Guest pelmetman Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 No Mr Millypeed we are wide awake :D................and the sooner the better ;-) An interesting link.........http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036096.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Unfortunately there are those who believe the EU is the panacea to all ills and will never be convinced that the UK will not go to Hell in a handcart if we left. Some of the loudest proponents of course are in receipt of EU funds (not mentioning any names but you should have stuck to Last of the Summer Wine) so have vested interests in keeping the EU autocracy sweet. I gather the latest wheeze is to have a EU budget without the UK. Hooray if that means we do not pay but somehow I do not think that is the way they are thinking. Now before anyone thinks I am a total anti EU that is not he case. The idea is fine it is just that as usual the greed and incompetence have taken control and until that is sorted we are better with the incompetents we have home grown. Europe could easily manage fine as just a set of trading partners without all this union BS, but if that is to happen then we would in some ways be returning to Roman days when Europe was last under a single control. It did not last forever then so is unlikely to do so again, and who provides the centurions and foot soldiers I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 So has Red Ed - he who is continually accusing the Tories of making U turns - done a U turn of his own and at last seen the light at the end of the EU gravy train tunnel? Or does he see it purely as a vote winner to be cast aside if he wins the next shambles? I wonder whether his view would shift again if he were in power and I wonder if he would have the balls (no not the other Ed - his own!) to stand up and fight the EU for the benefit of the UK as Maggie - bless her - used to? I wonder?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Well put Dave. What the EU should be is a Common Trading Platform of Sovereign Nations. I also think the European Court overall is a good thing. Although the Votes for Prisoners is a bit of an own goal on their part. We just need to get them off the silly idea of a currency union. And if we could get them to stay in one place rather than migrate to two centres every 6 months Also there is the issue of competence - as their accounts have never been ratified I fail to see how they can keep asking for more and more each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Just to sidetrack a tad, and you can shout it down if you wish. We have all been hearing a lot of criticism regarding the current bunch in Government, and I am just as unhappy at many of things they have done, or more importantly not done. But think carefully. If we all knock them back then Red Ed and his really scary bunch will be back in power and can anyone really sleep at night knowing swivel eyes is running the economy? After all they had 13 years screwing it all up, so are well prepared. Let us all protest and shout but at the next election be very careful what you wish for. Some may say let us all vote UKIP or for independents but UKIP will not have a mandate as they are basically a 1 policy Party at the moment, and independents will never agree. Unfortunately i have not seen any shining lights in any of them to make me jump out of bed, and I include the SNP, but we will need a Government of some sort or we degenerate into anarchy. OK, all anarchists stop cheering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Fair point Dave - but you will be safe with two fish cakes Salmond and Sturgeon running your lot whilst we will have fruit cakes running ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Dave225 - 2012-11-19 8:01 PM OK, all anarchists stop cheering. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 has anyone read "Animal Farm"? AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Archiesgrandad - 2012-11-19 8:35 PM has anyone read "Animal Farm"? AGD Is that something to do with the EU CAP's :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 WIDU - Cameron appears to be on his own wanting to cap the EU Budget increase. How come Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal, ireland & a few others can afford to support an increase. (?) Especially as the EU are imposing Budget cuts to their economies, how do they propose the increases are to be paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Welcome to the dinosaurs social club, who seem to think that england can survive on it's own in the modern world. As someone has already said "we'd go to hell in a handcart". Do you really think that all these foriegn car makers etc would stay here if we had trade tarrifs?, I think not. So all you sleepy dinosaurs, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Said with all your usual charm and charisma Peter - but although it grieves me to say so and I promise not to make a habit of it - I think you are on this one rare occasion quite right!! But maybe we are paying a tad too much tax in return for the benefits of being a member of this alleged trading block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 CliveH - 2012-11-19 7:53 PM What the EU should be is a Common Trading Platform of Sovereign Nations. Thunderous applause for that Clive, in principle, but does anyone seriously think that's going to be on offer, once the UK has taken its bat home from the present treaties? And