A-Frames or Trailers?

[RogerC]

pepe63 - 2012-07-17 9:01 AM

RogerC - 2012-07-14 11:46 AM.... Quoting the NTTA as a reference holds no water as they are not a legal legislative body...

...So I assume you wouldn't be quoting them, if they had said that they WERE legal then...? ;-)

 

Correct..........their statement is simply their take on the question and is not based on any legal enforcement.  I'm sure if it was 'illegal' the powers that be and certain members of ACPO would be looking on it as another motorist based revenue stream.

 

There is more conjecture/debate/discussion on this subject than any other I have read about concerning practices associated with motorhomes.  Most all of it is from individuals and not legislative bodies, reading and commenting on and/or experiences of this practice.  Some comments are based on legally 'enforced' legislation such as the situation in Spain for example and are therefore not in question.  Until the situation is 'cut and dried' by legislative enforcement with at least one case proving illegality in those other countries it will IMO remain at best legal and at worst a 'grey area'.

 

It should be relatively simple to see when 'A framing' is made illegal with articles being published in all the relevant magazines, the removal of adverts from those magazines and the cessation of their manufacture along with a big bold topic heading 'A frames BANNED in UK' appearing here   ;-)

 

[Brian Kirby]

How to say this gently? :-) There is no ambiguity: in UK an A-frame is an acknowledged grey area legally. It is not covered by specific legislation or regulation. It is therefore deemed reasonable to treat the towed car as a trailer, PROVIDING it meets the regulations (that do exist) for trailers. Where is the ambiguity, to me that is perfectly clear? I don't think that requirement can be met, but others claim/think it can. That is their prerogative, and if they eventually turn out to have been wrong, it will simply be their loss.

 

Outside UK, so far as France and Spain (note, not just Spain) - and Bruce is reasonably sure Portugal - are concerned, it is not the A-frame that is banned, but the act of towing one vehicle with another. These countries do not accept the argument that an A-frame converts a car into a trailer, and the Vienna convention cannot be cited because the legality in UK cannot be, proved. Again, where is the ambiguity, what is unclear? So, these folk risk being told to uncouple the car, and possibly being fined. Again, that is their decision, so they must just put up with the consequences.

 

This is just the world as it is, warts and all, and we all have to get on and live within it. The reason for all the "conjecture/debate/discussion" you see, is that a vociferous group of people just seem unable or unwilling to understand this relatively simple situation, seemingly because they think UK law should apply to the whole of Europe - and find it unpalatable that it doesn't, and because they so much want to use their A-frames outside the UK that they confuse themselves with irrelevant and illogical arguments that prevent them seeing the simple truth. So, they just go on arguing black is white, because they don't like black. Futile, time wasting, and stupid.

 

As stated above, that truth appears to me clear enough, but this group don't, won't, or can't understand it. Whether this is due to a failure of education, reason, or genetics, I can't say, but for me that is a far bigger conundrum than the legality of A-frames, in UK or elsewhere. :-D

[Mickydripin]

Hi Brian,

In some of your posts you have been quoting that the a frame is Ileagal in France.

I mentioned in one of my posts that my a frame was inspected by the police in France and they were very impressed by it.

also Car-a-tow a frames are manufactured in France so how can they be banned in France would it not be ileagal to make them there in the first place.

You are right they are banned in Spain and possibly Portugal I dont know some other countries may also not like them but the law in the EU is very sparce on them so where do we go.

If they tell me that I can not use them in the EU then I wont until then I will use mine as it has been a great addition to my enjoyment and if at any time that I get fined a hundred euro`s or so at any time I am sorry if it goes against the grain of some posters but it would have been well worth it.

 

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Mike.

 

Have a look at my reply to Bruce's post on legality of A-frames in France. That gives the best answer I could find, short of trying to sift through the actual French legislation, which I am not at all keen to do! :-)

 

However, the A-Frame itself is not illegal, only using it. I am aware that various claims are being made, and that some are being sold in France. I think the sellers are taking something of a chance, but it will be the users who get caught.

