Why go?

[Brian Kirby]

Not sure if this is truly a Motorhome Matters question, but if I stick it in Chatterbox I think it will just fall to the wrong audience, because it so repeatedly arises in Motorhome matters. Apologies, therefore, if it seems to be in the wrong forum.

 

However, folk frequently post along the lines of: "We are thinking of visiting (for example, Norway). Does anyone have an suggestions on where to go, where to stop, and good routes?"

 

My immediate (undoubtedly uncharitable :-)) reaction, is to shout at the screen "if you don't know, why are you going?", or "For goodness' sake go: find out!" I also tend to stay "silent" rather than contribute, because I don't want to spoil for them the fun of discovery. But then, I feel slightly guilty for holding back. So, I am intrigued. Is this difference just due to personality type, or what?

 

What does persuade folk to visit a country of which they apparently know nothing? Why go?

 

If it is to find out what is there, why do they ask others on here, instead of getting a guide book from a library, and then settling down to read it and - assuming they still think it looks interesting - pick out what interests them, and target those areas for their visit? Surely, finding what interests them, will prove more rewarding than finding what may have interested a total stranger - of whose tastes they know nothing?

 

It is true both methods rely on information prepared by others, but the guide books at least give an illustrated overview, and generally pick out the best, whereas most of us will have no more than a small, fleeting, incomplete, collection of personal snapshots. From a recent post on visiting the Czech Republic, for example, it was clear that for many it comprised little more than Prague. Yet, surely all would agree that London is not England, so how would we react to a foreigner claiming that he had visited England, when in fact he had only visited London? With scepticism, I suspect.

 

The same puzzles me with routes, and stopping places. There are thousands of roads, tens of thousands of sites, aires, or what you will, and there are copious maps and site/stopover guides. Places of interest along the route are easy to identify (those guides again) and, having found what is of interest, the route makes itself, linking the points of interest like daises on a chain. If discovery is the motivation, then the discoveries along one's own route, would surely bring greater reward, than finding what some total stranger had already discovered?

 

So, my puzzlement remains. Why do folk go? Blundering around a whole country, in the vain hope of discovering its treasures, is almost bound to disappoint. The best is often off the beaten track, and extremely unlikely to be discovered by serendipity. Sometimes, of course, one stumbles upon treasure, but a quick glimpse at almost any guide book is also liable to reveal it, meaning it could easily have been picked out with certainty as a place to spend an hour or three, and not left to chance.

 

To us, the planning is part of the journey. It is what feeds our curiosity and anticipation. It is, ultimately, why we go. Then, if we meet folk en route, and they mention places of interest, we can add them to the trip if so inclined. I'm not against the serendipitous approach, and am not criticising those who prefer it: I just don't understand its appeal.

 

Anyone prepared to say why they choose to wander lonely as Wordsworth's cloud, in preference to planning out their own mini-Cook's tour?

[nowtelse2do]

Go to chatterbox Brian, You just know you'll like it :-D

 

Dave

[Guest JudgeMental]

You need to get out more.....:D

 

You only get the occasional real example of indolence, something along the lines of: "Hey I'm visiting planet earth! Any good restaurant recommendations?"

 

Not even sure that the extreme examples are totally ignorant of the country they intend to visit, probably just from a motorhoming perspective that is all.......

 

I know that we plan our journeys in a similar fashion. Our 6 week trip to Italy/Croatia next week is planned with routes, attractions, Aires and campsites loaded to Garmin. That is not to say it is set in stone as we have guide books and read up and fine tune the detail as we go along....I just like to get as much out of a holiday as we can, a mix of relaxation, exhaustive driving in quick spurts, and gentle touring :-D

[nowtelse2do]

I don't think it would be a worthwhile forum if people did not ask those questions, what we would be left with would be questions like, what is the best to buy, a Ford or a Fiat or do I travel with water in the tank or leave it empty. Mundane questions to you and me but to a lot of others (especially new comers) quite legit IMO.

 

You and I are a well seasoned travellers but to a lot of people that might be thinking of a first trip abroad it could well be a daunting experience so where better to ask. How did you feel on your first trip, can you remember? I know I can, I had hardly got out the docks in Boulogne and made a huge mistake. Why should they not ask of the area they want to go. Yes, its easy with Internet to find out about places, but first hand knowledge of good and bad...do's and don'ts can help tremendously.

 

Apart from this coming holiday to Ireland, I don't generally plan the area where I go, only to the country I want to visit because like you I like to get off the beaten track. Don't forget that not all countries have the same type of facilities that Western Europe countries have, so it's a good idea to find out about those countries, like lets say, the old Iron Curtain countries from people who have been there.