to have a Common Trading Platform (=Market?) requires a lot of rules on free movement of capital and labour to make it work. something like the Single European Act WHICH THE EUROSCEPTICS' GODDESS MAGGIE SIGNED. Of course there's a whole lot wrong with the EU, some of it down to unelected bureacrats - but most of it's down to elected politicians who want to stay that way, so have to please their domestic electorates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I dn't understand why it should grieve you to see common sense Richard. We are too far down the road now to think that the clock can be turned back. We have gained a lot by being in this club. But as you say, we need to keep a close eye on what it the cost / benefits are and that the balance is not skewed the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Common sense is one thing that I do have in abundance Peter. What 'grieved' me was agreeing with you!! I too very much see our future within Europe but it should be on the terms of the net contributors not the terms of the net beneficiaries or we will all be dragged down. He who paid the piper used to call the tune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Well, that was a foreseeable consequence of broadening, rather than deepening, the EC. Remember that debate? Most of the sceptics at the time saw broadening as a great wheeze to prevent deepening. That fount of all wisdom (or apparently so in the opinion of many of the Sceptics) the US, was also encouraging broadening for purely political, rather (maybe :-)) than economic reasons. They thought it would tie in the ex Soviet block countries to the western democratic tradition, and bring them greater stability than might otherwise be the case. I think they saw nasty little local wars springing up. Of course, they might also have seen that it would hobble the otherwise broadly compatible, and far more economically competitive, core EC members for a generation or so, while they picked up the pieces. The better idea, which I favoured at the time, would have been to assist those applicant countries, whose economies were more compatible one to another, to form their own union outside the EU, but with a preferred trading status until they had grown to nearer economic parity, following which they could merge in if agreement could be reached. Now we see the result. An organisation in which a minority of richer, donor, states see decisions made to favour the majority of poorer, recipient, states. Peoples' responsibility when given access to other peoples' money has always been questionable. Short sighted sceptics, eh? Where would we be without them? In a far better place, IMO! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Can't see too big a problem. Being a net contributor they would get less to fritter away, we would have more in the coffer's. They import more to us, so putting tariffs on our export's would only provoke a retaliation. We could use those tariff's we get to compensate our exporter's, that in it's self would harm the biggest EU importer (guess who), it would free us from the shackles of the EU so we could freely export to other places in the world. It would end the stupid laws that they bring out which in my opinion are a huge drain on our economy and sense of justice. Now where are the benefits of being a net contributor, I'm with Rich regarding calling the tune, and if they want to do their little deals, (see most paper headlines this morning) without us around the table then so be it, because that will mean we will be out sooner rather than later. Free trade yes......penalty trade no. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 14 billion a year would be better spent in the UK in my view................ Only a muppet gives away money he doesn't have *-).................. A really stupid muppet borrows money to give it away >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Can anyone honestly foresee the turkeys we are helping to feed voting for our Christmas at their expense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 flicka - 2012-11-19 10:00 PM WIDU - Cameron appears to be on his own wanting to cap the EU Budget increase. How come Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal, ireland & a few others can afford to support an increase. (?) Especially as the EU are imposing Budget cuts to their economies, how do they propose the increases are to be paid. Simple. Unlike us they get back more than they pay in and would like even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 We should help every struggling Euro economy by giving them our taxes to build new factories to make goods cheaper than we can so that we can then buy what were our goods that they now make for the same price that they were before we gave the jobs away - plus the cost of transportation by trucks from the new country of origin. That way the whole of Europe will become more wealthy and will be only too pleased to help us recover some of the jobs we gave them so that we can afford to buy the goods that we used to make. Does anyone see any flaws in that idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Tracker - 2012-11-20 8:24 PM We should help every struggling Euro economy by giving them our taxes to build new factories to make goods cheaper than we can so that we can then buy what were our goods that they now make for the same price that they were before we gave the jobs away - plus the cost of transportation by trucks from the