Mike88 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Again I say that all Sevel Panel Vans including the Adria Twin have a maximum vertical load that is stipulated in the Fiat handbook of I believe 85kgs. I am unsure of whether the Pug or Citroen versions have such a weight limitation mentioned in their respective handbooks but as the chassis are the same that limit would also apply. While a rack might be rated at 150kgs the vehicle is not and I can't see how such a weight as a 125 kg scooter plus the weight of the towbar and rack can be legally carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 I don't have a Fiat handbook to hand, but maybe the vertical load on a towbar would be restricted is if the tow bar or it's mountings are not man enough for a greater load? Placing that same load - or greater - inside the back doors exerts almost as much weight in the rear axle - and removes it from the front axle - as a load suspended some 60 cms behind the van? So with an adequately engineered tow bar and fittings as long as you remain within the MAM / GVW I don't really see the problem in spite of what Fiat may say? I do of course invite engineering reasons why my assumptions are incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Good evening all, First Judge, I have not weighed the van with every thing on but I reckoned that 200 kgs is plenty for what is really about 160kgs . The scooter weighs 108 kgs. A good source of information is twist and go magazine for scooters. As a former hgv driver carrying stone I have a lot of experience of weght distribution , over loading etc. I have been toying with the idea of taking off the doors fixing 2 steel bars through the floor to the chassis and then building a new rear door which could be lighter in weight. the bars would then form a scooter rack or other with huge carrying capacity on a 4 ton chassis. norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 It is pointless trying to guess the weight of any van if for no other reason than you cannot ever be sure the van weighs what the maker says it weighs before you put anything in it - apart from which unless you weight absolutely everything you add it can only ever be a guess. A weighbridge costs from nowt to a tenner so, with respect, why not find out for definite and talk from knowledge rather than hope? How to find a weighbridge near you - yellow pages - Google - or - http://chrishodgetrucks.co.uk/useful-info/weighbridges.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Tracker - 2012-10-12 8:07 PM I don't have a Fiat handbook to hand, but maybe the vertical load on a towbar would be restricted is if the tow bar or it's mountings are not man enough for a greater load? Placing that same load - or greater - inside the back doors exerts almost as much weight in the rear axle - and removes it from the front axle - as a load suspended some 60 cms behind the van? So with an adequately engineered tow bar and fittings as long as you remain within the MAM / GVW I don't really see the problem in spite of what Fiat may say? I do of course invite engineering reasons why my assumptions are incorrect? You are possibly correct but for the record below are extracts from my correspondence with Witter and Swift.relating to my Swift Mondial: The Maximum Permissible Rear Axle loading is 2000kg, Maximum Front Axle loading is 1850kg and the GVW (MTPLM) is 3500kg. The front axle load in all conditions must be between 40% and 70% of the total weight to ensure adequate road holding and the GVW must not be exceeded. It is unlikely that your vehicle is suitable to carry the kind of loads contemplated. Attention was also drawn to the EC Type Approval Regulations. Towbars are designed, tested and manufactured to tow at the maximum capability of the vehicle to which it is designed to fit. It is the vehicle that is the limiting factor with regard to nose load. Our records and the towbar type approval label indicate that the guideline maximum nose load for the 2010 Fiat Ducato Van is 80kg, the actual nose load for your vehicle will be printed in your vehicle’s handbook. It is quite likely that your vehicle will not be able to accommodate a 140kg nose load. (That is the weight of the scooter, towbar and rack.)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 That's interesting and maybe this all relates to the effects of a towed nose weight rather than a fixed extension to the van? I suspect that this also revolves around axle weights and the leverage effect of a rear end load reducing the front axle weight to such a degree that handing, traction and safety are affected? I still can't see anything wrong with a scooter rack as long as all the requirements for maximum GVW and maximum and minimum axle weights are observed? In the light of what Mike has advised I also suspect that there are plenty of vans that do not comply being obliviously driven around all over Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Tracker - 2012-10-13 7:56 AM That's interesting and maybe this all relates to the effects of a towed nose weight rather than a fixed extension to the van? I suspect that this also revolves around axle weights and the leverage effect of a rear end load reducing the front axle weight to such a degree that handing, traction and safety are affected? I still can't see anything wrong with a scooter rack as long as all the requirements for maximum GVW and maximum and minimum axle weights are observed? In the light of what Mike has advised I also suspect that there are plenty of vans that do not comply being obliviously driven around all over Europe? Undoubtedly there are plenty of vans running around that do not comply with the requirements. I In relation to your comment about seeing nothing wrong with scooter racks being fitted as long as all the GVW and maximum and minimum weights are met Swift told me this: "Firstly the majority of base vehicles used for conversions are National Type Approved and some are now European approved. Both approvals require the fitting of 94/20/EC approved towbars. This is an extract from the Ducato handbook:- "The towing device must meet current regulations with reference to 94/20/EC Directive and subsequent amendments. For any version the towing device used must match the towable weight of the vehicle on which it is to be installed". Now I accept that this is a greyish area as