 

Hopefully, you will continue to meet pleasant police officers though, as everywhere, some can be a complete pain, and some can't resist throwing their weight about! They do seem better now than they used to be, but I still tend to treat the French fuzz with a healthy slice of suspicion!

[rupert123]

Mickydripin - 2012-07-17 5:52 PM

 

Hi Brian,

In some of your posts you have been quoting that the a frame is Ileagal in France.

I mentioned in one of my posts that my a frame was inspected by the police in France and they were very impressed by it.

also Car-a-tow a frames are manufactured in France so how can they be banned in France would it not be ileagal to make them there in the first place.

You are right they are banned in Spain and possibly Portugal I dont know some other countries may also not like them but the law in the EU is very sparce on them so where do we go.

If they tell me that I can not use them in the EU then I wont until then I will use mine as it has been a great addition to my enjoyment and if at any time that I get fined a hundred euro`s or so at any time I am sorry if it goes against the grain of some posters but it would have been well worth it.

 

Mike.

 

Mike they are illegal in France, well not 'A' frames as such but towing a car with one. People from the UK and some in France have been getting away with it for years and may continue to do so. Some may feel like taking that chance and get away with it, depends how you feel about all this, me I am on holiday do not need potential problems before i start.

[BGD]

I've had a bit of wade through French law this afternoon (sad, I know!), and as I now understand it, this is the real legal situation in France: A-Frame towing is definitely illegal there too.

Whether or not that illegality is currently punished strictly, never, or patchily by French Gendarmes, the law appears perfectly clear that legally you can't do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

French Law Regarding A-Frame Towing.

 

Article R311-1 (as amended by Decree No. 2009-497 of 30 April 2009) of the Code de la Route defines the vehicle categories, and vehicle/trailer combinations, that may use public roads in France under French law.

Dependant upon their individual type/weight, Motorhomes are motor vehicles within either Category M or N.

 

Under Article R311-1 only a trailer (which are in Category O and which are defined by Article L110-1) may be towed by a motor vehicle.

 

Article L110-1:the following have the meanings ascribed to them in this article:

1 "Motor vehicle" means any land vehicle equipped with a propulsion engine, including trolley buses, designed to run on a road under its own power, with the exception of vehicles which run on rails;

2 "Trailer" means any vehicle without means of self-propulsion, designed and constructed to be drawn by another vehicle.

 

Except in cases of emergency towing following breakdown/accident, the combination of a motor-home (or any other car/van) towing any other land vehicle equipped with a propulsion engine (eg. a car) is specifically illegal on any public road in France.

Even in emergency circumstances, such towing must only be to the nearest safe place, must use only a specialist recovery vehicle and or by the use of a homologated, solid, tow-pole (ie not a tow rope); the towed vehicle must have a driver (unless physically impossible due to accident damage), both vehicles must show their hazard warning lights, and the speed must be kept “low” (what “low” means is not defined in the article of law).

 

The Federation Francaise de Camping et de Caravaning (FFCC) has confirmed that there has yet been no instance of any sort of solid tow-pole homologated for use in France; and has advised it's members that A-Frame towing is specifically illegal on French roads because of the above laws.

 

To be towed behind a motorhome in France, a car must be carried on a trailer.

 

 

[Rayjsj]

Hello All,

Just got back after 12 weeks away, ALL in the UK, mainly the Western Isles of Scotland, then a slow trip back (get back to the Subject !!) saw many,many cars towed on A-Frames, at least 30 on differant sites, we stayed on, only a handful on Trailers. I watched neighbours,(as you do) disconnecting/ unloading with both systems, my conclusion is that is is far more convienient, with less 'spare junk' laying around (ie Trailer/ ramps/securing straps etc.,) to use an 'A- Frame'. The resulting 'Towing Unit' appears far 'Safer' , although i am no 'expert', and the physical exertion of loading/connecting far less demanding, One guy spent at least an hour Loading and securing his 'Smart' car onto a trailer, and to be honest I still wouldn't want to be close behind him, as the car looked 'unstable' up on the trailer.

