LPG

[franki]

Hi its us again Franki and Sandi with another problem that hopefully you can help us with.

 

We travel in Europe quite a lot and although have not yet run out of gas we have come very close. We decided to try to fit a refillable system, we know we could easily fit gas-flow refillable tanks, however we hoped that we could have a tank fitted under the vehicle which would allow us to carry more gas and also free up the gas cupboard for storage.

 

Today we went to a very good LPG converter who can easily fit us a 60 litre tank under the vehicle, there is however as always with us a down side. It appears that modern gas tanks are fitted with an electric solenoid, this will draw approximately 1amp which would make it a bit dicey if staying a couple of days or so without electric hook-up.

 

This has also brought another question to mind, we are unable to run our fridge on gas if the leisure battery has gone flat. My initial thoughts were to try and get a 12 volt feed to the fridge straight from the battery as the battery is actually not flat its just the computer system saying it is.

 

My reasoning was I believed the fridge only needed a spark to start it on gas and could not see why it could not then run happily on its own, I now wonder if the fridge is also fitted with a similar safety solenode and therefore although running on gas still needs an electric supply. This would also explain to us why our battery sometimes loses charge when only the fridge is being used.

 

Could anyone help us with what they have done or possible ways around these problems, as it would seem we may have to just accept the perfect solution FOR US is not possible ans therefore have second best and fit gas-flow tanks.

 

We have a Autocruise Starburst 2008 model with two 6 kilo gas tanks with no space for larger unless underslung, and a 120 amp leisure battery (as those of you who followed the saga last year will be well aware).

 

Thanks Frank and Sandi

[Derek Uzzell]

I was not aware that modern LPG tanks of the type fitted to motorhomes needed to have an electric solenoid. This may indeed be the case (though I ain't convinced!), but I suggest you confirm It with other LPG tank providers/installers.

 

If you GOOGLE-search on "motorhome gas tanks" (omitting the quotes) you'll find the websites of a number of well-known companies (Autogas 2000, Conrad Anderson, etc.) who should be able to advise if you phone them.

 

I do know that some French leisure-vehicle LPG systems - for example Borel's "Homegaz" system -

 

http://www.borel.fr/index.php/gpl-vehicule-loisir.html

 

include a solenoid-operated safety-valve, but I don't think this is mandatory for UK-installed systems.

 

As you say, if an underslung tank must now be fitted with an electrical device that continuously draws 1A, you'd be better off with GASLOW bottles.

 

The type of fridge likely to have been installed in a 2008 motorhome needs a viable and continuous 12V supply to power its electronic control-system. This will be the case irrespective of whether the fridge is operating on 230V, 12V or gas. A flat leisure-battery essentially means a dead fridge. Realistically, there's no way to 'bodge around' this.

 

This earlier thread may be of interest:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28244&posts=14

 

 

 

[franki]

Hi Derek thanks for your help, will contact a few more converters to check out the legal situation.

 

On your last point i.e. a flat battery means a dead fridge, do you know what the draw would be on the fridges electric gismo?? I was wondering if it would be possible to fit a 12 volt feed to the main battery (switched of course) so fridge could be used in an emergency. This may sound extreme but if you are in 40degree temperateness a fridge is impossible to go without.

 

Thanks Frank

[Mel B]

Hi guys

 

From what you are saying I think you seriously need to look at your electrical power system too. It sounds like you are constantly running your battery down below the recommended level and will not do it any good, I would therefore suggest you think about getting a second battery fitted, or changing your current battery (no pun intended!) for a larger powered one if it will fit, also possibly consider a solar panel to keep them charged up. This way you would be able to keep your fridge and other electrical stuff running.

 

As for refillable LPG systems, have you checked to see if you can get a Gaslow 11kg in your gas locker? It may be of a different size to the standard larger Calor type and fit in there, in which case you could consider having a Calor 6kg and a Gaslow 11kg, or whatever combination will fit.

 

Another alternative is to see if your existing gas locker can be modified to take larger bottles?

[Derek Uzzell]

franki - 2012-07-26 3:10 PM

 

On your last point i.e. a flat battery means a dead fridge, do you know what the draw would be on the fridges electric gismo??...

 

No, but it won't be very much, whatever make or model of 3-way fridge you've got.

