Asda £70 parking charge notice - beware!

[Rayjsj]

Here was me thinking it was someone who had 'cloned' your numberplates and you were in France ! A differant 'kettle of fish' altogether. Suggest you 'Strongarm' whoever was driving YOUR vehicle to pay the fine.... or else. whats all the fuss about ?? Ray

[jb6981]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 6:40 PM

 

Iain Strachan - 2012-10-13 5:51 PM

 

I really cant believe that this is still rumbling on! I thought that this was a motorhome forum.

Cheers iain

 

It is a relevant topic for a motorhome forum because people on trips in motorhomes, especially on extended trips, often park in supermarket car parks when they need to stock up on food, etc.

 

This topic warns them about what can befall them if they do not read the signs in said car parks.

 

To prove to you that motorhomes use supermarket car parks, there are 12 on this one [you can tell it is a supermarket because of the trolley park]:

 

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p261/jb6981/agde1.jpg

[Dave225]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 7:55 PM

 

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 6:40 PM

 

Iain Strachan - 2012-10-13 5:51 PM

 

I really cant believe that this is still rumbling on! I thought that this was a motorhome forum.

Cheers iain

 

It is a relevant topic for a motorhome forum because people on trips in motorhomes, especially on extended trips, often park in supermarket car parks when they need to stock up on food, etc.

 

This topic warns them about what can befall them if they do not read the signs in said car parks.

 

To prove to you that motorhomes use supermarket car parks, there are 12 on this one [you can tell it is a supermarket because of the trolley park]:

 

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p261/jb6981/agde1.jpg

 

I do not think the signs referred to motorhomes but to all vehicles. As to the OP's comments clarifying his situation I would agree with the comment that he should get whoever was driving to cough up. It may have been an innocent error but the longer he allows it to drag on, the more serious the possible consequences could be, to his credit rating etc. Easy to get, difficult to remove. Of course if he did not know who was driving then possibly advising the Police it was stolen is the answer.

[Keith T]

Would it be fair to suggest the photo is taken at a French Hypermarket (or a Continetnal one anyway)....we certainly have never been to a UK one where there is this much space for or talen by motorhomes?

 

As far as the OP is concerned, it does seem as though the simplest resolution is simply to provide the name and address of the actual person who was dirving, and I suspect there could be further repercusssions if you don't, as I imagine the motorhome must have been driven with the authority of the owner?

[antony1969]

Pay the fine , put it down to experience , move on and forget it . If the signs were there , tough . I parked in a disabled space at B and Q to make it easier to return a heavy item I was returning , in there maximum 5 minutes but returned to a ticket . Hands up it was my fault , signs there should of known better and my wallet was made even lighter .

Where were the pics taken ? not in blighty am sure .

[jb6981]

Mel B - 2012-10-13 7:11 PM

 

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 6:53 PM

 

Dave225 - 2012-10-13 4:35 PM

 

I have to ask, as it is not absolutely clear, was the vehicle in question with you in France? If so then I assume you have a ferry booking showing the registration of when you left and returned. May I suggest you send these with your complaint direct to ASDA, registered if possible, and see what happens. As many have said ASDA is a commercial business and will try in most cases to resolve disputes, even if they are not entirely to blame. If the DVLA have given out an incorrect number then you are not liable, but if your vehicle was there, even if you were not driving it, then things are not so clear cut.

 

As for the 'Mrs Davies' story again if she had gone to customer services on arrival and explained I am sure that she would have received every consideration. Unfortunately many people make blind assumptions and yes, Companies do subcontract things such as parking monitoring to possibly less than scrupulous Companies, but usually going direct to the supermarket works.

 

1) The vehicle in question was in England driven by someone else.

SO YOU KNOW WHO USED YOUR VEHICLE AND ARE NOT THEREFORE SAYING THAT THE OVERSTAY DIDN'T HAPPEN, YOU JUST WON'T LET THEM KNOW WHO IT WAS.

 

2) I have contacted Asda, they have not replied.

NOT GOOD RELATIONS BUT THEN AGAIN I SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ACTUALLY 'SAID' TO THEM AND IF THEY ARE CHECKING THINGS OUT.

 

3) Quote "but if your vehicle was there, even if you were not driving it, then things are not so clear cut." as the alleged overstay took place before 01/10/2012 the driver is the person they need to pursue not myself, the registered keeper.

IN WHICH CASE YOU ARE 'ABETTING' THE PERPETRATOR BY NOT PROVIDING THE INFORMATION TO THEM.

