A-frames: why?

[Brian Kirby]

crinklystarfish - 2012-04-07 10:16 AMA-frames are clearly popular and I can, in some circumstances, see some attraction.

However, given the grief and faff involved, it often seems like a cumbersome solution with all sorts of issues regarding legality, inability to reverse, two lots of running costs, extra maintenance, propensity to damage towed vehicle etc etc.

Leaving hypothetical points out of it, I'm genuinely trying to grasp the popularity. 

SO, does anyone set out with the notion that a 'van and A-frame will be the best solution to their leisure time needs and intentionally procure a 'van + A-frame from the outset?

Who out there is using one and can honestly report from actual experience that the A-frame solution has been consistently superior to a car + caravan / demountable / 'van + caravan / 'van + scooter / 'van + bikes / car on a trailer (or any other chosen) set-up?

In what circumstances are they, all things taken into consideration, the superior solution?

Probably too late now to return to the original question, but what the hell? :-)My two pennyworth. Many of us do things others consider illogical, mainly because we are following differing logic. Think of all those spats over fixed versus convertible beds, for example. For someone with limited mobility, not an invalid, but someone whose walking range is limited, the ability to take a car away with them must be highly attractive. The car will get them to places the motorhome would not so easily reach. The concept of the flat towed car, that does not involve loading it onto and unloading it from, a trailer, ditto. Additionally, there is no trailer to keep at home, or to manipulate onto a campsite pitch while away. One may argue for scooters, mopeds, e-bikes or w.h.y. but they are not for everyone, and are not pleasant when it is cold or wet (or both!), and a car is far less easy to fall off! In a way, I think it presents a rather cruel choice for this group, because it offers the seductive prospect of greater freedom than they could otherwise enjoy, but at a downstream cost that seems to get somewhat glossed over at the point of sale. Then add the sheer convenience of the motorhome compared to a caravan, and the concept gains yet more appeal to at least this group. I also think quite a few are put off caravans, because of their size and weight relative to the tow car. I have towed a couple of small caravans, but never liked trailing that dumb box behind. I assume others will share this sentiment. Then, to tow a comfortable size of caravan a relatively large, heavy, towcar is needed, which erodes some of the advantage and appeal of towing a small car with a motorhome.Given these appealing advantages, the concomitant disadvantages of somewhat dubious legality (despite manufacturer's claims to the contrary), the near impossibility of reversing it effectively (I mean reversing properly, not merely shunting it backwards for a few metres in a straight line), and the fact that the act of towing another vehicle breaches regulations in a number of countries, seem simply to get suspended from consideration. It is that suspension of consideration that one most frequently hears advanced in forum debates. It leads folk to the most awful sophistry in trying to dredge up legal sounding justifications for their own benefit, for a practise that I suspect many know at heart is no better than merely "not illegal".However, it is an individual choice and, providing those who follow the A-frame route are content to accept the consequences, whatever they may be, they gain an appealing solution to a problem they have largely made for themselves.

[peacock312]

ive been so busy motorhoming lately not had time to look at out&abuot live,first why tow on a frame? a because because i choose to!!next because i can take our car for extended stays on campsites,OR i can take our van only,if i wish to go touring here or abroad,or nip up to Aberdeen to visit my daughter,its still cheaper than flying/staying in hotel.! i can legallydrive almost as fast as in my car,then we park on my daughters drive.i have towed a frame car for many years inc.Holland,Germany,France,Spain,many times,stopped only once in Spain,inspected,then sent on our way.why tow?well my wife is not as mobile now as the years creep on,i do not wish to go back to a caravan,nothing against them,but there is a lot of work on arrival at site,we justback up put handbrake on,have a drink.also i have seen many caravans tipped up on motorways,saw one actually go over,frightening! i have never seen a aframe in any form of trouble at all so far.

finally,the comments about wear/tear of towed cars,last year we part exed a 4 year kia piccanto,recorded miles 3800,towed miles approx 15000,we advised main Renault garage of this,they took car into workshops,took off my a frame ,did a very thorough inspection of every component inc tyres bearings tracking etc.THEY COULD FIND NO MEASERABLE WEAR ANYWHERE,i was prepared to have a lower valuation if there was any wear,

I am prepared to verify all these FACTS if required,gagage name etc.lets cut all this crap,stick to FACTS and get on camping!!!!! ps i have piccanto car frame for sale if any body needs one,it wouldnt obviously fit my new Clio,its a Cris Cox make Dave Tucker

[peacock312]

Hi again,i forgot reply about comments of is towed car insured when towed? simple answer,ask your insurance company,mine confirmed yes,fully comp ,inc on or off aframe,they confirmed by email.i use lifesure limited broker and policy is with AGEAS next comment i saw was about problems on ferries,well i have never had a problem with DFDS or Brittany ferries,just book van + trailer or as i learnt on Brittany this year,book car &caravan it works out £50.00+cheaper total lengh must be correct and you may have to explain at checkin,i just said,lady at booking advised me this,it was accepted, dave

[crinklystarfish]

This thread has been dangling a while now and the first thing that strikes is the relatively few responses from actual A-framers reporting actual experience. Perhaps though, given the confrontational history of this subject, that’s no massive surprise.

