sean.clarke Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 onecal - 2012-06-25 10:03 PM Hi,Have a look at the Honda S Wing 125,,,(not silver wing) fully auto, so easy to ride, cruse around 50MPH two up, all day,maybe a little heavy 150Kg,,,,have a lookRegards,Brendan Looks nice, but a little heave for a 125, and weight is that issue here. The Aprillia and Vespa (both 300cc) come in under 150Kg, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 On the subject of 'will a 125cc be powerful enough', a useful tip is to fill the tank with super unleaded instead of the usual premium unleaded. Although dearer in price, as the small scooter/bikes do 90ish to the gallon it doesn't matter that much. You will get an increase in power for the money. Perhaps Barry can try it out in the Austrian Tirol and report back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The Easylift Scooter rack is advertised as having a capacity of 200kg http://www.easylifter.co.uk/Non-Lift-Scooter-Rack.htm But that's a h**l of a lot of weight for a Tow Bar. It would be prudent to check with Tow Bar manufacturers' what their designed max weight on the towball would be. Towbars are designed for their pulling forces not supporting weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wints Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 We carry a Piaggio (vespa) Liberty 125. It weighs about 100kg, and will do 55-60 mph with us both on. We've been up Mont Ventoux and managed a steady 30 mph most of the way. I'm about 13 1/2 stone, the wife a little less. Friends of ours have a Honda 125 (not the innova), he's a much bigger lad than me, his wifes not much less, and they left us for dead going up that mountain. We got the piaggio 'cause it's standard issue for the french post office, and we're over there a lot. It's also got a flat floor, great for carrying boxes of beer ! regards Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-25 9:34 PM The article also sets out the law under which an e-bike rider can and cannot be compelled to give a specimen. The article is utter tripe..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-06-26 7:21 AM Robinhood - 2012-06-25 9:34 PM The article also sets out the law under which an e-bike rider can and cannot be compelled to give a specimen. The article is utter tripe..... ...........And that, m'Lord, concludes the case for the defence. :-| .....if you choose to believe so, Eddie, then on your head be it. :-S (written by a Barrister, it quotes an audit-trail of statute law which is easy to follow, and leads to exactly the conclusion that is put forward. On the other hand, you've argued your side with your usual display of wisdom and eloquence, so................ .......I think I'll go with my own research and the Barrister). ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Your loss..... a barrister and a journalist? Levason would be fascinated, I'm not. The article is all smoke and mirrors full of contradictions and BS *-) Drink driving in europe stricter then here so I dont even think about it. happy with a bottle of sparkling mineral water. Who gets drunk? I certainly don't. Who wobbles all over the place?...not me, I have been cycling for 30 years. Just drinks over lunch or dinner, not driving, not worried. and entirely legal, just like it is for a pedestrian or normal cyclist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 sean.clarke - 2012-06-25 10:39 PM onecal - 2012-06-25 10:03 PM Hi,Have a look at the Honda S Wing 125,,,(not silver wing) fully auto, so easy to ride, cruse around 50MPH two up, all day,maybe a little heavy 150Kg,,,,have a lookRegards,Brendan Looks nice, but a little heave for a 125, and weight is that issue here. The Aprillia and Vespa (both 300cc) come in under 150Kg, Very heavy, we are going for the Honda Vision when we sell our Innova, weighs about the same and a bargain price new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Yes the little Innova etc' are lovely but the build quality of the Honda S Wing and ride quality makes it feel like a large tourer,,,,now for a 125,,,ride one and see.Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Sean, you don't say what the van is, but I assume it is a new van? If so, it is likely to be Type Approved (TA), which means it can only be fitted with a type approved rack. It would therefore be wise to check with the dealer (who may know) or the manufacturer (who definitely will know) whether your van will be TA, and whether they know of TA racks of the capacity you seek. My suspicion is that, because the requirement is unusual, there will be none. If that proves the case, and there is no such rack, due to the TA requirements you cannot legally fit an alternative rack and will need to re-think your intentions. Large vans are heavy, and folk tend to put lots in them, which is why they buy large vans. Don't be surprised if you have less payload in practise than you are assuming. Every extra and option you specify on the van erodes the payload, because they add to its mass in running order. When aboard you, too, will erode the payload, because as you have said you are largish I assume you may exceed 75kg in weight, which is the usual load allowance per person