 

I recall that, when Dometic introduced the "Powerfridge" appliances, that were the first of their fridges to require a continuous 12V supply for the control electronics, one UK motorhome manufacturer (in the time-honoured way) took the 12V feed from the vehicle's starter-battery, not from the leisure-battery as Dometic advised. Motorcaravanners staying on campsites for extended periods on 230V hook-up began to find that they couldn't start their motorhome when it became time to move on. These particular motorhomes' onboard charging system charged just the leisure-battery, so did not top-up the charge of the starter-battery that was being slowly but insidiously drained by the fridge.

 

What you are suggesting should work OK, I think, and (based on my own Dometic's wiring instructions and assuming yours is much the same) should be straightforward to implement. An ammeter reading taken at the appropriate connector at the rear of the fridge would reveal the current-drain.

[snowie]

franki - 2012-07-26 1:36 PM

 

 

 

We travel in Europe quite a lot and although have not yet run out of gas we have come very close. ............... we hoped that we could have a tank fitted under the vehicle which would allow us to carry more gas.........

which would make it a bit dicey if staying a couple of days or so without electric hook-up.

 

This has also brought another question to mind, we are unable to run our fridge on gas if the leisure battery has gone flat. My initial thoughts were to try and get a 12 volt feed to the fridge straight from the battery as the battery is actually not flat its just the computer system saying it is.

 

 

Could anyone help us with what they have done or possible ways around these problems, as it would seem we may have to just accept the perfect solution FOR US is not possible ans therefor

 

Thanks Frank and Sandi

 

I've no idea how you use your gas or leisure battery, whether you use hook-up often or rely on your leisure battery; what time of year you mostly travel; or whether you are on the road most of the year, so I'll just say this;

 

We have a 15 Litre Stakis tank fitted under our Ducato PVC, we have a compressor fridge (65Ltr), and a pair of 110Amp leisure batteries.

We have not needed a refill of gas on a couple of 6 week trips, and we've had 72 hours without hook-up and only short road distance between overnight stops: and we've not had any problems.

If your main worry is running out of gas; then having 15-60 litres of gas should pretty well rule out any problems (IMHO), other than complacency and forgetfulness!

regards

alan b

[Brian Kirby]

I agree with Mel, if you find you are running your battery down to the point at which the cut-off isolates it, unless the cut-off is itself faulty, you are running the battery far to low, and will be damaging it. If that rate of consumption merely reflects your normal pattern of use, you need to reduce consumption (for example, LED lights wherever possible), increase battery capacity as Mel suggests, or install some means to re-charge while static - of which the solar panel is probably the best option. Ideally, the battery should not be discharged below 60% of its rated capacity - assuming that rating is not one of the over-flattering ones! What that means is that you should not take more than about 70Ah from your 120Ah battery, and ideally no more than 60Ah.

 

Bearing in mind your comments re fridge consumption: whether or not there needs to be a solenoid on the gas tank, the best way of countering a continual 24 hour battery drain must surely, in the absence of mains, be a solar panel. You would need to drive quite a long way to re-charge a heavily discharged battery from the alternator, and it is probable that you do not achieve this, meaning you merely refresh it a bit, and than start running it down again too quickly. Thus, is it being progressively starved. The solar panel will generally put back as you draw out, and will put in more than the fridge circuits, and any gas solenoid, together draw out.

 

Doubling capacity would give you greater reserves, so you would be less likely to flatten the battery, but would somewhat exacerbate the problem of insufficient charge from driving (You would probably need to put more Amps back because, having greater capacity, you would then probably tend to take more Amps out :-)).

 

However, if you mainly us the van where the sun (generally :-)) shines, as your post implies, a solar panel will help to charge the batteries at more or less any time there is good light, meaning that even if it doesn't quite complete the job before you leave, driving a relatively short distance should. The one caveat is that if you hide the van in shade under trees when it is hot, the panel will not perform.

 

I would suggest you try to get a handle on your actual consumption over 24 hours before you decide which way to jump, because it may be that just a panel, without the extra battery capacity, may be sufficient. Then you'll need to do some calculations, to try to work out which solution will best suit your circumstances.

[Derek Uzzell]

Regarding the battery issue, it's worth revisiting Page 1 of this earlier thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26707&start=1

 

It appears that (in March 2012) a new Varta 105Ah leisure-battery was fitted that helped franki address currrent-drain limitations.

 

Where carriage of LPG is concerned, a 60 litres tank (about 30kg of LPG) is equivalent to carrying a pair of 15kg Calor butane bottles. As franki has never yet run out of gas while travelling abroad with just two 6kg bottles (say 24 litres of LPG), opting for such a large capacity REFILLABLE gas-reservoir seems to me like overkill. The larger the capacity of an underslung tank the more it will cost, and the more underfloor space it will normally consume with a potential impact on ground clearance.