I have read the contributions with interest though and, as at the outset, am persuaded that for some of the people some of the time, they are a good solution.

Specifically, for existing motorhome owners, I see merit in the choice:

For those who use their 'vans flexibly and have, for example, different types of holiday at different times of year

For those whose 'van is a large (maybe 8m+)

For with some mobility issue those who may need some kind of adapted controls etc.

I fully accept that others may simply make a concious critical choice to use a 'van and A-frame, even if it's perhaps not the most efficient or pragmatic solution when all things are taken into consideration. For those people, long may you happily A-frame - it's nobody else's business.

I do maintain though, having read tons of views over recent years -some quite ridiculous - that for many people A-framing there are, if the head were allowed to rule the heart, more pragmatic solutions.

So what was the point? Well hopefully a chance for readers to get past pointless confrontational tit-for-tat squabbles and engage in some genuine critical thinking.

If you are genuinely best served by one, or, having thought through the whole thing simply want one, good for you. 

For the rest...

[Guest peter]

Crinklystarfish, you are correct in your assumption that actual users of a frames have steered clear of commenting on this thread, for the reasons you state.

I found your reply very balanced and without prejudice, and thank you for it.

It's just a pity that the anti's (who probably don't have the bottle to do it) always pop up and take over threads regarding a frames, with no good reason. If they don't want one, so what, many do and don't need preaching to about how sinful or stupid it is to tow a car with a van.

[Wilf]

Peter

I would totally agree with your comment ………….”actual users of a frames have steered clear of commenting on this thread”…………of the 27 people that replied only 7 of us; myself included have admitted to using an A-frame. Do we / I care what the anti’s think or say? Well I would adopt Derek Uzzell words from his reply and like ………..”the French authorites, including the police, “……….” have adopted a "Who gives a f***?" philosophy.”……….

 

Let use all enjoy what we do in our own way without criticism from those that are self opinionated and feel the need to preach.

 

For what is worth we small band of 7 have posted 12 replies while the anti’s and those who admit nothing have posted 43 replies; I can only conclude that A-frame users don’t suffer from hot air!!

 

[Guest peter]

We don't really care what others think, we just get on and enjoy our pastime in our own way, and don't need the permission of the thought police to do it.

[dpsuk999]

Has anybody got/used these as a mode of transport for popping to shops etc?

 

http://www.xtreme-toys.co.uk/-Petrol_Scooters/cat496634_848006.aspx

[bertieburstner]

look great fun, but illegal

[dpsuk999]

How about on camp sites?

[aultymer]

dpsuk999 - 2012-04-18 11:36 AM

 

How about on camp sites?

Great for nipping through the site to the toilet at 3 in the morning.

 

It would also be great strapped to the back of the toad ' just in case' I needed to get to a cash machine to pay the fine.

[Caroline]

We after much thought and reading posts, decided to go the A-Frame route, we have a reasonable size van and if we stayed anywhere for a length of time we prefer to use a small car, or electric bikes to get around. I must say it was ok and convenient to use, but I never felt 100% happy towing with it, one occasion the steering lock came on, another something happened and the car was flat(battery) on arrival. With the situation in Spain and the legality of them we decided to trade in for a trailer before it became more wide spread.

 

We use a car in this country because of the location of sites and (lazy me) the hills. We also sometimes carry Archery equipment which is heavy and too cumbersome for the bikes.

 

We have not taken either abroad yet as we tend to travel around more or stay on sites convenient to towns. But when that eagerly awaited time comes when we can stay away for longer we will be taking the car with us.

 

I hope this helps you.

:->

[dpsuk999]

aultymer - 2012-04-18 11:57 AM

 

dpsuk999 - 2012-04-18 11:36 AM

 

How about on camp sites?

Great for nipping through the site to the toilet at 3 in the morning.

 

It would also be great strapped to the back of the toad ' just in case' I needed to get to a cash machine to pay the fine.

 

Haha, guessing would also come in handy for trips to the tap to fill my 25ltr water carrier ;-)

[Rosbotham]

dpsuk999 - 2012-04-18 11:36 AM

 

How about on camp sites?

 

Not caravan club ones. Standard text in their site info leaflets:

 

"Foot pedalled

cycles, scooters and skateboards can be used, but are not allowed on the

paved area around toilet blocks and communal areas and must not be

ridden on footpaths. Please note that motorised mobility scooters are

allowed on site, but children’s motorised scooters or skateboards are not."