upon which payload calculations are based. Be aware also that rear garages on vans have load limits in addition to those affecting the van itself and its individual axles. The problem is not so much the weight of the scooter or whatever, it is where it is located. In your case, you intend to locate it behind the van, so it will impose more than its self-weight onto the rear axle, removing the difference from the load on the front axle. In effect, your van will behave a bit like a see-saw: loads added between the axles are shared by the axles in proportion to their distance from each, so a load exactly mid way falls 50% front and 50% rear, and a load exactly over one axle falls 100% on that axle, and all variants between. However, when the load is behind the axle it acts through a lever on the rear axle to exert more force than its self-weight on this axle, while reducing the load on the front axle by the difference between its self-weight and the applied load. To this must be added the self-weight of the rack itself. To carry such a load this would need to be substantial, so heavy, and any chassis extensions needed to carry the rack will be likely to be deep in section, meaning a considerable reduction in ground clearance. Grounding at the rear on inclines and humps, and especially ferry ramps, is an ever present danger on vans with longish rear overhangs. A substantial rack reducing ground clearance can only contribute to this risk. As your van will be on a so called tag axle chassis, it is almost bound to have front wheel drive. Those front wheels will already have to drag the twin rear wheels off whatever you get them onto. I would think it unwise to hang yet more weight on the rear, so reducing the load on the front and, with that, also reducing traction on the driving wheels. It is a recipe for getting stuck on soft ground. These are the issues Rupert is referring to when he says do your homework, and they are what Judgemental is referring to when he says get a van with a rear garage. It seems your ideas have progressed since you ordered your van, and you may have selected a vehicle not entirely suited to what you now want to do. Better to make the enquiries now to see what will be possible, than to stumble into ownership of an unsatisfactory van. If the van is not newly ordered you may be able to negotiate a change if a suitable alternative is available, otherwise, you may just have to be flexible and cut your motorhoming coat around your motorhome cloth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Brian, all valid points... There is no type approved tow bar that is capable of carrying the weight of a scooter/motorcycle - however I have contacted armitage trailers and their units are fully removable should there be a problem come MOT time and are of a much more substantial construction using 3 times the amount of fastening points and running further along the chassis and will not affect ground clearance anymore than a normal towbar. The van is as perfect for us as and our usage as we can get, and we did a lot of research and viewing travelling 100's of miles. We have two usage patterns with the MH - "family time", which will be with our grand children and nieces and nephews and "our time" when we will have the scooter. We expect to have 60-75% family orientated and 25-40% our own time (which may or may not have the scooter). The rack is fitted to the tow bar in minutes. When we sat down and worked out a list of wants and priorities the scooter was at the bottom of the list - everything else has the box ticked - I guess the only thing that has really changed was we considered towing a car or a scooter and now we have ruled out towing the car, but that is a preference, large rear lounge, dinette, 6 seat belts etc. etc. were all must haves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Sean I am under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that a non-TA item cannot legally be fitted to a TA vehicle. If that is the case and you proceed your insurance conditions may be breached. It may be wise to check this before you get too far. I would also add to check the warranty of the van since, if you fit an non-TA bar and experience any kind of problem that could relate to its presence, I suspect you may find the warranty is void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Stupid bloody rules from the ponces in Brussels! Motor vehicles made after 1998 (S reg) that are type approved must have a type approved tow bar - so this means that every custom made tow bar fitted to any and all cars are "technically" invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 sean.clarke - 2012-06-26 10:08 PM Stupid bloody rules from the ponces in Brussels! Motor vehicles made after 1998 (S reg) that are type approved must have a type approved tow bar - so this means that every custom made tow bar fitted to any and all cars are "technically" invalid? Sean type approval on M/H did not apply from 1998 and they only apply now if the M/H has been type approved. This is only likely if it is a fairly new van. Out of interest our scooter plus rack weigh 150kg this added 200kg to the rear axle and reduced the load on the front axle by 50kg even then