 

4) I have written to Town and City Parking informing them that I owe them nothing and will pay them nothing. They have not replied either.

I REFER TO YOU MY COMMENT UNDER 2) ABOVE.

 

So, this has really NOTHING to do with whether the policy is right/wrong, it is simply that you are REFUSING to give the information about the actual DRIVER of the car who committed the offence whilst you were abroad. Am I right???? :-S

 

You say "it is simply that you are REFUSING to give the information about the actual DRIVER of the car who committed the offence whilst you were abroad".

 

No, no one has asked who the driver was. Town and City Parking wrongly assumed that I was the driver. I wrote and told them I was not the driver. They have not replied to ask who the driver was. It has nothing to do with me.

 

You use the term "committed the offence", it is not an offence it is an overstay on a free car park, the parking charge notice is merely an invoice from a private company. It is up to them to identify the driver. If they knew who the driver was there is nothing they could so if he/she ignored their threatening letters.

 

I suggest you go to this site for information on the subject of private parking:

 

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

 

This is what I have said on the subject in this forum.[i have copied and pasted my comments];

 

"£70.00 demanded for overstaying the one and a half hour Asda supermarket parking limit by 26 minutes.

 

I was in France on the date of the alleged parking violation so I wrote back and said that I owed them nothing and would pay them nothing and that they must take the matter up with the driver of the vehicle on 31/07/2012.

 

Town & City Parking obtained my details from DVLA on the baseless assumption that the registered keeper must be the driver, DVLA released the details citing 'just cause' without any checks whatsoever on the validity of the request.

 

What would you think if you received threats and demands for something that had nothing to do with you?

 

Of course a business has the right to apply terms and conditions; so do you think it reasonable that someone is 'fined' £70.00 for a few minutes overstay?

 

Do you think it reasonable that Town and City Parking obtained my home address from DVLA, made the baseless assumption that I was the 'perpetrator', demanded £70.00, then threatened me with debt collectors and legal action?

 

I do not even shop at Asda and was in France. Do you think it unreasonable that I complain?

What would you think if you received threats and demands for something that had nothing to do with you?

 

Of course a business has the right to apply terms and conditions; so do you think it reasonable that someone is 'fined' £70.00 for a few minutes overstay?

 

Do you think it reasonable that Town and City Parking obtained my home address from DVLA, made the baseless assumption that I was the 'perpetrator', demanded £70.00, then threatened me with debt collectors and legal action?

 

I do not even shop at Asda and was in France. Do you think it unreasonable that I complain?

What would you think if you received threats and demands for something that had nothing to do with you?

 

1) I have no legal or moral obligation to divulge information about the driver. If they knew the driver's details they would threaten and harass him/her over what I regard as an extortionate, disproportionate and unwarranted demand for £70.

 

2) If they have CCTV evidence showing only the car registration number and not the driver that's their problem, they should have better systems in place to identify the 'perpetrator' if they wish to impose monetary penalties.

 

3) Why should I help them? I have absolutely nothing to do with this matter, I was not even in the country when the alleged parking overstay took place, why involve me and threaten legal action against myself?

 

4) I have written to them and told them that I will pay them nothing, I await their reply. The next move is theirs. If they persist I will simply tell them to issue a Letter Before Claim complying with the County Court pre Action Civil Procedure Protocol; then a County Court summons and I will see them in court." [End of quotes]

 

 

 

[jb6981]

Rayjsj - 2012-10-13 7:45 PM

 

Here was me thinking it was someone who had 'cloned' your numberplates and you were in France ! A differant 'kettle of fish' altogether. Suggest you 'Strongarm' whoever was driving YOUR vehicle to pay the fine.... or else. whats all the fuss about ?? Ray

 

Why did you think that? What I said was:

 

"I was in France on the date of the alleged parking violation so I wrote back and said that I owed them nothing and would pay them nothing and that they must take the matter up with the driver of the vehicle on 31/07/2012. "

 

You say "Suggest you 'Strongarm' whoever was driving YOUR vehicle to pay the fine".

 

Why? It is an invoice for an extortionate and excessive amount from a private company and absolutely nothing to do with me.

 

You emphasise "YOUR vehicle", again so what. I am not responsible for the actions of a driver in a vehicle registered to me (not necessarily the legal owner), if he/she killed someone whilst driving drunk would you feel that I was responsible for that as well?

 

You say " ...pay the fine". Again it is not a 'fine' private companies cannot fine anybody; it merely an unpaid invoice.