The A-framers in Contrast, took just a few minutes, their pitches contained no 'Junk', and in motion the unit looked safe and stable. IF the EU want to ban a perfectly safe and easy method of transporting a spare 'runabout' vehicle then let them. (oh, they already have, OK) just as long as they don't expect the UK to do the same.

Me ? I hired a car when i stayed in one place for over two weeks, but I won't be doing it again, now that I have seen how easy 'A-Framing' really is. Ray

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2012-07-18 10:42 AM.................... IF the EU want to ban a perfectly safe and easy method of transporting a spare 'runabout' vehicle then let them. (oh, they already have, OK) just as long as they don't expect the UK to do the same. .............. Ray

Ray, you are right at the end of yet another a long string on this subject, and seem to have mossed much of the point.

 

Just for clarity, therefore, it is not the EU that has banned anything. It is the individual national laws of at least France, Spain, and it seems, Portugal, that, with minor variations, all ban the towing of one road vehicle with another. Except in France (where there is a stated conditional exception), It matters not one jot how the vehicles are towed. It is the act of towing itself that is banned.

 

Trailers are fine, but they must be designed and constructed as trailers, i.e. not having any means of self-propulsion. That is the legal position in those countries.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Ray how you can categorically say its "safe" is beyond me.....when there have been examples of these becoming detached. Running into the back of campers. Problems on speed bumps. AND catching fire :-D

[Rayjsj]

Eddie,

and there have been cases of vehicles on trailers straying onto railway tracks and derailing trains (yes i'm being facitious !) a few cases, do not 'a Trend make'. I spoke to several 'A-framers' (as you do) to ask about their experiences, none had had any 'Scares' when towing, although one had had to unhook his car when his Sat-nav took him down a dead end road. One had actually swapped his Trailer (an Ifor Williams) for an A-frame because of the storage problem with the trailer. both at home and on site. He only tours the UK now though, he was well aware of the problems of A-framing in Spain, but now doesn't intend to go back.

Provided, the braking system works correctly when attached to the A-Frame, and ALL the normal preparations are carried out, then they are at least as safe as a Trailer and arguably safer.

That is good enough for me. But then, i think 'daytime running lights' are stupid as well.

And am very happy that the UK is not part of the 'Euro-Zone'. Ray

[onecal]

Hi.

In answer to the original question, not looking good for A-Frames , looks like Trailer is the way to go if you want to tow a car, esp' when travelling abroad in the future.

Regards,

Brendan

[Brian Kirby]

PeteH - 2012-07-17 7:54 AM..............Why "A" Frame AT ALL? simples!, Try parking a Trailer on a Spanish Campsite (for one)!! Even our own Caravan Club will "look down there noses" at effectively 3 Vehicles on a Pitch!!. Especially if like me you are towing with a 9+M R-V!!.

This is on of the principle arguments in favour of the A-frame, with which many agree. However, convenience and legality are, sadly, two different things.

 

Why has the "A" frame never been Banned?. Not sure, but I suspect because (in the UK) 1) No one has been actually taken to court for it. and like driving 9tonne R-v`s on a B1+E licence (as some do). The courts have never made "case law" out of it Ergo a "grey area".

Why would it be banned? In UK it is accepted that providing a car complies with trailer regulations, it may be regarded as a trailer. The A-frame alone cannot not achieve this, it is the car itself that requires further adaptations so as to comply, so why ban the A-frame?

 

B1+E, or I think, C1+E? Well if they do they are rather stupid. After that is no "grey" area. They may well find themselves stopped, fined, and forced to abandon their van where it is. Should they have an accident, they may well find their insurers reject their claims. Of course, they may continue getting away with it. But, if they don't, they will be liable to find the consequences extremely time consiumin, and very costly indeed.