 

Well that's my penny's worth anyway :-D

 

Dave

[Guest JudgeMental]

I dont think Brian is on about the mundane, but the completely blank and clueless post....which are thankfully rare

 

Its the mundane ones, when a quick "search" would reveal a multitude of answers that I find tedious....but peoples like to chat, and it gives derwek uzal a reason to carp on insistently. I think we have lost a lot of members over the years who just get fed up of the same old same old, unless of course they have fallen of their perch :-S

[Robinhood]

The answer is, of course, that we are all different (it's a bit like opinions on dogs, really,......but let's not go there B-) ). ........and, as the French say, vive la différence.

 

Having had to spend much of my working life planning and allowing for contingencies almost to the extreme, I have to say that planning my holidays to the same extent has never appealed to me, and spontanaiety and serendipity have served me well.

 

Having said that, whilst I can't subscribe to your first thought of "if you don't know, why are you going?", my approach has much more affinity with "For goodness' sake go: find out!"

 

We generally tour with an ultimate destination or two in mind, sometimes we get there, sometimes not, and it isn't unknown for us to end up in a totally different Country to that originally targeted (sometimes, even, by design ;-) ) .

 

I also find your view of guidebooks somewhat strange, as I often find them, to use your own words in an opposite context "no more than a small, fleeting, incomplete, collection of personal snapshots; in essence no better or worse than the views and opinions stated by posters on here. At least the latter often contain information that is relevant to our particular touring pursuit, and therefore might be considered the equivalent of a very specific "guidebook".

 

I feel quite capable of sifting either, particularly those of some of the characters on here, of whom I have formed a more than fleeting (though possibly flawed) opinion ;-).

 

Yes, we do do some research via guidebooks, particularly if looking for cultural pursuits or iconic attractions, but otherwise we are entirely happy to "wander", staying shorter or longer if we are enjoying a location or not, and fitting in with the weather when we can.

 

I'm generally happy, particularly when abroad, to absorb the atmosphere of whatever location I find myself in - some of the less touristy (non-guidebook) areas have been the nicest we've been to, and our unplanned "wanderings" have brought us to some very special places and people.

 

.....the essence of motorcaravanning to me.

 

So, in line with the above I seldom ask for such advice on here - though if we have a target, such as Copenhagen as last year, I might seek views about specific campsites - and in that particular case received a recommendation that was good.

 

I also tend to be rather sparing in my responses to generic questions, but will respond to those more specific (for instance, I have recommended a number of campsites in nominated areas), and indeed responded on the "Czech" question, largely because we "discovered" (exactly in the manner described above), the Upper Elbe valley on our trip there, and also a campsite in Prague that was both convenient and pleasant. As for posting large amounts of detail, (and of course, there is much more to the Czech republic than Prague) then generally, I'm of the opinion that "For goodness' sake go: find out!" is the correct response. ;-)

 

Planning more than the fundamentals would certainly "Thomas Cook" my holiday for me. ;-)

[nowtelse2do]

Yes Eddie, up to a point I agree, but it it people like Derek, Brian, Bruce, Clive, Don Mage (where has he gone, are you still with us Don? :-D ) etc with a vast knowledge between them to help others Even yourself with the knowledge of Italy and German M/H manufacturers and importing a van that make it less mundane because when a question is asked there is always a little bit more info given that wasn't there before. All first hand information, that's got to be good hasn't it. ;-)

 

I rest my case your honour.

 

Dave

[Guest JudgeMental]

Dave....you forgot about my extensive knowledge regards E Bikes *-)

 

(:D)

[Brian Kirby]

Interesting so far. More, more! :-D

 

Truly, I am/was not being critical. I certainly understand that some folk are a bit - even a lot - daunted by the idea of taking their van abroad. I understand, and generally respond to, their questions. I understand and respond to the questions about good sites near Bloggsville, as well.

 

It is just those who ask where to go in a whole country that boggle my mind. It is because countries, perhaps especially Italy and France, have such a range of scenery, climate, cultural heritage, regional architectures, activities, food - you name it - that my mind simply goes into a spin. Where and how to start, even. I just can't cope, I don't know how to respond, and (surprising as it may seem :-)) I don't want to offend, or lecture.

 

Look at a recent post about coastal France (and even that is more selective than some!) and you'll see two others who have the same generic reaction as me, but "externalise" it!