 

[jb6981]

Dave225 - 2012-10-13 8:06 PM

 

I do not think the signs referred to motorhomes but to all vehicles. As to the OP's comments clarifying his situation I would agree with the comment that he should get whoever was driving to cough up. It may have been an innocent error but the longer he allows it to drag on, the more serious the possible consequences could be, to his credit rating etc. Easy to get, difficult to remove. Of course if he did not know who was driving then possibly advising the Police it was stolen is the answer.

 

See the answers above; nothing to do with me.Your credit rating can only be affected if you are taken to court, and lose, for an alleged parking overstay, but first they have identify the driver.

[Mel B]

JB

 

I'm not the only one on this thread who thought you were 'saying' that the vehicle had NOT committed the 'offence' (or whatever you want to call it, as I'm not going to split hairs on this) as you were in France at the time. You therefore appeared to be implying that it was a fine based on a totally 'fictitious' event, however, from your postings today it now makes it clear that it probably DID happen.

 

I did read your previous postings and also know about fines and about private parking (I used to work at a University and parking regulations implementation was part of my job!).

 

I can understand your not wanting to 'help' the parking enforcement company to fine someone else, but the person who did this (and I assume from the way you have phrased some of your questions in this thread that they did) is the one who should be incurring your wrath, not Asda or the parking enforcement company.

 

Have you actually spoken with the person who used the vehicle, and has obviously incurred the wrath of the parking company, and given them an ear bashing for all this aggro? I certainly would!!! 8-)

 

You are quite within your rights to question whether the parking policy/enforcement penalties are over the top/unfair, however, that has nothing to do with the actual incident itself as you have said it wasn't you .... :-S

[jb6981]

Keith T - 2012-10-13 8:50 PM

 

Would it be fair to suggest the photo is taken at a French Hypermarket (or a Continetnal one anyway)....we certainly have never been to a UK one where there is this much space for or talen by motorhomes?

 

As far as the OP is concerned, it does seem as though the simplest resolution is simply to provide the name and address of the actual person who was dirving, and I suspect there could be further repercusssions if you don't, as I imagine the motorhome must have been driven with the authority of the owner?

 

Again it is up to them to identify the driver. Further repercussions, such as? I bear as much responsibility for this parking overstay as you do!

 

And who said it was a motorhome? I was in the motorhome in France. It was a car registered to me that overstayed the time limit in Asda (England).

[jb6981]

antony1969 - 2012-10-13 9:01 PM

 

Pay the fine , put it down to experience , move on and forget it . If the signs were there , tough . I parked in a disabled space at B and Q to make it easier to return a heavy item I was returning , in there maximum 5 minutes but returned to a ticket . Hands up it was my fault , signs there should of known better and my wallet was made even lighter .

Where were the pics taken ? not in blighty am sure .

 

Sorry but more fool you, a private company cannot issue fines.

 

Me pay the 'fine'? I bear as much as much responsibility for that parking invoice as you do!! Why don't you pay it for me?

[colin]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 10:07 PM

 

What would you think if you received threats and demands for something that had nothing to do with you?

 

3) Why should I help them? I have absolutely nothing to do with this matter, I was not even in the country when the alleged parking overstay took place, why involve me and threaten legal action against myself?

 

 

Due to the date that this took place I would have done nothing at all not even replied, they go away as it's not worthwhile persueing those who don't want to pay, but for you to make these comments is a bit rich, you know perfectly well who was driving and they (your son?) where doing it on your authority. As you well know the law has now changed and if it happened today you would be legally obliged to divulge the info and one of the reasons it changed was because so many people where saying "I wasn't driving, nothing to do with me"

[colin]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 10:43 PM

 

antony1969 - 2012-10-13 9:01 PM

 

Pay the fine , put it down to experience , move on and forget it . If the signs were there , tough . I parked in a disabled space at B and Q to make it easier to return a heavy item I was returning , in there maximum 5 minutes but returned to a ticket . Hands up it was my fault , signs there should of known better and my wallet was made even lighter .

Where were the pics taken ? not in blighty am sure .

 

Sorry but more fool you, a private company cannot issue fines.

 

Me pay the 'fine'? I bear as much as much responsibility for that parking invoice as you do!! Why don't you pay it for me?

 

When did antony give authority for some one the drive your car?

[jb6981]

colin - 2012-10-13 10:47 PM

 

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 10:07 PM

 

What would you think if you received threats and demands for something that had nothing to do with you?