 

While I can appreciate the desire to free up the Starburst's gas-locker for storage, if the locker has been designed to tightly accommodate just 2 x 6kg bottles the gain won't be immense. Me, I'd forget the tank and opt for a refillable bottle system.

 

This website advertises a wide range of LPG containers and fittings

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/

 

and a complete 2 x 6kg-bottle 'kit' would cost about £300.

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=289

 

It's perhaps worth adding that it's much simpler to transfer refillable gas-bottles from one vehicle to another than it is to transfer a gas-tank. Something to bear in mind if it's envisaged that a motorhome will be replaced in the not too distant future.

[Tracker]

External storage is not the strong point of a Starburst - or at least it isn't on the earlier Boxer chassis.

 

There is some space in the toilet compartment of our for storage and a couple of shelves in the corners helps to maximise that for us so I can see the advantage of an underslung gas tank.

 

The Alko chassis is quite low and you need to be sure it will not ground your tank on bumpy sites and when exploring.

 

I fitted a second leisure battery (behind the passenger seat tight and boxed in against the bed locker) with a solar panel three years ago and it cured all my 12v problems instantly.

 

Ours has Eberspacher heating and takes a lot more power than a gas system so either a solar panel or a second battery should sort you out as a battery is cheaper and easier to fit than a solar panel.

 

On the other hand a solar panel keeps all the batteries topped up so you never have a flat battery when the van is standing unused for a week or three which kinda resurrects the case for solar!

 

A one amp draw is 12 watts which is 288 watts in 24 hours so a 60 watt solar panel should be able to cope with that most days and keep you fully charged when not in use

[franki]

Hi all,

 

Thanks again for all your help, I few options to consider so will think on it for a few days. It seems many of you think a solar panel would be worth while, and as the vehicle does stand idle for long periods when we are in Spain I think this would be a good idea.

 

As for the gas situation I probably am trying to get TOO good a system, I may have to be a bit more realistic.

 

The gas system as been quoted at £500, and the Gaslow system will cost £300, so for an extra £200 I will be able to carry twice the amount of gas and also have the extra storage. This has to be balanced against the extra weight and the possibility of grounding, although the fitters assure me the tank will be no lower than anything else on the vehicle. The exhaust pipe on our vehicle is ridiculously low so its unlikely we would ever ground the gas tank.

 

I suppose it all comes down to personal choice at the end, however you can't have too much advice when considering these fairly big changes.

 

Thank you all and we will keep you posted what we do.

 

Frank and Sandi

[Derek Uzzell]

franki - 2012-07-28 5:20 PM

 

...The gas system as been quoted at £500, and the Gaslow system will cost £300, so for an extra £200 I will be able to carry twice the amount of gas and also have the extra storage....

 

If your primary objective is to avoid running out of LPG while abroad, you can meet that requirement for significantly less than £300.

 

A single 6kg Gaslow bottle is advertised here for £106.

 

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Gaslow_Refillable_Cylinders___Accessories.html

 

You'd need to add the cost of suitable adapters for refilling abroad (say £50 for a set of three) and, say, £20 for a 'direct-fill' adapter to connect the bottle to the LPG pump-gun when refilling. That's around £180 for a basic, single-bottle Gaslow system, and you might be able to undercut that figure if you used "GASIT" products instead.

 

Unless it's wished to treat a motorhome as if it were a semi-static caravan, the value of a motorhome having a refillable LPG system is that the vehicle can occasionally visit a place where LPG is being sold, where the tank/bottle(s) can be topped up. While a single 6kg bottle (say 11.5 litres of LPG by volume at 80% full) may not sound much compared to a 60litre tank, it's still approaching half the quantity of gas you've managed to live with during your previous trips abroad.

 

I certainly would not recommend that you deliberately choose one 6kg refillable bottle if it's practicable to shoehorn a larger capacity LPG canister into your Starburst's locker for just a tenner more, but we are talking about REFILLABLE LPG systems here not exchange-only bottles, and a single smallish-capacity refillable bottle will be a viable proposition for many people. If there is concern about being unable to find an LPG-selling outlet when the bottle is about to run out, then carry an exchange-only bottle as well to tide you over in the short term.