[briff]

Hi all having not long been home from long tour of Spain towing a 107 on a A frame with no problems. We know someone on our last site that was stopped on the AP7 just outside Benicassim he was followedand then overtaken on motorway and stopped after toll.He was told this was not allowed in Spain, he tried to show them his letter in Spanish but they would not rear it. They telephoned HQ and a fine came through on a printer, it was 80 euros if paid at traffico or 40 euros on the spot with receipt, cash or card which I have a copy. He then asked if he should remove A frame but was told to carry on with your journey. J's wife was uneasy about driving the car to Santander so I decided it was time someone got off their bum and tried to do something. First stop was Guardia Civil in town but no trafico then to tourist information soke to young man with very good english and asked if he could phone tafico for me, I had to return next day he rear my paper work from caratow and said I had to go to Trafico in Castellon. Next day off we went to find trafico office shut at two for the rest of day. Back the next day with my paper work and spoke to a english speaking lady who read my papers and then went to speak to someone, after 10mins. she came back and aked if we were resident in Spain or on holiday and if we had Spanish number plates on our vehicle. No we were on holiday, she replied no problem, but we had to fill in a complant form which I took back for J. He filled in the form and took back to trafico with all vehicle documents ect. she photo copied and stamped form and gave us a copy and said hope you have no more trouble from out police. We left for home before J and he gave me a text to say he had been stopped at Burgos, they took photos and said on your way. A few days ago he sent me a text to say he had received a form from trafico to reclaim his 40 euro fine and he has sent me a copy of this. So pick the bones out of that briff.

[Guest peter]

That breaths new life into this thread.Right that's it, i'm definately taking my car next winter. :D

[thebishbus]

I find it rather interesting, that non of the anti A-frame brigade have commented so far, on briff,s experience

of his dealings with Spanish officialdom. 8-)

Brian B.

[crinklystarfish]

I'm not sure it's helpful to refer to an 'anti A-frame brigade', though it's clear that many motorhomers don't, at first, grasp the logic of them for some of the people, some of the time, and instead see that - in the majority of cases - it's a bit of a Heath Robinson solution.

What those people often can't get past is that some people simply prefer and choose the Heath Robinson solution.

Good on the chap for pursuing his cash back but I suspect he was simply fortunate to find some sympathetic help.

I've managed to wriggle out of a couple of parking fines here in the UK but that doesn't mean I wasn't parked illegaly.

[Derek Uzzell]

Just proves what UK A-frame manufacturers and UK A-framers have been saying for years - that the towing regulations of EU states (like Spain) that evidently prohibit 'national motorists' from A-framing in those countries do not apply to UK visitors.

[crinklystarfish]

Not sure it 'proves' it Derek, as much as shows one interpretation by a handful of sympathetic nationals that probably can't be relied upon to be repeated at this point.

[Derek Uzzell]

No, it definitely proves it.

 

It means there's no need to discuss potential A-framing-in-Spain problems ever again. The A-framing 'pros' can visit Spain confident of immunity from that country's national laws, while the 'antis' (whoever they might be) can retire to their dismal dens to lick their miserable argumentative wounds.

 

Thank heavens that's over and done with.

[crinklystarfish]

I humbly withdraw my position and agree that all is resolved.

[Mickydripin]

Hi too you all,

 

I arranged to have an Aframe fitted three weeks ago and it was done on Thursday last week.

It is a great bit of kit it is a Caratow and it was fitted by Leisurepower in warrington.

It is not like the first one that they made they have modified it so that when you take the a frame off there is no signe of it on the car they did a great job and I am very pleased with the work done to a very high specification.

I was a bit worried at first but they put my mind at rest and they kept me fully informed in everything that they did.

In the pack given on collection it gives you a copy of a court case in Alicante of an infringment of the general traffic regulations "in short" the judge stated: I Agree to dismiss the above-referenced action without statment of liability. the judge then stated that he should apply for a full refund of the fine and use this case number as evidence.

 

Mike.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

I would try it if circumstances called for it, and a little convertible Smart car looks like fun...... But while the sun continues to shine and I am fit and able enough to enjoy riding my e bike. this combined with use of public transport, happy to resist the temptation. Anyway the panel van we now have is easy to get around in....

 

in one of the links posted earlier did it not say that EU rules will change in 2014.....

 

 

Taken from Derek's link:

 

The continuing use of A-frame towing with inertia braking systems is under threat from prospective European legislation concerning trailers, which is due to come into force in 2014. Present UK Construction and Use Regulations incorporate a stipulation for trailer braking performance to conform to European Directive 71/320/EEC or UNECE Regulation No 13.09. The new legislation will require conformity with only the UNECE regulation. This latter regulation only permits overrun braking systems to be used on centre axle trailers such as caravans and traditional trailers and not cars towed as trailers.

 

VOSA, the Government’s Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, has yet to decide how to implement the regulation into UK national legislation and so it is uncertain whether the legislation will be retrospective for existing A-frame systems. Electrical braking systems should be able to meet with the UNECE Regulation No 13.09.

 

 

[Rosbotham]

On the 2014 ban on inertia systems issue:

 

Unless this particular Directive differs from any other, 2014 will be the date of the Directive and national administrations have 18 months to transpose this to national legislation. The UK is one of the quicker administrations, and my experience (albeit in telecoms regulation rather than vehicle) is it does take 18 months for the UK legislation to be enacted...sometimes to the day. So for 2014, read at least 2015, possibly 2016. Unless there's sloppy reporting around, and the Directive itself will actually be later this year/early next year (doubtful : convention is to report the date of the Directive, not transposition).

 

Once it does come into force, I can see no reason why an inertia system can't simply have its bowden cable disconnected and a Brakebuddy retrofitted.