 

3) Why should I help them? I have absolutely nothing to do with this matter, I was not even in the country when the alleged parking overstay took place, why involve me and threaten legal action against myself?

 

 

Due to the date that this took place I would have done nothing at all not even replied, they go away as it's not worthwhile persueing those who don't want to pay, but for you to make these comments is a bit rich, you know perfectly well who was driving and they (your son?) where doing it on your authority. As you well know the law has now changed and if it happened today you would be legally obliged to divulge the info and one of the reasons it changed was because so many people where saying "I wasn't driving, nothing to do with me"

 

I disagree the reason why the law has changed is to regulate the parking industry. As I stated earlier;

 

"My understanding of the new rules that came into force on 01/10/2012 is that any 'penalty' for breach of contract must be reasonable and not excessive. So how would Asda quantify the loss to their business caused by someone overstaying their time limit by 26 minutes plus the admin costs incurred by issuing a ticket? If it is a pay and display charging £1 an hour and you overstay by half an hour the loss to the business is .50 pence plus admin". That I think would put paid to demands for £70 for a few minutes overstay.

 

Yes the keeper must now divulge the name of the driver, it then absolves him/her of any claim. The parking company must then chase the driver. If the driver then refuses to play ball what then?

 

"Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss. This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken. For example, to cover the unpaid charges and the administrative costs associated with issuing the ticket to recover the charges. Charges may not be set at higher levels than necessary to recover business losses and the intention should not be to penalise the driver".

 

And where in any post have I admitted knowing who the driver was? The car has 4 named drivers or could have been driven by anyone who was insured to drive it.

 

 

[jb6981]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 10:40 PM

 

Keith T - 2012-10-13 8:50 PM

 

Would it be fair to suggest the photo is taken at a French Hypermarket (or a Continetnal one anyway)....we certainly have never been to a UK one where there is this much space for or talen by motorhomes?

 

France, Agde; Hyper U car park: no signs or restrictions.

[Mel B]

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 11:03 PM

 

And where in any post have I admitted knowing who the driver was? The car has 4 named drivers or could have been driven by anyone who was insured to drive it.

 

 

Sorry, are you seriously trying to tell us that you DO NOT know who was driving?????? It is one thing to not help, but I really do not believe that you don't know who was using YOUR car!!!! 8-)

[jb6981]

Mel B - 2012-10-13 11:31 PM

 

jb6981 - 2012-10-13 11:03 PM

 

And where in any post have I admitted knowing who the driver was? The car has 4 named drivers or could have been driven by anyone who was insured to drive it.

 

 

Sorry, are you seriously trying to tell us that you DO NOT know who was driving?????? It is one thing to not help, but I really do not believe that you don't know who was using YOUR car!!!! 8-)

 

I am a thousand miles away, the car (I am keeper not owner and I am keeper for other vehicles) and the keys are at the house, anyone can drive it. So someone overstayed 26 minutes in an Asda car park; so I should interrogate all the possible drivers?

 

It's like am I bothered! It's not as if someone got run over is it.

 

And what if some of the drivers had been to Asda and no one could remember who was driving on that date or were aware that they had overstayed. If I remember Richard and Judy (late of TV) got off on a motorway speeding charge because they could not remember which one of them was driving at the precise moment when they were accused of speeding, (presumably caught on camera).

 

I am not angry at the driver; I am angry at someone obtaining my address from DVLA and sending me a threatening letter demanding £70 or else debt collectors and legal action would follow.

[Iain Strachan]

Thanks for reminding me that I should read all the signs, if your unnamed and know it appears unknown driver of a car you know not which because your are the keeper of so many, had read the sign and not overstayed their welcome at ASDA, you would not have anything to post about. You were in your motorhome in France. Where I still am enjoying the free parking in super markets selling wonderful food, that want our custom.

Iain

PS still dont think its relavent on this forum!

[Sophie]

Just caught up and read through the thread. Not sure why.

Reminds me of Shakespeare's play:

 

-"Much ado about Nothing"

 

 

 

[Keith T]

Iain Strachan - 2012-10-14 7:35 PM

 

 

 

PS still dont think its relavent on this forum!

 

Certainly agree with this comment....it seems totally irrelevant to 'Motorhome Matters' as the OP now seems to relate to a car(?), and indeed the pictures posted subequently show MH parking at a Hypermarket in France, which I fail to see has any relevence to overstaying your welcome at an Asda UK car park!.