new country of origin. That way the whole of Europe will become more wealthy and will be only too pleased to help us recover some of the jobs we gave them so that we can afford to buy the goods that we used to make. Does anyone see any flaws in that idea? None at all, Rich, but then I always thought perpetual motion an attractive idea as well! :-) It is where we have allowed the sceptics to get us. It is our own fault. The idea of a referendum on Europe, whatever the question, is barking. To have a meaningful referendum you have to have informed voters. The voters, by and large, are not informed. They are fed bits of information, usually skewed to someone's political agenda, and they hoover up all the bits that chime with their prejudices and preferences. A large proportion of the country, who voted in the referendum over joining the EC, still don't understand what they voted for then. They never understood that the EC was more than a Common Market, and that it would evolve and change over years as it sought to solve the problems it created. Many still can't understand why rules, standards, and laws are required to ensure its effective operation. No-one is spelling out the case on one side or the other with clarity. The leading members of the opposing camps spout endless Tweedledum and Tweedledee politically dogmatic rhetoric, but not a single, verified, fact. Oddly, when it comes to Scottish independence, a lot of us seem to be able to spot that some of the story seems to be missing. But, when it is the EC, those same people seem uncritically to believe whatever their rose coloured specs lead them to read. They seem to me to believe in both Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, but can't accept that is the level of their thinking. They seem to me like a bloke I saw interviewed this evening, who had taken out serial pay-day loans until the re-payments exceeded his monthly income. He said he accepted some responsibility for his predicament, but added that if the banks had properly assessed his ability to repay, he would not have got into the mess in the first place. Right! Who was it who applied for, and agreed to, the loans? But, he's got the right to vote in any election or referendum, and his vote carries the same weight as yours, mine, or anyone else's. Not much hope, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-11-20 10:56 PM But, he's got the right to vote in any election or referendum, and his vote carries the same weight as yours, mine, or anyone else's. Not much hope, is there? Maybe they should just tell us a bunch of lies to get into power, then ignore what the electorate want once they win ;-) Hmmmm sounds familiar? *-) BTW I see Catalonia wants to separate from Spain...........it seems even they don't like financing the PIGS (lol) (lol) (lol)................The European experiment that was supposed to bring us altogether, looks more like its going to help break up several countries >:-)......... Viva la revolution..........."Separation for Lincolnshire"........ :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-11-21 8:54 AM Brian Kirby - 2012-11-20 10:56 PM But, he's got the right to vote in any election or referendum, and his vote carries the same weight as yours, mine, or anyone else's. Not much hope, is there? Maybe they should just tell us a bunch of lies to get into power, then ignore what the electorate want once they win ;-) Hmmmm sounds familiar? *-) BTW I see Catalonia wants to separate from Spain...........it seems even they don't like financing the PIGS (lol) (lol) (lol)................The European experiment that was supposed to bring us altogether, looks more like its going to help break up several countries >:-)......... Viva la revolution..........."Separation for Lincolnshire"........ :D As for Brian's point - oh how I agree!! - having met a few of these people myself I am not just staggered that society allows them a vote - I am more concerned that they are allowed to breed and walk amongst us!! (lol) As for the break-up of Spain with the Catalan region wanting Independence - do remember that the Basque region has been calling for this for many years so such calls for separate identity is not new - what is new is the debacle that the federal government finds itself in. Perhaps we should remember as well that the Spanish Civil War kicked off in Cantabria after the central government overstepped the mark in its dealing with the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-11-21 8:54 AM BTW I see Catalonia wants to separate from Spain...........it seems even they don't like financing the PIGS (lol) (lol) (lol)................The European experiment that was supposed to bring us altogether, looks more like its going to help break up several countries >:-)......... Viva la revolution..........."Separation for Lincolnshire"........ :D Lincolnshire should do well Dave as there are more PIGS in Lincolnshire than many other counties - apart from which you will have left, along with everyone else - last one out please switch off the lights - by the time the county has it's own tax raising powers - then needs a bail out from Norfolk to save it's bacon! Of course Lincs could always seek a loan from Scotland or Wales but I suspect their ability to run their own finances without their noses in the Westminster trough will be more pie in the sky (pork pie of course!) than probable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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