the front axle loading is still well within Fiats permitted load percentage for the front axle so no problem. The lack of the 50kg on the front axle has made no practical differance at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 rupert123 - 2012-06-26 10:52 PM Sean type approval on M/H did not apply from 1998 and they only apply now if the M/H has been type approved. This is only likely if it is a fairly new van. Out of interest our scooter plus rack weigh 150kg this added 200kg to the rear axle and reduced the load on the front axle by 50kg even then the front axle loading is still well within Fiats permitted load percentage for the front axle so no problem. The lack of the 50kg on the front axle has made no practical difference at all. Hi Rupert, yes I know, I was just highlighting the fact there are similar custom made tow bars for cars which obviously aren't TA. Has anyone got any experience of being challenged? Lets have a dose of reality - I'm not making a Heath Robinson contraption out of paper thin steel here, this is a professional, rugged well engineered solution, Also, if I forget the "tow bar" and just have the chassis extension and scooter mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Some good points from Brian and Rupert. I concur that out armitage rack, tow bar and scooter added about 150kg but like Rupert the actual weight with overhang is 200kg so as a minimum you will need at least 200kg of free payload on the rear axle to fit the rack with the lightest of bikes. If the overhang is long then this increases. Don't ask me how Armitage did it but their rack that's fitted to the chassis does not lower the ground clearance and I have never taken it off for Mot. No idea what TA is though but our van is 1996 so maybe it doesn't apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Barry, hope you are having a nice time! I believe TA became a legal requirement for new vans 29/04/2012, however the moment a manufacturer receives conformity (and you can check this as they should have given you a certificate with your V55) then you need to ensure that if you have a tow bar fitted it must be TA'd. I "think" Auto Trails received TA in 2010. I am note sure the "invalidate your insurance" is anything other than Tow Bar manufactures scare mongering - obviously if your scooter falls of the back or your caravan careers of the motorway then that would be a case to point, but for someone shunting you or you hitting a tree etc. I don't think they could legally say insurance was invalidated because the tow bar was not TA, especially if you had an engineers report stating it was fit for purpose or exceeded the off the shelf equivalents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Sean I am merely suggesting you check on these things. You are proposing to add a structure to the rear of a van that neither it's manufacturer nor your insurer will be familiar with. As your van will be a twin axle I assume the chassis, plus any rear extension, will be by AlKo. If that is the case, it will be AlKo who hold the TA certificate for the chassis. Their chassis are relatively light weight, and highly engineered, so what can be added to it, and where and how it can be attached, are likely to be strictly controlled. I do know that it is not permissible to drill their caravan chassis, for example. I'm not doubting the ability of anyone to knock up a sufficiently robust rack for the scooter. That is relatively straightforward. They may even calculate the stresses in selecting the members, though I'd expect them to be more likely to use "rule of thumb" and experience. If the latter, there is no chance of demonstrating TA compliance, as the stresses must be known. AlKo, being German, have been TAd for years, it is the UK manufacturers who have lagged in adopting the procedure, mainly because the UK government sought a stay on implementation. AlKo have always tended to be very stringent over third party interference with their products, and will disown any failure of the chassis that may follow. This you can easily verify by contacting them. I would still advise you contact the van manufacturer to see what they advise in respect of your proposals. I would still advise you contact your insurer to see how they would view a non TA rack attached to a TA vehicle. No, these are not empty scare stories, they are real potential problems. Where cars have been back ended and it has emerged that an unauthorised towbar has been attached, insurers have been known to reject repair claims because the damage to the vehicle exceeded what would have arisen with the proper product. None of these items are "blacksmithed" any longer, they are all engineered to have specific characteristics. These things are complex, it is the world we now live in. Ignore it at your own risk. You will do as you wish, but I am emphatically not trying to spoil your party. Why on earth would I bother? Quite the reverse, I am trying to steer you to consulting the right people before you act, so that you do not inadvertently leave yourself in a big, expensive, hole. Simply put, you are considering attaching a £700 rack to a £70,000 motorhome. If your motorhome is subsequently shunted and the AlKo chassis distorted, and a loss adjuster spots that the distortion relates to a impact on the rack, and that the rack is an unauthorised attachment, the insurer may refuse to pay out. If it were to happen it would make that rack very expensive indeed. You can check this possibility, or ignore it, that is up to you. This was your question, I am giving you the best answer I can. Sorry if you don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean.clarke Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hi Brian, I don't think you are trying to spoil my party at all - as I said, your points are all valid (and appreciated), however the legislation is infuriating >:-) I wonder if it is possible to source something from the continent....... