dipstick0_0 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I have recently used a tow a car A frame for the first time and I must say I didnt know I had a car behind me I have towed caravans for several years and never had a problem reversing However I found myself in a cul de sac and needed to reverse my motorhome with the car on the back The front wheels of the car did not act as expected and help the car around they just seemed to jam up question is what am I doing wrong ??? I got there in the end but it was nothing like reversing a caravan So any tips please!!! :$ :$ :$ :$ :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 dipstick0_0 - 2012-07-10 10:17 AM I have recently used a tow a car A frame for the first time and I must say I didnt know I had a car behind me I have towed caravans for several years and never had a problem reversing However I found myself in a cul de sac and needed to reverse my motorhome with the car on the back The front wheels of the car did not act as expected and help the car around they just seemed to jam up question is what am I doing wrong ??? I got there in the end but it was nothing like reversing a caravan So any tips please!!! :$ :$ :$ :$ :-D Think you will find it almost impossible to turn a towed car around in a cul-de-sac due to the way the wheels act when reversing. Many will say that it is impossible to reverse a car on an A Frame at all but I have reversed one in a straight line for short distances and also off a narrow bridge on a bend. The only tips I can give is reverse very slowly with small corrections of the steering. Good luck, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snitrats Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 We don't even bother thinking about revering our a frame, we keep a strap handy that holds the frame vertical, hooked between the frame and the car bonnet, quicker to unhook and turn the car. Also with a strap you can hold the a frame in position whilst you hook up , makes one man hooking up possible' If you look at smart tow web site they show a reversing video, this system uses electrical braking unlike yours where the brakes come on when reversing.Watch the video a look what happens to the front wheels, Could cause damage to the whole steering system, and if your car is under warranty ,say goodbye to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 NOW that is a surprise! That reversing a car with 2 fixed wheels at back + to twiddly wheels at front, is more difficult then reversing a 2 wheel trailer or caravan,,,Who would have thought! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooie Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 There is a very simple answer is you are not " doing " anything wrong. They are a nightmare and it has to be done very very slowly and because you cannot see the car for most of time this makes it worse. A caravan has 1 pivot point and a car on a A-frame has 2 pivot points. The first is at the tow ball and the second it at the front wheel on the car. I have a HGV Class 1 licence and i will reverse " Arctics, Articulated " or whatever you want to call them all day long and the longer the trailer the better because a 40ft trailer reacts a lot slower than a 20ft trailer. Then you have the " Wagon and Drag or Draw Bar " set up. Basically a wagon and a trailer that are roughly the same size with a similar type of A-Frame steering the front wheels. These are a nightmare to reverse and have the same 2 pivot points. A good example of these are the majority of wagons that carry straw. The simplest and easiest was is to unhitch. You`ll be surprised at how quick you`ll become. Before all the " purists " start i have used general terms to try and describe something to someone to try and help them understand without getting too technical. Hope this helps Regards Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Forgive the intrusion into family grief, but where are all those A-frame experts who, whenever the difficulty of reversing with these devices is raised, avow that reversing is no problem and perfectly possible? :-D Eh? :-D In any car that is pushed backwards the steering caster will cause it to swing to full lock on whichever side is down-camber. This geometry is what lends the steering directional stability when travelling forwards. It is the reason you can take your hands from the wheel when travelling forwards, and not immediately veer into the ditch. Travelling in reverse the effect, not surprisingly, is reversed and the vehicle immediately veers to one side or the other. Your A-frame tries to resist this characteristic, resulting in the car being pushed straight back despite its front wheels on full lock, so scrubbing the tyres along the road. This problem is an inevitable consequence of using an A-frame. To avoid it, detach car from van and turn car separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yet another reason why we have never gone for the daft idea of towing anything behind a motorhome. Would find it a nightmare, we get lost so often and change our minds so often it would be a disaster. Towing would restrict what we do and places we go to much to consider it, buy a caravan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 So you keep saying.