a rack is not a towing device but it seems to me that if a vehicle is "Type Approved" any modification to the chassis could fall foul of the requirements as clearly it is unlikely (as far as I know) that any such modification would be "Type Approved". Where there is no doubt is that if a towbar is to be fitted that must be "Type Approved" even if it not used for towing because the Directive refers to the device irrespective of what it is used for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 .......but, in the previous discussion that took place around this subject, I highlighted the fact that the current Westfalia towbar for the X250 panel van is type-approved, at a noseweight of 150kg. (the TA certificate - interestingly in Italian - is readily viewable on the Westfalia site). In addition, there are other manufacturer's type approved bars for the X250, with noseweights between 80 and 150kg (Towsure being another 150kg example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Mike I could be wrong here but although your van may be type approved I read somewhere that type approval for extras fitted only applied to van built from a much later date, sometime in 2012 I think. Cannot be bothered to check at the moment but am pretty sure about this so do not think you will require a type approved towbar. In any case their are at least two type approved towbars now that exceed 150kg. My pvc which is Peugeot based does not give any noseweight for the rear chassis, unlike my last Fiat, which I ignored anyway, as I assume chassis are the same, bit strange. As pvc is going anyway and have pretty much decided on the ezeytow not of any concern. You have been going on about a scooter for ages, do not understand why you do not go down the ezytow route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-10-13 9:06 AM .......but, in the previous discussion that took place around this subject, I highlighted the fact that the current Westfalia towbar for the X250 panel van is type-approved, at a noseweight of 150kg. (the TA certificate - interestingly in Italian - is readily viewable on the Westfalia site). In addition, there are other manufacturer's type approved bars for the X250, with noseweights between 80 and 150kg (Towsure being another 150kg example). True. But I was replying to Tracker's post relating to towbars requiring chassis modifications on panel vans and the Adria Twin posts. I was merely drawing attention to the technical correspondence with Swift and Witter relating to my similar vehicle. I am no expert but feel I have to accept the information I have been given In simple terms it seems to me that If a towbar is "Type Approved" at 150kgs the vehicle still needs to be able to cope with the weight doesn't it unless there are additional type approved chassis mountings on this Westfalia towbar or there is another way around the problem? Can anybody explain how a 150kg rated towbar can support a 150kg weight (scooter, towbar and rack) on a vehicle that is limited to a vertical load of 80kgs? Swift and Witter tell me that I can't carry weight in excess of vehicle's ability to carry it but perhaps things have moved forward since then and Westfalia may have provided the answer. Further research is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Rupert said......................................."You have been going on about a scooter for ages, do not understand why you do not go down the ezytow route......." I know. But I gave up caravanning 9 years ago to avoid towing so do not want to go there even though I think the EZETOW is an excellent bit of kit. If I had to tow I would revert to a caravan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Mike88 - 2012-10-13 9:30 AM Rupert said......................................."You have been going on about a scooter for ages, do not understand why you do not go down the ezytow route......." I know. But I gave up caravanning 9 years ago to avoid towing so do not want to go there even though I think the EZETOW is an excellent bit of kit. If I had to tow I would revert to a caravan. The ezetow is nothing like towing a caravan or trailor, which I totally agree with you about. It is in effect a rack with wheels but will add about 50cm in length over a normal rack. Small price to pay i reckon to be able to carry a bike. I would prefer to continue to use a normal rack which only adds about 60 cm to length of van, at least my last one did, but will stop me going to ezetow which adds around a mtr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 if you buy the right van with the right capacity you can just have a rack...surely a better idea then these jockey wheel jobies...Personally I would go for the German electric lift as its on 35Kg like I said earlier, I followed one of these jockey wheel carriers on back of a UK camper in Spain last year while out cycling, it was painful to watch him negotiate speed bumps..... wouldn't touch one with a barge pole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 maggyd - 2012-09-27 10:12 PM Well Im glad Ive read all this as I always thought my O.H was being overcautious when he tells me " If we are stopped and weighed its all your clothes that are being left at the side of the road" :$ we never travel with more than maybe a 1/4 tank of water on board, I know its a waste dumping fresh water but we never stay at places we cant fill up with enough to last us while we are there, also he isnt keen on me taking lots of tinned stuff :-S just in case we need it !! we have never been caught out without enough to make a meal and have enough in the fridge for sandwich,s and loads of salad. And this because the solar panel, satellite watsits bike rack on tow bar chairs etc; and all the other necessary equipment must have us very near if not over the limit he is allowed on his license !! now I have another two years before I come of age !! but it doesnt really matter does it if we are over the plated allowance. Never mind like Mel we have survived with this van now the next one !! I wonder?? :-D Hi Maggy, don't know if you've read my posting about the Autocruise payload reduction for 2013 models, but your van will still have a very healthy payload so you should be able to carry a FULL tank of water if you want to!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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