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Edited to add The following crossed with you posting: "I wonder if it is possible to source something from the continent....... ?" ========= Whilst it may not be a palatable solution to you, I can suggest one potential route that I believe others have taken. The German market is much more aligned with your requirements. It is possible to buy (not cheap, as is the usual German experience) heavy-duty scooter racks which fit the AL-KO chassis, and which appear now to be type-approved (if my German reading skills have not diminished - and I would expect it to be so since Germany adopted EC WVTA for motorhomes some years ago, so the "aftermarket" would have to follow or die). I suspect that fitting a dedicated rack, rather than a towbar and rack mounted on that, will also save some weight. The market leaders (AFAIK) are SAWIKO, ( http://www.sawiko.de ) who I have had some dealings with, and they will (again AFAIK) fit at the factory. (I have seen positive comments on the same on UK motorhome forums). Their catalogue, and prices (unfitted) , are available on the website (unfortunately only in German). and their location, North of Osnabruck, is a day's drive from the channel. It would appear it would be possible to have a break in Germany and get a good quality, AL-Ko endorsed, type-approved scooter rack fitted. They were quite responsive to my emails for my past queries (and supplied some spares) - but they were in (schoolboy) German. Another possible route is via Goldschmitt ( http://www.goldschmitt.de ), who are also a large aftermarket supplier, but I believe the products they offer in this space are all Sawiko ones anyway (they used to have their catalogue in English, but this year's appears to be only in German). FWIW, Towtal in Stoke are supposed to be a Sawiko agent, but trawling the web leads one to believe that they might not be a lot of use. :-S ======== Edited again to add that it would appear (from the website) that they are now part of AL-KO 8-) (from Jan 2012). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Well done Robin! That looks potentially far more fruitful. If it were my van and scooter I think I'd have far greater confidence in the SAWICO (an AlKo company, to quote their website :-)) product than anything made up without the active participation of AlKo. The Modelle 2000 even provides a retractable loading ramp and tie downs. Looks good. Should also solve any potential warranty issues, though I still think AT (presumably it is them) should be consulted first, and there should be no insurance issues at all, other than simple notification that the rack has been fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 just use Google automatic translator...... honestly no need to struggle.. Or if you use Chrome as your browser it is automatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-06-27 4:29 PM just use Google automatic translator...... honestly no need to struggle.. Or if you use Chrome as your browser it is automatic ....fine for the webpages (I usually use Chrome 'cos it's the easier option), but not for the PDF catalogue download (which is where all the pricing info is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 If SAWICO are at Osnabruck, I'd think there is a fair chance there'll be someone there who speaks English. Was a huge BAOR base until the 1990s, so many local firms would have had business from UK forces. Taking new cars and motorhomes back from postings, even on leave, at favourable tax rates was a very popular passtime. Some even got sold as soon as they were back in UK, with others bought to replace them. Bet someone on here will have experience! :-) If Sean has the time, and just visits for a day or three, I suspect he could leave with a nice shiny new 150Kg capacity AlKo rack on the back of his van. All he'd really need to do is check he can pay by card. Not all German businesses will take card payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-06-27 4:53 PM JudgeMental - 2012-06-27 4:29 PM just use Google automatic translator...... honestly no need to struggle.. Or if you use Chrome as your browser it is automatic ....fine for the webpages (I usually use Chrome 'cos it's the easier option), but not for the PDF catalogue download (which is where all the pricing info is). cut and paste into google translator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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