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Simple answer.....'don't'. As you found it is beyond 'tricky' so unhook and drive both vehicles to where you want/need to be......re-hitch and away you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstick0_0 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 well thanks for all the sensible feedback and comments I dont feel so bad now that I know I was doing nothing wrong :-) :-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 dipstick0_0 - 2012-07-10 10:17 AM I have recently used a tow a car A frame for the first time and I must say I didnt know I had a car behind me I have towed caravans for several years and never had a problem reversing However I found myself in a cul de sac and needed to reverse my motorhome with the car on the back The front wheels of the car did not act as expected and help the car around they just seemed to jam up question is what am I doing wrong ??? I got there in the end but it was nothing like reversing a caravan So any tips please!!! :$ :$ :$ :$ :-D Just out of interest why did you go down the cul de sac with a car on an A Frame? Was it your wife's fault or a Sat Nav? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstick0_0 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 well I have to admit it was my fault I should have known where I was going but for some reason I turned right one junction too early on an estate after visting friends Hope the wife sees my confession that should earn a few brownie points lol (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi, I have a jockey wheel on my Car-A-Tow A frame, and yes it is virtually impossible to reverse, just unhitch like the rest of us it is a lot safer and easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugga Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have a theory (it may not work, but then again it might) that if you ask your navigator to sit in the car being towed and holds the steering wheel, keeping the front wheels in a straight line, you MAY be able to reverse it. It will be fairly disconcerting for the person holding the wheel, but it might work if you are in a tight spot. Now, who wants to put this theory to the test?? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Could this very point be why and how A frames don't meet with UK trailer legislation and are therefore not ctually legal in this country? No I don't have an axe to grind over A frames other than with people who claim they are compliant with UK legislation when they are patently NOT! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Seems to me the ongoing A frame debacle just shows that people seem to have lost the plot with motorhomes............ ;-)............A motorhome in my view is about being able to travel to places park up near the place you want to visit then MOVE ON to the next place of interest ;-)............That is motorhoming in my book..............but we have found that we have many different interests at different times of year ;-)..........So have now bought a box trailer to provide us with all the extra's we want when on site for a month or more :D............................and now I'm researching trailer sailers for when I want to park up in St Tropez and mix with the hoi poli B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-07-11 7:45 PMCould this very point be why and how A frames don't meet with UK trailer legislation and are therefore not ctually legal in this country?No I don't have an axe to grind over A frames other than with people who claim they are compliant with UK legislation when they are patently NOT!D. Says who Dave? As I have one and was sold it as being legal I would be interested to know because if the manufacturer knowingly sold me something that is 'patently illegal' in the UK I'll sue his ass.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Roger, do a Google for EEC Directive 71/320/EEC and for UNECE Regulation 30. UNECE 30 is the new one that is reportedly to be adopted from 2014. Have a read, and then try to work out how current A-frames, and especially their braking systems, actually comply. I'll freely admit that I can't, but I'm not manufacturing, selling, buying, or using one, so my incentive is a bit diminished. :-) However, from what I have read, neither the braking, nor the reversing, provisions have been met because, AFAIK, none of the makers have submitted vehicles, when fitted with their A-frames, for the required brake efficiency tests. Under 71/320/EEC a car fitted with an A-frame will qualify as a "full trailer", that is to say a four wheeled trailer that transfers no proportion of its weight to the towing vehicle through is draw bar. The requisite braking efficiencies are laid out: apparently 50% in the case of a full trailer. Unless tested, compliance cannot be demonstrated. Where are these tests? Bear in mind also that logically, each make/model of car fitted with an A-frame will have to be individually tested, because they will all have differing braking characteristics. One size cannot fit all. Has the braking efficiency of your car, as a trailer, been properly tested and certified as achieving at least 50%? If