 

Why do the Spanish and Portuguese make a "big thing" out of something so simple and beneficial? No idea. ...........

But, had you read the whole string before posting, you would know exactly why Spanish and Portuguese (and sometimes the French) police stop and fine people using A-frames. It is because they are doing what police are supposed to do, which is to enforce their national laws. In France, Spain, and Portugal it is illegal for one motor vehicle to tow another. There are very specific exceptions, but a motorhome towing a car via an A-frame does not fall within these.

 

My personal opinion? That the Spanish and Portuguese Authorities are Particularly Stupid!!. They have failing economies, desperately in need of "tourist income" ,and they ramp up the persecution of those who choose to "A" frame?. The Americans by contrast promote their use, offer sophisticated braking and towing systems, produce data on what Automatic cars WILL tow etc;. to encourage the use and thereby travel and spending!!.

 

I don't (really) care if its legal or not to "A" frame, Its not IMHO Immoral, and that`s good enough for me!!!

 

Pete

The laws that ban the towing of one motor vehicle by another pre-date recent financial upheavals, so the jingoistic assertion that their motivation is financial is misplaced. Citing what any one country does, is not relevant to what other countries do. Try telling the rest of the world to be more like us, and see where you get!

 

I don't know if breaking other countries' laws on grounds of mere personal convenience is immoral or not, but it is IMO discourteous, foolish, and liable to end in tears.

[Woodlander]

As the author of the original question, this has been a really interesting discussion.

I looked carefully at all the advice and opted for an A-frame.

According to the MMM mag, there are a number of companies which fit A-frames and there are many different types.

I decided to go with Towbars-2-Towcars based in Grimsby.

The A-frame has been designed by the owner and he is a qualified engineer and an inventor who has had singular success with his innovations and inventions including the electronic log recording device (I forget what they call them) used by lorry drivers.

They did all the electrics and fitting. This involved leaving the Smart Car with them for a day (courtesy car provided) while spending the day exploring the area and the night at a nearby site, then leaving the motorhome the next day to fit the electrics.

All very efficient, and a good handover session. We have now used the A-frame twice and it has been a boon.

Freedom at last to explore all those little byways and coastal villages.

We would not be without it.

The main thing to remember is to ensure the handbrake if off and the gears in neutral before setting off.

And let me put another bete noir to bed - when towing a Smart car there is no need to leave in the ignition key. There is no steering lock on a Smart Car.

[Mike B.]

I've had a C1 (My wifes car) for 5 years now-supplied by T-2-T with fitted A-frame by them and the 13 pin plug on the van also fitted by them. (7 pin didn't give continous feed required for electronic braking)

I found them 1st class with the deal and have had almost 5 years trouble free. (Touch wood!)

The only problem I had was I lost the little rubber grommit they place in the bumper and they posted me a replacement foc.

The system works perfectly and I hardly notice it's on the back when towing.

As I've said on many occasions on this subject-It's up to the individual how you feel about A-Frames or trailer-we have both (Trailer for bike) and use which ever suits at the time. However, for good service I would definitely reccommend this company

 

Mike

[Rayjsj]

I have just noticed that a neighbour of mine has changed his 'Brian James trailer/ Smart Car' set-up for an A-Frame + small mistibushi 4-door.

I asked him why, and mentioned about illegality abroad and possible law change here, etc.,

He said he got fed up with loading/unloading, having to ask for a bigger pitch (and sometimes being charged extra) for the trailer and the storage needed at home. The A-frame solves all of those problems, he added he should have got one ages ago, and gave me contact information. A- frames are becoming more and more common (in the UK), I suspect that a 'Tipping point' is being reached whereby it will be impossible to retrospectively ban these devices. (in the UK) whatever Europe decrees.