I cannot quite work out just what the actual 'query' raised was, and as far as I can understand is actually more a complaint against the DVLA releasing the OPs address, and the fact that he seems to idisagree with the subsequent change of law.......I am sure he is not alone in either of those points,but as mere taxpayers, we have no control in this.

In terms of 'payment' (or fines, if you prefer that term), we always check in advance how long you are allowed,and whether you have to produce a receipt for purchases.....if it is parking for a sole supermarket, then I guess 2 hours is probably OK, but where it is part of a retail shopping area with several different - usually large - outlets then thats a different question. However, I really do not feel it unreasonable that a supermarket should impose a time limit to avoid it being abused, especially in some locations. WE recentlyvisited Seaton,Devon,where there is a new Tesco supermarket. The time limit on the car park there is 3 hours, which gives plenty of time for shopping both in teh Supermarket and also for going to have a coffee or do some other shopping in the town which is about 5 mins walk away. What is does not allow - quite reasonably, i htink, is time to spend the day on the beach and use their parking facility!

[Mel B]

Tesco in Beverley has a 3 hour parking limit, this is an article about it and why they brought in a company to keep in in check:

 

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/crackdown-TESCO-PARKERS/story-11945557-detail/story.html

 

Having been very frustrated at not being able to park there to do my shopping in Tesco their store, I am totally in support of the installation of the CCTV system and the imposition of fines, although I think the fines are too high.

[Robinhood]

Can't understand why the OP is getting quite so hot under the collar.

 

The Asda car park in Kings Heath is private land and provided entirely for the benefit of ASDA as a business (and only indirectly their customers to encourage them to shop in the store).

 

It is a smallish car park in a very busy High Street area where, without a limit on parking I have little doubt that people would choose to park for extended periods, not simply whilst visiting ASDA, thereby obviously proving a real constraint on ASDA's takings.

 

Not unnaturally, ASDA have chosen to limit the time allowed, and I have little doubt that the signs denoting this are readily apparent (they certainly were when the Streetview pictures were taken B-)).

 

If you overstay, then expect to pay!

 

Now, I realise the OP says he wasn't the driver, and therefore didn't enter into the contract with ASDA, but the remainder of the process seems largely natural and acceptable to me. As the only readily identifiable contact, it seems reasonable to write to the keeper of the vehicle, whether the driver or not. As this relates to a contract with the driver, nothing in the wording quoted indicates that the proposed charge is on the keeper (unless they are one and the same).

 

Morally, it might be considered that payment is appropriate. As for whether the level of the proposed charge is merited or not, two things come to mind:

 

i) the original amount and potential early-payment reduction proposed is not much out of line with that for a legally enforceable Penalty Charge Notice (say from a Council), where the actual loss to them would be significantly less. They also get your details from the DVLA, and would proceed in a similar manner via the registered keeper.

 

ii) It is facile to pretend that the loss to ASDA would be minimal. It looks like a very busy car park, and overstaying by even 26 minutes could cause a loss of one person's weekly shop - the potential value of which can be estimated from the OP's own quoted shopping figures.

 

.....so, if the overstay had been on a designated on-street parking place, and a Penalty Charge Notice had been issued by the council (in much the same manner, and say £70 reducing to £35 for prompt payment), would it invoke the same response (because in this case the registered keeper is legally responsible, not the driver).

 

I might have some sympathy if the parking had been for an extended shopping session in ASDA (almost 2 hours of hell IMO), but since the OP doesn't seem to know who WAS driving, neither will he know if they were in ASDA, or the Starbucks down the High Street!

 

Whilst there are certainly some connotations around the Data Protection Act I feel slightly uneasy about, frankly, I have little sympathy with people who flout well signposted and reasonably thought-out parking restrictions, even on private land.

 

As for the changes now making the registered keeper liable, then as above, they are only aligning with the legally enforceable Penalty Charge Notice, and as a corollary, clamping on private land is to be outlawed. I think there may still be some way to go, but (given an appeals process, and the duty to make any penalty reasonable) all-in-all it looks like an improvement to me.

[Robinhood]

Sophie - 2012-10-14 8:37 PM

 

Just caught up and read through the thread. Not sure why.

Reminds me of Shakespeare's play:

 

-"Much ado about Nothing"

 

 

 

 

......maybe "Tight as Andronicus" ;-)

[crinklystarfish]

Or tight and an anus.

[ips]

I think that robin has summarized the whole thing completely. I fully agree with all his comments and for the life me i cant see what op's problem is.