the trailer has brakes, they must automatically disengage when the vehicle is reversed. It is not acceptable for any intervention by the driver, or anyone else, to be required to achieve this. How is this achieved with your A-frame? My understanding is that there must be a handbrake capable of holding the trailer on (I think) a 16% hill. This handbrake should be readily available in an emergency, which I assume means the one in the car is not acceptable. Is this achieved by your A-frame? There seems to be a requirement that where the trailer is fitted with ABS, it must work. Many cars, possibly yours, have ABS. Logically, for this to work the brake servo must also be working, and the ignition must be on. If you agree that this requirement is stated, as seems to me the case, does your A-frame achieve this? Beyond this, to me, there is a clear implication in the requirement for the trailer brakes to automatically disengage when reversing, that reversing manoeuvres must be capable of being carried out. Otherwise, why require the brakes to disengage? Simply put, a car on an A-frame cannot even be reversed in a straight line, leave alone in any more complex manoeuvre. I cannot understand how satisfactory reversing can be claimed, when the steering will inevitably veer to one or other full lock after a short distance, in which mode the "trailer" is being forced straight back with its front wheels at an angle to its direction of travel. The concept of the A-frame, versus that of placing the car on a trailer, is immensely appealing, but unless and until someone is able to demonstrate that the above flaws have been eliminated, I do not think they can, realistically, be claimed to comply with current trailer regulations. Whether that makes them "illegal" I will not speculate, but it certainly seems to me to make them at best non-compliant. So I'm sorry, but I think far too much is being taken on trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-07-12 4:56 PMRoger, do a Google for EEC Directive 71/320/EEC and for UNECE Regulation 30. UNECE 30 is the new one that is reportedly to be adopted from 2014. Have a read, and then try to work out how current A-frames, and especially their braking systems, actually comply. I'll freely admit that I can't, but I'm not manufacturing, selling, buying, or using one, so my incentive is a bit diminished. :-)However, from what I have read, neither the braking, nor the reversing, provisions have been met because, AFAIK, none of the makers have submitted vehicles, when fitted with their A-frames, for the required brake efficiency tests.Under 71/320/EEC a car fitted with an A-frame will qualify as a "full trailer", that is to say a four wheeled trailer that transfers no proportion of its weight to the towing vehicle through is draw bar. The requisite braking efficiencies are laid out: apparently 50% in the case of a full trailer. Unless tested, compliance cannot be demonstrated. Where are these tests? Bear in mind also that logically, each make/model of car fitted with an A-frame will have to be individually tested, because they will all have differing braking characteristics. One size cannot fit all. Has the braking efficiency of your car, as a trailer, been properly tested and certified as achieving at least 50%?If the trailer has brakes, they must automatically disengage when the vehicle is reversed. It is not acceptable for any intervention by the driver, or anyone else, to be required to achieve this. How is this achieved with your A-frame?My understanding is that there must be a handbrake capable of holding the trailer on (I think) a 16% hill. This handbrake should be readily available in an emergency, which I assume means the one in the car is not acceptable. Is this achieved by your A-frame?There seems to be a requirement that where the trailer is fitted with ABS, it must work. Many cars, possibly yours, have ABS. Logically, for this to work the brake servo must also be working, and the ignition must be on. If you agree that this requirement is stated, as seems to me the case, does your A-frame achieve this?Beyond this, to me, there is a clear implication in the requirement for the trailer brakes to automatically disengage when reversing, that reversing manoeuvres must be capable of being carried out. Otherwise, why require the brakes to disengage? Simply put, a car on an A-frame cannot even be reversed in a straight line, leave alone in any more complex manoeuvre. I cannot understand how satisfactory reversing can be claimed, when the steering will inevitably veer to one or other full lock after a short distance, in which mode the "trailer" is being forced straight back with its front wheels at an angle to its direction of travel.The concept of the A-frame, versus that of placing the car on a trailer, is immensely appealing, but unless and until someone is able to demonstrate that the above flaws have been eliminated, I do not think they can, realistically, be claimed to comply with current trailer regulations. Whether that makes them "illegal" I will not speculate, but it certainly seems to me to make them at best non-compliant. So I'm sorry, but I think far too much is being taken on trust. As I suspected Brian....I checked out the