over 3500kg issues

[Way2Go]

Hello,

 

We currently have a 3500kg motorhome and are considering changing it. We're off tomorrow to scout a few dealers and have just fallen in love with one which is 4250kg.

 

I know that the 3500kg is a ceiling for several issues but I'm not sure off the implications of going over this weight.

 

Do you have to take another test at 70? Do you have to drive slower (seem to remember someone posting lower speeds?) . . . . . what else?

 

Can anyone help out please?

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

W2G

[Derek Uzzell]

In the UK, to legally drive a motorhome with a maximum overall weight from 3501kg to 7500kg requires a C1 driving licence entitlement. At age 70 the C1 entitlement will be lost unless you proactively ask to renew it. Renewal involves providing a medical examiner's report as descibed here:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/NeedANewOrUpdatedLicence/DG_4022086

 

Developing certain medical conditions (eg. diabetes) can also result in a driver's C1 entitlement being revoked, reducing his/her entitlement to a vehicle 3500kg weight-maximum.

 

Motorhomes over 3500kg overall weight currently fall into the Private HGV VED Tax Class 10, which is cheaper than the up-to-3500kg VED Tax Class 11 (at present £165 annually for TC 10, as opposed to £220 for TC 11).

 

It's likely that any motorhome with a 4250kg maximum overall weight will exceed the UK's 3050kg unladen weight threshold and, consequently, be subject to reduced speed limits in the UK. (See MMM September 2012, page 249) Outside the UK speed limits normally reduce for vehicles with a maximum overall weight over 3500kg, while road-toll charges usually increase for over-3500kg vehicles.

 

Most UK motorcaravanners with a C1 driving licence entitlement have acquired this by passing a 'car' driving test prior to January 1, 1997. After that date the car driving test only covered vehicles up to 3500kg weight. As time passes less and less of the people that make up the motorcaravanning community will have a C1 entitlement and, as gaining the entitlement requires a separate (and far from cheap) test, one might reasonably expect motorhomes with an over-3500kg weight to become increasingly unattractive to buyers. Something to bear in mind, perhaps, if you planned to keep the 4250kg motorhome for a long time.

[Robinhood]

Further to (and in some cases duplicating, Derek's reply.

 

Driving Licence

 

To drive above 3500kg you need a "C1" licence.

 

This can be obtained by passing the appropriate test. or (as is likley in your case) you may have

"grandfather rights" to this category, having passed a standard car driving test before 1997.

 

The category is automatically forfeited at 70, unless you specifically ask to retain it and provide a (chargeable) medical certificate. The medical test then has to be repaeated at regular intervals to retain the category.

 

Certain restrictions may also apply due to medical conditions such as diabetes.

 

Speed Limits

 

In the UK these are based (for a motorcaravan) on unladen weight (the break point being 3050kg). Most motorcaravans with a GVW of 3500kg creep in below that limit, and are subject to the same limits as cars - the van you are looking at will most likely be above, and be subject to lower speed limits.

 

Abroad, the break point is usually 3500kg GVW, and as a result you will be limited to lower speeds (80kmh on many motorways, for instance).

 

Tolls

 

there is a growing tendency for EU countries to impose higher tolls, (and possibly electronic tolling) on vehicles above 3500kg GVW. Austria and Slovenia are good examples. It can be considerably more expensive and/or more awkward to use toll roads in these circumstances.

 

Breakdown Recovery

 

care needs to be taken over the Ts&Cs of any recovery arrangements taken out, as they may carry restrictions on size and/or weight.

[Way2Go]

Many thanks for the quick feedback.

 

One of the motorhomes we're looking at is a Bessacarr E572 and has the following details:-

 

Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass (A) 4250kg

Mass in Running Order (B) 3335kg

Maximum User Payload (A-B) 915kg

 

Have I read this correctly and does your comments still stand?

 

W2G

[Robinhood]

Way2Go - 2012-08-24 7:16 PM

 

Many thanks for the quick feedback.

 

One of the motorhomes we're looking at is a Bessacarr E572 and has the following details:-

 

Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass (A) 4250kg

Mass in Running Order (B) 3335kg

Maximum User Payload (A-B) 915kg

 

Have I read this correctly and does your comments still stand?

 

W2G

 

The definition of "unladen weight", which governs the speed limits in the UK, appears to be fairly "hazy" (there appear to be some definitions quoted which have a bit more weight to them than others. if you'll pardon the pun). In essence, however, it will be the weight of the van absolutely empty (and no fuel, no tools, no driver, etc.)