 

I may well by now be blasé, having first been abroad on a school exchange in the late 50s, and having holidayed outside the UK on and off ever since - money and children permitting! It is just that these posts suggest to me what seems like aimless, pointless, wandering. I have no quarrel if that is what folk wish to do. But as one has the means, the opportunity, and the time, why not mug up first - or at least take the muggings-up with one - and focus on those things, hidden or even obvious, that are of real personal interest and which, by and large, one would miss without the extra insights? One simply can't write a guide book on any forum, but one can give more specific information if one knows the specifics that are sought.

 

I too spent my working life planning, and largely enjoyed it, so maybe that is why I still enjoy the challenge. I get great satisfaction from picking something that looks interesting, working out how to get to it, and then visiting it to find if it is everything it is supposed to be. Not always: but far more often than not, it is.

 

Just one example: anyone been to the Church of the Holy Trinity at Hrastovlje in Slovenia, here: N45.50991 E13.90165? A tiny village folded into a broad valley, well away from main roads and routes, with a small fortified church, its curtain wall intact, containing an absolute riot of "primitive" frescoes covering almost every surface inside, including a spectacular dance of death that runs along one entire wall? Sheer magic, and full of atmosphere. But why is it there? You might find it by chance, possibly if badly lost, but otherwise? Without a guide, you'd pass it by, out of sight, en route for Croatia, by about 1 mile, and never know it existed.

[Retread24800]

Our first camping trip to France was when I hit 40 something, I had an urge to be totally irresponsible and so I took the back seats out of my company car, bought a second hand tent and cooker and headed eastward, the only concession I made was to buy a copy of the Michelin Camping, Caravanning France. My total prior French experience was several booze cruze to Calais and Boulogne.

Result:- Well nearly 30years later I live here And I've learnt that a little irresponsibility can open so many doors.

The assinine questions sometimes posed " wheres a quiet, cheap, dog/child free/friendly in Europe site" shows that people and in particular we British have become so bovine that independent action is not to be contemplated, We need the assurance that we will return relatively unharmed and refreshed.

One of the total culture shocks was the realisation that (within the bounds of common sense and good manners) I could park anywhere that was not otherwise prohibited, in the UK you can only park where indicated. and pay for parking? Quel Horreur.

 

[tonyishuk]

Probably a polite way of asking "Which Areas should avoided like the plague" !

 

Rgds

[nowtelse2do]

nowtelse2do - 2012-07-28 4:51 PM

 

Yes Eddie, up to a point I agree, but it it people like Derek, Brian, Bruce, Clive, Don Mage (where has he gone, are you still with us Don? :-D ) etc with a vast knowledge between them to help others Even yourself with the knowledge of Italy and German M/H manufacturers and importing a van that make it less mundane because when a question is asked there is always a little bit more info given that wasn't there before. All first hand information, that's got to be good hasn't it. ;-)

 

I rest my case your honour.

 

Dave

 

PS. almost forgot about the Judge's extensive knowledge on E bikes :D ;-) (that should keep him quiet)

[Tracker]

Why make a simple thing complicated?

 

Why go? Because it's there, because we are curious but mostly because we can!

 

Why plan if touristy things and things you are supposed to see don't appeal to everyone.

 

Some just like to meander and can find wonder and contentment in simple everyday sights and scenes.

 

It really is that simple and without criticising anyone in any way, this is probably something the compulsive planner will never understand!!

 

We get a broad idea of which parts of a country will hopefully interest us most and then we keeps it simples by just meandering with maybe the occasional touristy expected thing thrown in if only to make us appreciate the non touristy things more.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-07-28 7:18 PM

 

Just one example: anyone been to the Church of the Holy Trinity at Hrastovlje in Slovenia, here: N45.50991 E13.90165? A tiny village folded into a broad valley, well away from main roads and routes, with a small fortified church, its curtain wall intact, containing an absolute riot of "primitive" frescoes covering almost every surface inside, including a spectacular dance of death that runs along one entire wall? Sheer magic, and full of atmosphere. But why is it there? You might find it by chance, possibly if badly lost, but otherwise? Without a guide, you'd pass it by, out of sight, en route for Croatia, by about 1 mile, and never know it existed.

 

.....but in many ways, Brian, I think this serves to amplify my argument, rather than nullify it.

 

Presumably the said location is in a guidebook because at some point in the past it was "discovered" (without the benefit of a guidebook) by a compiler who took a liking to it and recorded it for posterity. Just think of the greater satisfaction and sense of amazement of that "first" discoverer who came across it unplanned. ;-)

 

There are still many amazing sites I don't know the existence of, and the great majority of those appear in no guide book, so my approach is to often rely on happenstance..

