crinklystarfish Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Tracker - 2012-11-20 10:48 AM...Shall we let it go there as it is all rather pointless isn't it... Quite happy to, the hole you publicly dug yourself was quite deep enough - before you dug it just that little bit more; I'm not even sure you are able to control yourself. Please do reflect on how you spoil some threads. Anyway, even though I'm quite sure the last thing you really want to do is "let it go", I'm done. You are exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oh dear, as I have already said, I had nothing more to say on the subject, but you just can't let it go can you? So as you persist in having pokes at me I will ask you to remember that it was you who chose to attack me in the first place and all I have done is respond? You might also wish to reflect on the unjustified and offensive way that you chose to raise the subject of holier than thou with me together with your wild accusations about my attitudes the weight of my own van? I think that an apology from you would not be out of order but I doubt you have the guts for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 'You are WRONG as I certainly DO have a clue: it is when it isn't sensible to take it on the road, regardless of whether it is legal or not - a motorhome does not have to actually BE overloaded to become 'unsafe'. The loaded weight can make it less safe so that such things as the stopping distances increase with the extra load so it doesn't come to a halt in as short a distance as it would at a lower weight - eg this could mean the difference between hitting a child or not. Also a loaded motorhome doesn't handle as well as it would with less weight, which in itself can cause accidents, if the driver is unable to get it to go round a corner as it should and swing out more, causing problems for others etc - how many drivers change their driving style to take account of the extra weight I wonder .... ' Mel this is exactly what i mean when i say you do not have a clue, neither do i as a matter of fact. What you say i cannot argue with but it is politician speak, not a single fact involved. What are you talking about, when does it become unsafe, give us all an example so we know. If a van is say 100kg overweight how much longer will it take to stop, why will it handle less well, they handle like a bungalow on wheels anyway. Do you go out and road test your van every time to make sure? Most can drive to a reasonable standard and make an allowance for the load, a 100kg you will never notice so how much over becomes dangerous. I am not talking legal now but purely weight. If I put two more people in my van, say extra 120kg am I then unsafe? This is the over the top reaction to the subject i sort of expected from some but not from you i must say. Incidently no offence intended just a point of view i do not go in for the type of reaction seen recently, MORON comments will never come into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hold on, hold on! Perhaps this, even more succinct statement will convey the message? ANY vehicle that is almost or fully loaded (while still being entirely legal) will handle differently and will take longer to stop than a vehicle that is partially loaded. You don't NEED any empirical evidence to support that because we ALL know it to be true. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that if you over load a vehicle beyond it's legal limits your actions will most definitely NOT have IMPROVED the handling or braking of said vehicle. Thankfully for us we are protected from doing this ourselves and can rest assured that other road users will not take these risks because we have LAWS. Because of these laws we, unlike our cousins in 3rd world countries that have no such rules regarding loads and suffer great carnage, can travel in relative safety knowing that one day, those who ignore the law will be prosecuted. Hopefully the above will occur while they are towing an A frame in Spain, believing that the law of their land applies to someone else too. There you go; how many facts do you need? Surely that is the end of that? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Seems like 3.5 tonne vans are of very real concern to VOSA: http://www.dvtani.gov.uk/uploads/compliance/VOSA_VehicleSafety_DangersofOverloading.pdf I feel sure that those who aren't by now getting the fact that the safety issues caused by any increase in vehicle mass are on a continuum are ever going to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 You also have to consider that unlike commercial drivers who might overload their vehicles, motorhome drivers generally drive with more care and at lower speeds than they do and if you take the loading analogy to it's ultimate perhaps we should leave everything at home and make the van as light as we can so that it will stop a few metres quicker if ever we get ourselves into a situation where it matters? Or why not take it to it's ultimate and just drive a car and know that you can stop soon when needed - and even then braking distances between similar models can vary dramatically so make sure you choose the right car and don't carry any passengers. Come on guys - reason and common sense should apply which is why I advocate taking your fully laden van out on a quiet road to see just how far it takes to bring it to a halt from 50 or even 40 mph - it's a real eye opener as is the handling under severe braking especially if the road is wet, potholed or has camber. I'm not endorsing or advocating overloading in any way but there has to be some common sense applied especially when, as I understand it from previous postings, so many vans well capable of a GVW of 4000 kg are down plated to 3500kg to comply with an outdated UK law. My van will soon be legal to 3850kg (from 3500kg) and all I need is uprated tyres and rear suspension because the existing brakes are deemed quite adequate for the extra load - silly or what? I know it will take longer to stop as the laws of inertia are hardly rocket science but if the maker and the DVLA consider it safe that is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 euroserv - 2012-11-20 6:43 PM Hold on, hold on! Perhaps this, even more succinct statement will convey the message? ANY vehicle that is almost or fully loaded (while still being entirely legal) will handle differently and will take longer to stop than a vehicle that is partially loaded. You don't NEED any empirical evidence to support that because we ALL know it to be true. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that if you over load a vehicle beyond it's legal limits your actions will most definitely NOT have IMPROVED the handling or braking of said vehicle. Thankfully for us we are protected from doing this ourselves and can rest assured that other road users will not take these risks because we have LAWS. Because of these laws we, unlike our cousins in 3rd world countries that have no such rules regarding loads and suffer great carnage, can travel in relative safety knowing that one day, those who ignore the law will be prosecuted. Hopefully the above will occur while they are towing an A frame in Spain, believing that the law of their land applies to someone else too. There you go; how many facts do you need? Surely that is the end of that? Nick No Nick it is not. While you clearly know vans you just as clearly have no knowledge of motorhomes. Trackers post above is an example of what happens all the time. A M/H at 3300kg, as my last one was, wanted to carry a scooter so fit air suspensionn on the rear uprated to 3500kg, no problem. At 3300kg can now load to 3500kg with no change to brakes or tyres and minimal to suspension. The next owner may choose to downpate back to 3300kg but then overload to 3400kg, not likely but possible, is it now dangerous? Most M/H can be legally uprated if the owners choose to, most do not because it pays to keep under 3500kg hope that is clear. Makers like Autotrail on some vans even offer a choice of weights for the same van as do Elddis with their top range, Aspire think. This is not white van man world, differant place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Rupert ... I simply do not know what to say to you in more simple terms to get you to understand that increasing the weight you carry in a vehicle will reduce the stopping distance, it's not politician speak at all and regardless of whether it is a van or a motorhome it will still affect it (I think you are being very unfair on Nick and IMV owe him an apology :-| ). Putting an extra 100kg in a motorhome can affect it, how great that effect is will depend on how you've loaded it, what weight it was previously carrying before you put the 100kg in, and how well the driver of the vehicle is able to cope with a heavier vehicle. If the extra weight is, for example, put in a rear garage, even though the motorhome may still be under it's 'legal' limit, this can really affect the handling - anyone who has got a load of plonk and brought it back home this way should certainly be able to confirm this - we certainly noticed it in our Rimor and Chausson motorhomes which is why we instead put some of the beer under the front dinette table (safely) so that the weight was more evenly spread throughout the motorhomes, this did make a difference tot he handling, but we still knew we had the extra weight on board and drove accordingly. If you want to keep 'debating' it feel free, but I've said as much as I can really, and don't intend to keep repeating myself ... I've got better things to go an read! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I would think that a major influence on the stopping distance of a motor home, is the reaction time of the driver, particularly when you consider the ages of most of us. :-D :-D Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Mel B - 2012-11-20 11:22 PM Rupert ... I simply do not know what to say to you in more simple terms to get you to understand that increasing the weight you carry in a vehicle will reduce the stopping distance, it's not politician speak at all and regardless of whether it is a van or a motorhome it will still affect it (I think you are being very unfair on Nick and IMV owe him an apology :-| ). . If you want to keep 'debating' it feel free, but I've said as much as I can really, and don't intend to keep repeating myself ... I've got better things to go an read! :-D Mel I really begin to wonder if you bother to read anything that may dispute your point. Please read my last post and tell me were I am wrong. You do indeed keep repeating yourself and I have never said what you say is wrong. I am in no way disputing extra load will increase stopping distance, so what, you make an allowance for this. What is the differance between a legal load and an overload where this is concerned, I among several others have already pointed out that m/h legal load can almost be altered at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 rupert123 - 2012-11-16 9:39 AMLast weekend meet up with my brother and a friend in our vans and got talking in the pub. I was a little surprised neither of them had a clue about how much their vans weighed when loaded and neither cared very much. Both were of the opinion, probably correct, that if you did not look overloaded it was very unlikely you would be stopped so why worry about it... OK Mr123, you win. I've decided to ignore my plate too. I'm persuaded that the Transport Research Lab, legislators, VOSA, the Police, Local Authorities, reputable haulage operators, and the like are simply too far up themselves and 3 blokes in a pub have actually managed to throw new light on this whole matter. Your contribution has been well researched, powerfully articulated, and I especially respect the way you managed to rebut the assertions that there is a strong positive correlation between any increase in weight and the ability