland Europe is running the risk of arrest/fine etc. if they pig-headedly choose to flout the laws/regulations of those countries where it is quite clear that the towing of a car on an A-Frame is, as Derek says, "In conflict with those regulations"

It is your choice as to whether or not you decide to take the risk, but don't be deceived into thinking that, just because the French authorities (for example) are turning a 'blind eye' to it at the moment, that this will always be the case.

You have been warned!

 

Best of luck,

 

Colin.

[Rayjsj]

I thought this thread was to be about 'why' ? folk choose A-Frames to transport a car on their travels. Not just another re-iteration of the Law surrounding their use. I think we have read enough of those Already.

Ray (I have never called 'myself' an expert at anything in particular, title entirely down to MMM ).