 

To use the same phrase as I used in my previous post, some sights are iconic, and thus not to be missed, but in general those are the ones that you are definitely going to be aware of when you travel (For instance, I wasn't going to go to Yosemite and not climb high to get a view of the "domes"); others are potentially life-enhancing, but are unlikely to be greatly regretted if you don't see them (and particularly if you don't know about them - and avoid retrospectivley reading guidebooks to an area you have visited ;-) ).

 

So, using a somewhat trite example, our trip last year took in Northern Germany (I particularly wanted to visit Lübeck), and Denmark (for Copenhagen).

 

Now, you know what you are going to get in these cities, (if you do your homework) and very nice it is too, but the major enjoyment in Copenhagen in particular was simply walking in the areas that aren't in the guidebooks, and discovering all kinds of thought-provoking scenes.

 

On the wider front, I'm not going to say that the architecture of Lübeck, planned and anticipated, was any more satisfying than the church at Horne (discovered on a bike ride), or the quayside at Sonderborg (an unplanned destination after another, unplanned, overnight stop proved inaccessible).

 

....all those things I missed that are in the guidebooks may have been better though! :-|

 

To quote that deep-thinking philosopher, A.A Milne, "One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries" ;-)

[kelly58]

I have made numerous posts requesting information regarding certain area's of Europe mainly France and Germany to which I have had excellent replies and am truely gratefull . We all have our likes and dislikes and we are all aware that France for example is a  very large country with many diverse regions , so information / input from fellow travellers is invaluable . People often say to us " where are you off to this time " ? and we usually just say France for a tour round , but as often as not we see posted on this forum details and pictures of some nice places we had not known about which then gives us food fo thought as to where to visit next , so please keep asking and posting and like others I hopefully can also contribute to other peoples requests for information.

[crinklystarfish]

Sometimes I broadly plan - usually linking nature reserves or renowned landscapes, mostly I bumble. I bumble most on the push bike. Some of the best memories are from bumbling. Guide books and recommendations don't usually help to find things like amazing sunsets, or little oddities, or chance wildlife encounters. 

I suppose it depends how you define 'treasures'.

I don't much like 'tourist trail' style of travel but sometimes reluctantly comply and suffer the tat stalls and artificiality. I even have a list of places I've reached but then not visited because I just couldn't stand the prospect of being shunted around with the hoards.

And so I happily set off to countries for the first time with little or nothing in the way of a hit list. Sometimes I pick up local tourist info leaflets, sometimes I don't.

I've narrowly missed many a world heritage site, but have also come across many very special things that most on the tourist trail will never see.

Incidentally, I rough camped at a cave not featured in local touristy type literature 3.9 miles from the Slovenian church to which Brian referred. I might have gone if I'd known about it, or maybe not.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Was just going to post a reply on the dangers of this sort of thread putting people of asking questions, but thought better of it. Only to look at new thread by John N on the Moselle, and he starts of by apologising to Brian. We all have different sensibilities and strengths, to some posting on an open forum can maybe be a little nerve racking...

 

So Brian, straight to the naughty step :-D

[Tracker]

I was about to say more or less the same as Eddie.

 

Nobody should ever be afraid of asking questions no matter how silly or trivial they may think it might be seen.

 

One man's lack of knowledge is another man's speciality and even when I don't intend to learn anything I invariably learn something new on here.

 

I just wish I could remember more of it!

[Mel B]

Brian Kirby - 2012-07-28 3:14 PM

Anyone prepared to say why they choose to wander lonely as Wordsworth's cloud, in preference to planning out their own mini-Cook's tour?

 

... because we can! Especially now that we don't have to be back for work anymore! :D

 

We tend to pick an area to go to, hubby will then have a shuftie at some of our 'guide' books, and where there are some aires to stop at, but that's about it. We like to see what's in an area we get to, visit out of the way places which we stumble on and usually find we've been extremely fortunate in doing so. He tends to have a shuftie each night in the 'van as I cook tea/wash-up to see where's seems good for a few days etc and we point the van in that direction and off we go. We don't spend lots of time at home planning where/when/how we'll go along. We've seen some brilliant stuff just by chance and if we want to detour somewhere else we do. We don't like being rigid in what we do/where we go ... we like the freedom that only tootling along in our motorhome can give us. :->

 

I can totally understand people asking vague questions about where to go as it then gives others the freedom to respond as they see fit rather than the questions being quite 'rigid' and therefore restricting the replies which, to me, would be much worse! :$

 

... anyone for Norway ???? (lol)

[colin]

I'm not sure if I agree or not with your post Brian. For one thing you seem to assume people asking have not already done some planning but are asking like minded people driving similier vehicles for thier advice.