 

If you opt for an underslung tank, then (cost-wise) I guess you might as well choose a big one as the overall expenditure would probably be not much more than for fitting a small one. On the other hand, as you've managed with 24 litres of gas before on your trips, it seems perverse to me to want to be driving around with the permanent weight of a 60litre tank-system and (for a lot of the time) with the weight of so much 'superfluous' gas in the tank, when you've no obvious need to do so.

 

A 2 x 6kg-bottle Gaslow system (which is what I assume your £300 quote would be purchasing) would contain about 23 litres of LPG that can be topped up when it runs low. Based on your previous usage, you might have to top up that system once per holiday.

 

The extra £200 for a 60 litres tank-based system would buy you the ability to avoid topping up the tank as frequently as with the Gaslow arrangement, meaning that (assuming you filled the tank before you went abroad) you'd probably be bringing back to the UK a fair proportion of the LPG you started out with.

 

I'd be asking myself a) whether carrying around a lot of 'redundant' LPG is logical and b) whether spending £200 on freeing up the gas-locker for storage is justifiable when that sum could go towards the cost of a solar panel.

 

 

 

[bolero boy]

Mel B - 2012-07-26 6:51 PM

 

As for refillable LPG systems, have you checked to see if you can get a Gaslow 11kg in your gas locker? It may be of a different size to the standard larger Calor type and fit in there, in which case you could consider having a Calor 6kg and a Gaslow 11kg, or whatever combination will fit.

Agreed - you need to actually empty the locker and physically try to fit in (say) one 11kg bottle as tolerances are fine and need to be verified in situ.

We were in Exmouth and I called into Outdoor Bits to 'borrow' an 11kg bottle for testing.

Our locker 'takes' 2 x 6kg calor bottles but we managed to squeeze in one 11kg Gaslow bottle (but no other bottle could be additionally fitted) and freed up 60% of the locker for levellers, hose, EHU etc.

So we have the same capacity, more flexible (refillable) and extra space.

Lastly to the OP - where can you get a twin bottle Gaslow kit with filling kit, all the adaptors and linking hoses (stainless steel) for £300?

Our single system 11kg bottle with adaptors, fill kit, s/s hoses and spanish Jumbo adaptor was £300 after price matching. I would suggest this twin kit would be nearer £500+.

http://www.outdoorbits.com/gaslow-dual-6kg-30mb-ultimate-kit-p-1380.html

[Derek Uzzell]

I would have thought that £300 was a bit of a bargain, but it ought to be possible to obtain a Gaslow 2 x 6kg bottle system for well under £400.

 

2 bottles from Hamilton Gas Products would currently cost £211.20, to which would need adding the cost of a refill-kit, a bottle-to-bottle connector-hose, a bottle-to-regulator hose, and the required refilling adapters. There would be no NEED for an auto-changeover device, nor for a Spanish Jumbo adapter.

 

The overall cost will depend on how complex and/or sophisticatad a refillable LPG system you want. You can pay £500 or (as shown on the following link and if you are not too worried about legality or foolproofness) £57.

 

http://tinyurl.com/cl8g4pr

[bigtree]

After getting some advice from a seasoned traveller I bought said device that Derek gave a link to.As long as you follow the instructions that come with it ,it is easy and much cheaper than say a gaslow system.I had to fill my 6kg bottle twice during my 3 month trip in Europe.

[Mel B]

I've been looking into gas refillable systems this weekend and some observations which may be of interest to others:

 

- The Gas It bottles are cheaper than Gaslow (£107 vs £115-£135)

- The Gas It system uses rubber hoses so they are a lot cheaper than the stainless steel Gaslow ones although you can get the s/s ones from Gaslow if you want them instead.

- You can use the Gas It bottles and Gaslow bottles together in the same system as they have the same connectors, so if you have a Gaslow bottle and want a second bottle, you can use a Gas It one if you wish.

 

To extend a single bottle system to a twin bottle system you need:

 

- 2nd bottle of whichever make/size you want (not dumpy Alugas one)

- T-piece for the 2nd bottle

- T-piece pipe to put on the regulator and connect existing hose on bottle 1 to one side of it

- Hose to connect bottle 2 to other side of T-piece on regulator

- Hose to connect bottles 1 and 2 (remove filling hose from bottle 1 and attach to bottle 2)

 

You can also add an automatic change-over valve if you wish but then you run the risk of running out of gas altogether if you don't check it! At least with a manual change over method once you swap from the empty bottle to the full one, you know you need to think about getting a refil for the first at some point.