 

Your quoted Mass in Running Order will (most likely) include gas, full fresh water, 75kg allowance for the driver, and almost full fuel. As a result, I suspect you will be close to the threshold on unladen weight, but without weighing you won't know, and my money would be on it being heavier than 3050kg - and I wouldn't want to rely on proving otherwise to fight a speeding prosecution.

 

As far as all the other items quoted, these apply to over 3500kg GVW (or Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass using the Swift terminology) so yes, the comments will apply.

[Brian Kirby]

You have read correctly, but unladen weight is not the same a mass in running order. You'll need to check what the MIRO definition is, but unladen weight means devoid of all loose equipment including jack and toolkit and, AFAIK, spare wheel. Empty fuel tank, but lubricants and coolant present.

 

This is technically a bit difficult to achieve, but if you get to a weighbridge and get a certificate showing less than 3,050kg for your vehicle it will be a bit academic whether the fuel tank was actually dry or not, since less fuel could only result in a lighter van!

 

There have been various cases of ill informed police officers "pulling" the owners of motorhomes with unladen weights below 3,050kg for excess speed. Some have needed quite a bit of convincing that their zeal was misapplied! As above, once abroad, over 3,500kg MAM is what will determine the applicable limit. If borderline, it may be prudent to treat the van as subject to the lower limits. However, in truth, at 3,335kg MIRO, I doubt stripping it to the bare essentials would bring it below 3,050kg.

[Mel B]

Just to add to the above regarding breakdown/recovery - for European use you may find that you are not entitled to such thinks as a hire car, hotel accommodation etc, as you fall into the 'commercial' recovery category which doesn't give you these niceties.

 

I went through this a couple or so years ago when we were thinking of uprating our then Rimor Sailor 645TC but instead changed it for our Chausson Flash 04. If you have a search of the forum you should find quite a bit of stuff about heavier motorhomes and the implications.

[Way2Go]

Many thanks for all the contributions - it's certainly given us something to think about and to do some more reading. I appreciate you all taking the time to post a reply.

 

Kind regards

 

W2G

[tonyishuk]

Are there any insurance and recovery implications in going over 3.5 tons ?

 

Rgds

[Robinhood]

tonyishuk - 2012-08-25 7:26 PM

 

Are there any insurance and recovery implications in going over 3.5 tons ?

 

Rgds

 

i) possibly, depending on vehicle and insurer, but both my vehicles which were above 3850kg were insured without visibility of the weight (and at no noticeable premium above previous 'vans)

 

ii) possibly (as I highlighted in my first reply above). Ts&Cs of the various providers should be checked carefully (and you can usually find a cost-effective method of covering).

[Retread24800]

In France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited. Furthermore you will need to abide by the speed limits for HGV's though I understand UK Vehicles do not need to have the additional signs on the back.

[Mel B]

Some info on these few previous threads which may be of interest, there are quite a few more out there if you feel like having a shuftie!!!

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19179&posts=15

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18596&posts=7

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19119&posts=9

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21571&posts=20

[Way2Go]

Thanks again for all the additional feedback.

 

The Bessacarr mentioned was one of five on our shortlist (and the only one over 3500kg). We spend a few hours at our chosen dealer yesterday and decided on the gorgeous 2013 Adria CORAL S 670 SLT which is still 3500kg.

 

We'll still be going to the NEC in October but it will now be more relaxed as we have already ordered our new motorhome for a Spring 2013 delivery.

 

Our dealer confirmed the views expressed in this thread and in the end it was a no-brainer.

 

Thank you again for all your advice, it was extremely helpful.

 

W2G

[Derek Uzzell]

Retread24800 - 2012-08-25 9:26 PM

 

In France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited. Furthermore you will need to abide by the speed limits for HGV's though I understand UK Vehicles do not need to have the additional signs on the back.

 

As you say, it does not appear to be a French legal requirement for 'speed-stickers' to be attached to appropriate non-French-registered vehicles that will be driven in France (although there's plenty of advice on UK websites that the French police may not be aware of this, so fitting the stickers may be a good idea).