Take for example our trip of couple of years ago to the south west of USA, we had a basic idea of the main reason to go, Vegas, Grand Canyon, and Mounument Valley, then a read of various guide books fleshed it out a bit adding Zion and route 66 etc, but we find guide books to be of limited help, sure they list the must see and maybe some little gems but they are usualy short on facts about motorhoming and they seem allways to be writen from a different view point than we are interested in.

A chat with a friend who had motorcamped throu the area with his model T was proboly just as informative, if not more so and some of the things we did and visited will never be in any guide book but where absolutly fascinating to us.

I don't usualy like asking or indeed answering about such things on here (for some reason) but sometimes I will, if only to guide people away from some crap campsite or to somewhere not usualy mentioned in a guide.

[Mel B]

The problem with guide books etc is that they can't include everything, only what the writer/compiler thinks is interesting/worth seeing etc, often they are aimed at the 'hotel' type traveller, rather than the 'roamer'. We use AA guides which can be very informative, however, some of the places they say are great and 'must visits' aren't worth the fuel to go, and some other places which they say are mediocre are absolutely marvelous! The vast majority of the great stuff we have seen has been discovered accidentally as it doesn't appear in any guides. One thing that IS a great help though is a map which has lots of places of interest marked on it, these give you ideas of what to go and see the types of things in an area (eg caves ... the stalactite/stalagmite type not wine! :D ).

[Brian Kirby]

Well, I appreciate all the replies - and not having been shredded for asking. :-) I think I may have overstated my case a bit. Yes I plan, and yes I tend to use (particularly Rough) guides - though more often the Michelin Green guides for France - to assist that planning, but the plan is not a rigid straight-jacket, and can be abandoned/varied at any point/time. Sometimes it is, sometimes it works well enough. Sometimes the plan is made as we go, more often before we leave.

 

But then, from your answers, you mostly do similar "high level" planning as well. You seem to select an area, or some point of interest (those nature reserves, for example), so you at least know whether to turn left or right out of Calais! :-) That church was from a Rough, it was empty when we arrived, (except for the very nice lady who allowed me to take photos when I satisfied her that the flash wouldn't be used), and someone else turned up as we were leaving. So, not my definition of touristy. For touristy, try visiting Venice, for example. But, take just a few steps away from the marked trail from Piazzale Roma to Piazza San Marco and you can wander free as a bird. Squares, canals, bridges, singing canaries, all to yourself in almost perfect silence. Magic! So, although Venice may be touristy, I can't resist it, and wouldn't miss it out because of the Crowds, tedious though they can be.

 

Sometimes we find things by accident, but then most of what we visit has been built, so the builder had to know it was there, the client knew it was to be there, and most of the locality would also have known when it was there. So, a guide book that tells me it is there, just passes on that knowledge. I'm not that concerned about making original discoveries, just about seeing with my own eyes. But that wasn't really my point.

 

I think Colin may be nearest the truth, when he suggests those who ask the really "blank" questions may already have worked out their loose plans, and just be trawling for extra ideas. Even so, I have responded to several such posts by asking what interested the poster, to try to give a more or less tuned answer, and got nothing back. So seemingly even that doesn't fit all cases.

 

So maybe it is all just "in the mind". Those who see planning as restrictive make "virtual" plans, that I would call a plan, but they choose not to, so that they don't feel restricted. In truth, I feel no restriction, because the plan is mine, and I can depart from it at will. I think I'm more like a man who successfully executed a highly elaborate plan to escape from Broadmoor (this is actually true, I was there on the same day, and it caused total chaos :-)), but was eventually discovered in the visitors canteen just outside. He was asked why, after all his efforts, he had not made good his escape. Oh, he said, he just wanted to prove he could get out if he wanted to. Now he'd proved that, he didn't feel himself to be a prisoner any more. Verily, we are all different! Hope you've all enjoyed the answers as much as I have.

[Clive]

My preference is for short answers!!

 

We only ever book the ferry.

We use a Michelin map.

Sat Nav is for people who don,t want to know where they are going! (OK I have one for when the wife throws a strop)

 

N01 choice for motorhome holiday is Australia, but there are some significant logistical reasons we don,t do this very often. Just the once so far.

 

No 2 choice is France as it has all the space (like Germany), the climate (like Germany) and a laid back attitude to life in general (unlike Germany).

 

Would I buy a French car -- er NO. Would I buy a German car - er YES

 

Choices.

 

We are all different, long may it continue.

 

C.

 

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-07-29 11:49 PM

I think I'm more like a man who successfully executed a highly elaborate plan to escape from Broadmoor (this is actually true, I was there on the same day, and it caused total chaos :-).

 

......I think your recall may be imminent! ;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

I'm thinking of going somewhere.......should I turn left or right? :-S