of the vehicle, and just as importantly, the driver to cope in emergency situations. I think the motorhome community is indebted. Do let us know how you 3 go on with that solution to the current woes in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirles Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I recently traded in my bolero 680FB for a autotrail delaware and i was well aware beforehand that handling and stability on the road at speed would not be as good as the bolero which had the alko chassis. But i bought it for the better layout (lovely island bed). So when i collected it from the dealer and drove it home with just me and the wife onboard the stability at speed(60mph) was inferior, but i just tailored my driving style to suit like we all do. And when all the crap we all carry about with us was added i had to make further adjustments to driving style. The bolero loaded to just under it's 3500kg max was a lot more stable on the road than the delaware loaded well below it's 4250kg max. So payload is not the most important criteria, but the common sense of the person behind the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Mel B - 2012-11-20 11:22 PM Putting an extra 100kg in a motorhome can affect it, how great that effect is will depend on how you've loaded it, what weight it was previously carrying before you put the 100kg in, and how well the driver of the vehicle is able to cope with a heavier vehicle. Look at it from another angle Mel and think of 100kg in terms of one large passenger - or a smaller passenger and two dogs - and consider the impact that extra weight has on stopping power? Having driven may miles in both fully laden and unladen vans and motorhomes I can confirm the obvious - a fully laden vehicle takes longer to stop than an empty one! Having also driven many miles in a van both with and without a passenger and dog I can also say that I have never noticed any difference in actual stopping ability. More importantly is the way they stop as an empty van can be prone to rear end lock up and slide even with weight activated brake force limiter valves, whereas a laden van can sometimes weave about under heavy braking. On balance my perception, based on limited emergency braking, is that a laden vehicle is more predictable within the limitations of stopping distance - others may have different perceptions? At the other extreme an extra 100kg in a bubble car can mean the difference between driving uphill and walking alongside it - and as for stopping it - well prayer comes to mind as an option! Horses for courses and as long as the driver is experienced and competent I really don't see the problem? I would rather have a motorhome driver of considerable experience in an overloaded motorhome behind me than a novice motorhome hirer in an underweight motorhome or white van man in an empty Merc Sprinter doing 90 mph on the motorway. If we are going to make judgements about weight they should be made in conjunction with all the other factors that affect stopping distance - driver ability, road surface, base vehicle design capability, weather conditions, vehicle maintainence. The final factor is the suitability of the conversion to the chassis as height and body overhang has a huge impact on handling and braking as we all know - so why is it being ignored? Perhaps not applicable in a panel van conversion but these are usually so far below design safe weight limits anyway that they are by their nature always going to be better at handling and stopping than any coachbuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 This thread is a perfect example of why this forum needs an effective moderator. It is now going round in circles and tempers are getting frayed. Much as I like to see the odd childish spat (as a neutral), they get boring very quickly. It also puts a lot of members from posting and leasves the forum wide open the the regular spatterers (is that a word?). :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 747 - 2012-11-21 10:07 AM This thread is a perfect example of why this forum needs an effective moderator. It is now going round in circles and tempers are getting frayed. Much as I like to see the odd childish spat (as a neutral), they get boring very quickly. It also puts a lot of members from posting and leasves the forum wide open the the regular spatterers (is that a word?). :D Err - wakey wakey - I think most of us have moved on and reasoned - well almost - discussion has returned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Tracker - 2012-11-21 10:15 AM 747 - 2012-11-21 10:07 AM This thread is a perfect example of why this forum needs an effective moderator. It is now going round in circles and tempers are getting frayed. Much as I like to see the odd childish spat (as a neutral), they get boring very quickly. It also puts a lot of members from posting and leasves the forum wide open the the regular spatterers (is that a word?). :D Err - wakey wakey - I think most of us have moved on and reasoned - well almost - discussion has returned!! I am wide awake as it happens. Although I did not mention any names in my previous post, your ears must be burning. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Just looked at my original post on this thread and like most long threads this one has moved away from the point I was trying to make. I really did not want to get into a dispute over the issue of stopping distance etc. especially as the extra load I mentioned was 100kg and repeat this will have no effect on stopping or cornering ability, at least not an amount that could be measured. I suppose it was inevitable that some would take exception to this and bring out all the possible situations where it would be very dodgy. I would remind them I was suggesting a 100kg, not white van man and a 1000kg. I also stick by my suggestion, and original point, that the great majority of M/H owners neither knew or cared about this. Again I never said I agreed with this, as Mel and Crinkly seem to think, indeed because I carry a scooter reckon I weigh my van more than most and always know pretty much what van weighs. Not being ‘holier than thou’ here but reckon if anyone is a candidate for being stopped it is the van with a scooter on the back. Certainly did not wish the thread to fall into a slanging match, good dispute is one thing but personal insults another, although even here some sensitive souls will take exception more than others. So sorry to anyone who feels they have suffered, perhaps a proper moderator is long overdue on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 747 - methinks you do protest too much and in so doing you too run the risk of joining the holier than thou club! Before you condemn me I suggest you look back at just who started the nastiness - I'll give you a hint - NOT ME!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 That is tyhe first we have agreed on anything Rupert (the mod). Is this a new tactic to drive me off the forum. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Just to add a bit more confusion to this thread :D...........How accurate are public weighbridges?.........considering they're are designed for weighing trucks ;-)..................are they accurate to the last kilo?.....10 kg?.....50 kg?... 100 kg?.........and do they tend to under weigh or over weigh? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Don't you think this thread has gone on long enough?? :-S at the end of the day if anyone is stupid enough to go over their permitted payload intentionally then they deserve the inevitable consequences !! I gave up reading the long winded threads long ago !! it has inevitable turned into a testosterone fueled slanging match AGAIN :-S and if anyone did start reading it to gain any information ! they have long since died of BOREDOM (lol) PACK IT IN >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Can't speak for all Dave but there are three near me and all are supposed to be within 20kg either way. That said when I weighed the van unchanged on the same day at two of em they were much more than 40 kg apart on gross weight - so I went to the third which came in between the two but within 20 kg of the first one! The second one is at a gravel pit and I think the mud and gravel on it, which is not an issue if you are weighing a lorry empty and full for the gravel load weight, was an issue for our sort of weight needs. So find a clean weighbridge! Best of all it was free because I buy my gas there so no more paying £5 or £10 for the weighbridge - as long as I buy a gas refill at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Weighbridges are extremely accurate, as long as they are checked regularly and I believe they have to ber checked at set intervals by an official body (cannot remember who, probably Weights and Measures). My local Council has a Metrology Department, so maybe they test local ones. I have installed the odd weighbridge and set them up to read properly and accurately in readiness for their commissioning (usually done by the Manufacturer). Digital ones for HGV's etc with a digital readout either read to the nearest 10 kg or 20 kg, depending on use. Another fallacy is that if you put a light vehicle on a large weighbridge, it cannot be accurate. They are tested and certified accurate from zero to whatever. ALL types of weighscales must be this accurate whether you are weighing a kilo of apples or a HGV fully loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 747 - 2012-11-21 11:56 AM I have installed the odd weighbridge and set them up to read properly and accurately in readiness for their commissioning (usually done by the Manufacturer). Digital ones for HGV's etc with a digital readout either read to the nearest 10 kg or 20 kg, depending on use. Which is my point ;-).................went to a weighbridge last week with the trailer......GTW 264 kg under........camper alone 30 kg over *-) So with a 20 kg variation I am either 10 kg or 50 kg over?.........weighbridges are not exactly the best guide considering what slim payloads camper vans have 8-) So if you applied Rich's experience of a 40 kg difference, add the fact that we don't know if that's a under or over reading :-S ....................its not easy is it Maggy? >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-11-21 12:16 PM 747 - 2012-11-21 11:56 AM I have installed the odd weighbridge and set them up to read properly and accurately in readiness for their commissioning (usually done by the Manufacturer). Digital ones for HGV's etc with a digital readout either read to the nearest 10 kg or 20 kg, depending on use. Which is my point ;-).................went to a weighbridge last week with the trailer......GTW 264 kg under........camper alone 30 kg over *-) So with a 20 kg variation I am either 10 kg or 50 kg over?.........weighbridges are not exactly the best guide considering what slim payloads camper vans have 8-) So if you applied Rich's experience of a 40 kg difference, add the fact that we don't know if that's a under or over reading :-S ....................its not easy is it Maggy? >:-) You misunderstand what I said .... maybe my fault though. A weighbridge used for industrial purposes with a digital readout MAY be set to read in 10 or 20Kg increments, it will still accurately weigh, it is just the readout system. These types are not best used for your purpose (and are not normally used for private vehicles). The typical weighbridge that allows anyone to use it for a small charge will not have these restrictions and will give the exact weight that it reads. When I was on a construction job in derbyshire, I did occasionally drive on to one with the 10 Kg setting. I was living in my van and had a lot of kit with me as I was away for usually a month at a time. This was just to check that I was still legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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