 

It will be appreciated from this Wikipedia entry

 

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitesse_maximale_autorisée_par_type_de_véhicule_en_France

 

that the French 'speed sticker' rules apply to more than just a vehicle's PTAC (Poids Total Autorisé en Charge). Although any (French registered) motorhome with a PTAC over 3500kg should have 90kmh/80kmh stickers attached to it, stickers are also necessary for a vehicle with a PTAC up-to-3500kg towing something, if the combined PTRA (Poids Total Roulant Autorisé) exceeds 3500kg. This means that many French-registered heavy car/caravan 'outfits', and most French-registered motorhomes towing a trailer or car may need speed-stickers to be legal.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Retread24800 - 2012-08-25 9:26 PM

 

In France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited. Furthermore you will need to abide by the speed limits for HGV's though I understand UK Vehicles do not need to have the additional signs on the back.

Though I understand that some town centre limits on vehicle weight are applicable only to commercial vehicles, and do not apply to motorhomes. Ours is not over 3,500kg, so I haven't checked what these signs look like, as opposed to the normal highway weight restriction signs. Do you know how they differ?

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 12:28 PM

 

Retread24800 - 2012-08-25 9:26 PM

 

In France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited. Furthermore you will need to abide by the speed limits for HGV's though I understand UK Vehicles do not need to have the additional signs on the back.

Though I understand that some town centre limits on vehicle weight are applicable only to commercial vehicles, and do not apply to motorhomes. Ours is not over 3,500kg, so I haven't checked what these signs look like, as opposed to the normal highway weight restriction signs. Do you know how they differ?

 

Over the years, and since the imposition of Go-Boxes on vehicles over 3.5t for motorway use in Austria, there has been quite a bit of discussion of this. (mainly because many of the motorway-avoidance routes started to sprout 3.5t limit signs).

 

So, for Austria at least (though the same certainly applies in some other countries), if a 3.5t (or other) limit sign is accompanied by the pictogram of a lorry, then it does not apply to motorhomes (effectively as "passenger carrying" vehicles). A weight limit sign not accompanied by such a pictogram is "absolute". (and on one of the forums, though it may be a German one, a clarification from the Austrian ministry endorsed that interpretation).

 

I can find a few descriptions of road signs for a number of European countries (Estonia for example) that clearly follow that particular interpretation - so I suspect France may be similar (and for that matter, from what I can glean, also the UK!).

 

....and the definitive position for France is described in the following:

 

http://www.equipementsdelaroute.equipement.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Arrete1967_2annexe_vc20120402_cle03791b.pdf

[Pete-B]

Sorry to steal your thunder on this but when I turned seventy I forfeited my C1 so I drive a 3500 Kg van which has a towbar, am I allowed to tow a small car with A frame on my present license?

[Robinhood]

Pete-B - 2012-08-26 2:50 PM

 

Sorry to steal your thunder on this but when I turned seventy I forfeited my C1 so I drive a 3500 Kg van which has a towbar, am I allowed to tow a small car with A frame on my present license?

 

...having relinquished your "grandfather rights", I believe you will be covered by the "Category B" rules, outlined here:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

 

....which (given the weight of the motorcaravan) effectively means you will be limited to towing a trailer (or car on A frame) up to 750kgs MAM.

 

I'm deliberately sidestepping any questions around the use of an A frame. B-)

[Retread24800]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 1:28 PM

Retread24800 - 2012-08-25 9:26 PMIn France many towns and villages ban all vehicles over 3.5T MGW (PTAC) so you will be barred from some of the most picturesque areas, some of the byways are also similarly limited. Furthermore you will need to abide by the speed limits for HGV's though I understand UK Vehicles do not need to have the additional signs on the back.

Though I understand that some town centre limits on vehicle weight are applicable only to commercial vehicles, and do not apply to motorhomes. Ours is not over 3,500kg, so I haven't checked what these signs look like, as opposed to the normal highway weight restriction signs. Do you know how they differ?

 

The normal highway weight restriction applicable to all vehicles is a red circle surrounding a white ground with a max weight (say 3.5t) thereon. There might be a small white panel under it showing a bus or maybe 'Sauf riverain / livraison' (except residents / deliveries) allowing exceptions.

If there is an image of a black lorry, on a similar red circle, then this forbids all goods vehicles, there will often be a subsidiary panel showing a weight, ie 3.5t, thus only goods vehicles with a PTAC less than the panel weight can use that route.

Heavier 'vans should also note the axle load limitations sign, easy really, an axle with a max load say 2t. and width/height signs.......... me under 2.3m wide and 3m high.