references, (though the UNECE 30 search only found tyre regs) and nearly fell asleep after the first few sections hence I went to Car a tow and read their writings on their conversation with the DfT. Whilst I realise they have a commercial interest they must surely be portraying the situation with any eye to the 'legalities' because otherwise they are leaving themselves wide open to legal action for mis-representation if it is found that A frames are illegal. I realise this discourse could go on and on and on but for the time being I, as an A frame occasional user will continue to do so until something 'concrete' is produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-07-11 7:45 PM Could this very point be why and how A frames don't meet with UK trailer legislation and are therefore not ctually legal in this country? No I don't have an axe to grind over A frames other than with people who claim they are compliant with UK legislation when they are patently NOT! D.So you also keep saying. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Its pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-07-13 6:58 AMIts pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation.D. Dave that is a strong statement seeing as the DfT can't come to the same conclusion as you with all their 'legal' heads on.......I'll stick to the premise that they ARE LEGAL until incontrovertible proof to the contrary is provided by 'the Establishment'.............barrack room lawyers (just my old military head searching for the way to express myself so no offence intended) opinions don't really hold much water when it comes down to the realities of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Dave Newell - 2012-07-13 6:58 AM Its pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation. D. I don't know if many of the barrack room lawyers on here could reverse a trailer for more than a few feet in a straight line. Probably not. Does that make trailers illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 aultymer - 2012-07-13 10:40 AM Dave Newell - 2012-07-13 6:58 AM Its pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation. D. I don't know if many of the barrack room lawyers on here could reverse a trailer for more than a few feet in a straight line. Probably not. Does that make trailers illegal? This is foolish. Dave correctly states the essence of the requirement: that it is able to be reversed etc. That is a functional requirement for a trailer, and has no bearing whatsoever on the ability of a driver to realise it. What is your actual point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 RogerC - 2012-07-13 9:22 AMDave Newell - 2012-07-13 6:58 AMIts pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation.D. Dave that is a strong statement seeing as the DfT can't come to the same conclusion as you with all their 'legal' heads on.......I'll stick to the premise that they ARE LEGAL until incontrovertible proof to the contrary is provided by 'the Establishment'.............barrack room lawyers (just my old military head searching for the way to express myself so no offence intended) opinions don't really hold much water when it comes down to the realities of life. Two things Roger. First, the DfT is not giving a legal opinion. Second, the opinion they give is qualified. The qualification is merely that the A-frame outfit can be considered as a trailer - providing it complies with the necessary regulations. So clearly, if it doesn't comply, it isn't a trailer, it is a car on tow. You are correct: barrack room lawyers opinions hold no water. Neither, for that matter do real lawyers opinions, which is why they have to argue their cases before a judge! :-) There is an unkind expression, rather blunt, but it illustrates a thread that endlessly pervades these discussions. "You can always tell a closed mind, but not much." :-) Far too often, in response to a query from a poster on the subject of A-frames, one sees wise and sensible cautions rubbished by those who merely want them to be legal because they are a convenience, and who go on to stand logic on its head to try to prove their point. In the UK, their use is not banned, which allows them to be used. Outside the UK the situation is different, and this is very relevant because many more folk read these forums than contribute, and many folk do want to travel abroad. There will be no legal redress against sellers if the law is changed, how could there be? When bought they were deemed (but always subject to that qualifying proviso) legal. If the law is changed and they are no longer legal, the inevitable response would be: "that was then, this is now"!If Bruce is correct about the illegality of their use in Portugal, that means that they cannot legally be used in France, Spain, or Portugal. People need to understand this, because so many visit those countries. If they understand where they stand legally, how they then choose to react is entirely their own decision. If they do not understand that difference, and are left in ignorance, they are liable to discover at some point that ignorance is not bliss! I simply ask, is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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