The 'need' for A-frame use in the UK is being driven by the lack of suitable parking for motorhomes (by local councils) in Seaside resorts and other popular touring destinations, meaning that an alternative means of transport is required (and not all of us can ride bikes) and public transport can be non-existant although not always. Ray

[Woodlander]

Re legality of A-frames on the Continent, I forgot to mention that Towbars-2-Towcars present you with a handover pack containing a declaration in four languages - English, French, Portugese and Spanish, - that the A-frame they supply complies with all EU requirements.
This declaration can be produced to the police as required.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Ha ha ha..and the man with the gun in Spain will probably slap you round the head with it! for wasting his time!.A frame towing is banned in Spain

[DWC66]

Hi Woodlander,glad you are pleased with your A Frame & Smart car.

 

We are taking our smart car to Martin Clack to have a Smart Tow fitted on Monday.

 

Can you tell me..how do you fit the number plate of the motorhome to the car?

 

Also do you put an "ON TOW" sign on the back window?. If so where can we purchase one (with the red triangles)?

 

Any information would be welcome :-)

 

Thanks,

 

Janice.

[malc d]

Woodlander - 2012-10-06 9:47 AM

Re legality of A-frames on the Continent, I forgot to mention that Towbars-2-Towcars present you with a handover pack containing a declaration in four languages - English, French, Portugese and Spanish, - that the A-frame they supply complies with all EU requirements.

This declaration can be produced to the police as required.

But, does the handover pack remind you that the use of an A-frame in Spain is illegal ?

[peacock312]

nip down to Halfords with your reg documents,get a duplicate no.plate to fit on car ,i have two rubber clips on this plate which clips onto car plate,others use inexpensive expanding metal clips. i have on tow magnetic sign, dont use it ,not compulsory,why bring attention to yourself, i cannot see any benefit,safety or otherwise

[peacock312]

sorry,forgot to say,Chris Cox,tel no 01216816513 or 07957 231 872 can supply both

[DWC66]

Thank you.

 

We already have the duplicate number plate, wasn't sure how to attach without leaving marks on the car though :-S

 

Will try Chris Cox for the rubber clips.

 

Thanks again.

 

:-)

 

Janice.

[Woodlander]

DWC66 - 2012-10-06 4:18 PMHi Woodlander,glad you are pleased with your A Frame & Smart car.We are taking our smart car to Martin Clack to have a Smart Tow fitted on Monday.Can you tell me..how do you fit the number plate of the motorhome to the car?Also do you put an "ON TOW" sign on the back window?. If so where can we purchase one (with the red triangles)?Any information would be welcome :-) Thanks,Janice.

Hi Janice

Towbards-2-Towcars supplied us with a duplicate reg plate and a special gadget which allows you to swap plates within seconds. It's a special holder which you clip the reg plate into and it is secured with a plastic strip. Dead easy.

They also supplied a detachable Tow-Car sign with red triangles and fitted it with small velcro tabs to the rear window. Apparently "On Tow" signs are not legal. All you need legally are the two red triangles. Our sign simply says Tow Car.

If you contact Towbars-2-Towcars I am sure they will supply you with one of the clip on reg plate holders.

Google them or ring them on:
01472-360-080

[Woodlander]

JudgeMental - 2012-10-06 11:05 AMHa ha ha..and the man with the gun in Spain will probably slap you round the head with it! for wasting his time!.A frame towing is banned in Spain

OK - take a look at this:

http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/the_system.php

[Guest JudgeMental]

Woodlander - 2012-10-07 10:28 AM

JudgeMental - 2012-10-06 11:05 AMHa ha ha..and the man with the gun in Spain will probably slap you round the head with it! for wasting his time!.A frame towing is banned in Spain

OK - take a look at this:

http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/the_system.php

Dear me...you really need to learn to do your own research and stop believing salesman's BS and patter...I spoke to this "firm" you are promoting, thread reads like an advert IMO. When he tried to sell me a repaired damaged Cat something car, and had no interest in fitting kit to my own car...I stayed well clear!. Hope you HPI checked the car they sold you!We downsized to panel van and carry e bikes so no need anyway, particuilirly as we holiday exclusively abroad really don't need the hassle