 

Personally I tend to avoid areas with a ban on lorries/goods vehicles unless I need to gain access to a spot within that zone, saves a lot of embarrassment like when I won't fit under a balcony as in Italy once :-)

 

[Brian Kirby]

Thank you Robin and Roger. Curiosity satisfied. :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Pete-B - 2012-08-26 2:50 PM

 

Sorry to steal your thunder on this but when I turned seventy I forfeited my C1 so I drive a 3500 Kg van which has a towbar, am I allowed to tow a small car with A frame on my present license?

I'll go a bit further than Robin and simply say no.

 

He is quite correct that the limit for you on your present licence is a trailer of no more than 750kg MAM. However, I don't think there is a car on the market that has an MAM (maximum allowable mass) as low as 750kg. What will count outside the UK will not be the actual weight of the car as towed, it will be the plated maximum permissible weight of the car. In UK, you could take the weight of the car as towed, and you could even lighten it further by removing heavy items (tools, spare wheel etc) to reduce its mass to the absolute minimum. However, outside UK it is the plated weight that counts.

 

You could consider a trailer, but you would then have to add the self-weight of the trailer to the actual weight of the car and, although there are baggage trailers plated at 750kg MAM (which is the plated MAM you would need for legality), I don't think any car transport trailers are made with such a low MAM, and I seriously doubt you could reduce the weight of any regular production car sufficiently to be within the payload limit of such a trailer. So, legally and theoretically, all is possible, but I think you will simply be defeated by the practicalities.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 7:46 PM

 

 

I'll go a bit further than Robin and simply say no.

 

 

.....never say never Brian. ;-)

 

.....whilst we could split hairs over whether this is really a car (or a quadricycle), and maybe it doesn't need an A-frame - I suspect one could "legally" (at least in weight terms), tow one of these:

 

http://www.qpod.co.uk/qpod-sport.php

 

....whether one would want to or not is an entirely different matter. (though some days.........) :-D

[Basil]

Robinhood - 2012-08-26 7:58 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 7:46 PM

 

 

I'll go a bit further than Robin and simply say no.

 

 

.....never say never Brian. ;-)

 

.....whilst we could split hairs over whether this is really a car (or a quadricycle), and maybe it doesn't need an A-frame - I suspect one could "legally" (at least in weight terms), tow one of these:

 

http://www.qpod.co.uk/qpod-sport.php

 

....whether one would want to or not is an entirely different matter. (though some days.........) :-D

 

But that is illegal to tow anyway, even in the UK, as admitted to me by the sales people when I enquired about a new one as it has brakes on the rear wheels that do not operate when being towed, therefore illegal under construction and use regs.

 

 

Bas

[Robinhood]

Basil - 2012-08-26 8:26 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-08-26 7:58 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 7:46 PM

 

 

I'll go a bit further than Robin and simply say no.

 

 

.....never say never Brian. ;-)

 

.....whilst we could split hairs over whether this is really a car (or a quadricycle), and maybe it doesn't need an A-frame - I suspect one could "legally" (at least in weight terms), tow one of these:

 

http://www.qpod.co.uk/qpod-sport.php

 

....whether one would want to or not is an entirely different matter. (though some days.........) :-D

 

But that is illegal to tow anyway, even in the UK, as admitted to me by the sales people when I enquired about a new one as it has brakes on the rear wheels that do not operate when being towed, therefore illegal under construction and use regs.

 

 

Bas

 

.....it would depend how you towed it (A-frame anyone?, or even a 750kg MAM quad bike trailer :-S)

 

....but it was also why I was pretty careful how I worded my (humorous) response to Brian. ;-)

[Mel B]

Basil - 2012-08-26 8:26 PM

 

Robinhood - 2012-08-26 7:58 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2012-08-26 7:46 PM

 

 

I'll go a bit further than Robin and simply say no.

 

 

.....never say never Brian. ;-)

 

.....whilst we could split hairs over whether this is really a car (or a quadricycle), and maybe it doesn't need an A-frame - I suspect one could "legally" (at least in weight terms), tow one of these:

 

http://www.qpod.co.uk/qpod-sport.php

 

....whether one would want to or not is an entirely different matter. (though some days.........) :-D

 

But that is illegal to tow anyway, even in the UK, as admitted to me by the sales people when I enquired about a new one as it has brakes on the rear wheels that do not operate when being towed, therefore illegal under construction and use regs.

 

 

Bas

 

Bas - does that also apply to when it is being towed using the 'bar' that they make specially for it which raises the front wheels off the road, making it more 'trailer-like'?