pepe63xnotuse Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 colin - 2012-12-23 10:05 AM ...Lies,damn lies and statistics... Lets take me and my neighbor, between us we have 6 fire arms and 6 people, so 100% ownership? no we have 33% ownership. So..."statistics" aside,by some of the reasoning we're hearing coming from the gun owning fruit- loops in interviews on TV etc,your "none gun owning" neighbours would be safer if they armed themselves then..?..."a level playing field" and all that..? :-S ....you know...just in case one of the "33% have an "off day"... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 colin - 2012-12-23 10:05 AM CliveH - 2012-12-23 5:18 AM You say the figures are spectacularly wrong but do not offer alternative data Colin. The data from the UK Guardian back up the figs Dave posted. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list Lies,damn lies and statistics. That article in no way backs up the figures. I'm very supprised you have quoted those figures in such a way. The number of guns in any country does nessaraly relate to the number of people owning a gun. As I said an estimated 32% of people own a gun in the US, the country that is estimated to have the highest proportion of gun owners is Switzerland. Lets take me and my neighbor, between us we have 6 fire arms and 6 people, so 100% ownership? no we have 33% ownership. Well you certainly get it wrong time and time again Colin. I never said that 89% own a gun - Dave was wrong in saying that - that is why I quoted and posted a link to the article. I think the article makes it very clear what the statistics mean. It states quite clearly that the 89% fig represents how many guns their are per the population. for each 100 Americans there are 89 guns "in circulation". Hence the 89% As for your particular example:- Per the population of your two households there is indeed 100% availability of guns to the two households. You have 6 individuals and 6 guns. Who owns the guns is hardly the issue. What is the issue is the availability to a nutter that wants to use them. We have three people living in our house and 4 cars - go figure!! I used to do small bore rifle shooting as part of my Duke of Edinburgh award. And for a while I owned two guns. But I grew out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-12-22 9:43 PM 36% of Americans have a passport....................89% of Americans have a gun.............. 8-) CliveH - 2012-12-23 5:18 AM The data from the UK Guardian back up the figs Dave posted. CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM Well you certainly get it wrong time and time again Colin. I never said that 89% own a gun - Now tell me I'm quoting you out of context *-) CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM Per the population of your two households there is indeed 100% availability of guns to the two households. You have 6 individuals and 6 guns. Who owns the guns is hardly the issue. What is the issue is the availability to a nutter that wants to use them. That would be a breach of licensing conditions, only one person in each household has access to firearms, but it is IMO one of the failings of the american system as the latest atrocity would seem to bare out. CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM I used to do small bore rifle shooting as part of my Duke of Edinburgh award. And for a while I owned two guns. But I grew out of it. Only the other week I came across a couple of badges of mine, one is a single rifle with a crown over it, the other is crossed rifles with a crown above. I 'grew out' of target shooting 40 years ago, and once again it would be a breach of my licensing conditions for me to attempt to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 pepe63 - 2012-12-23 10:39 AM colin - 2012-12-23 10:05 AM ...Lies,damn lies and statistics... Lets take me and my neighbor, between us we have 6 fire arms and 6 people, so 100% ownership? no we have 33% ownership. So..."statistics" aside,by some of the reasoning we're hearing coming from the gun owning fruit- loops in interviews on TV etc,your "none gun owning" neighbours would be safer if they armed themselves then..?..."a level playing field" and all that..? :-S ....you know...just in case one of the "33% have an "off day"... *-) Sitting here in the UK what the NRA are proposing with armed guards at schools might sound madness, but they have a wholely different problem. They have vast amounts of firearms owned by god knows who, and the reports I hear are that shops are selling out of assault rifles and this is on top of a selling spree when Obahma took office. Who are buying these rifles? Well don't rule out the prepper's they have been primed by the preachers of the middle eastern myth that judgement day is coming and there is a particular problem with Tony's Baptist's and allied cults that are in direct conflict with the education system which many blame for spreading the devils word, whilst many americans are perfectly nice and 'normal' there's plenty of nutters that, in this country wouldn't (shouldn't) get hold of firearms, but over there they are armed to the teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 colin - 2012-12-23 1:31 PM pepe63 - 2012-12-23 10:39 AM colin - 2012-12-23 10:05 AM ...Lies,damn lies and statistics... Lets take me and my neighbor, between us we have 6 fire arms and 6 people, so 100% ownership? no we have 33% ownership. So..."statistics" aside,by some of the reasoning we're hearing coming from the gun owning fruit- loops in interviews on TV etc,your "none gun owning" neighbours would be safer if they armed themselves then..?..."a level playing field" and all that..? :-S ....you know...just in case one of the "33% have an "off day"... *-) Sitting here in the UK what the NRA are proposing with armed guards at schools might sound madness, but they have a wholely different problem. They have vast amounts of firearms owned by god knows who, and the reports I hear are that shops are selling out of assault rifles and this is on top of a selling spree when Obahma took office. Who are buying these rifles? Well don't rule out the prepper's they have been primed by the preachers of the middle eastern myth that judgement day is coming and there is a particular problem with Tony's Baptist's and allied cults that are in direct conflict with the education system which many blame for spreading the devils word, whilst many americans are perfectly nice and 'normal' there's plenty of nutters that, in this country wouldn't (shouldn't) get hold of firearms, but over there they are armed to the teeth. Bl**dy nutters *-)............................the whole lot of em want shooting :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 colin - 2012-12-23 1:08 PM pelmetman - 2012-12-22 9:43 PM 36% of Americans have a passport....................89% of Americans have a gun.............. 8-) CliveH - 2012-12-23 5:18 AM The data from the UK Guardian back up the figs Dave posted. CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM Well you certainly get it wrong time and time again Colin. I never said that 89% own a gun - Now tell me I'm quoting you out of context *-) CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM Per the population of your two households there is indeed 100% availability of guns to the two households. You have 6 individuals and 6 guns. Who owns the guns is hardly the issue. What is the issue is the availability to a nutter that wants to use them. That would be a breach of licensing conditions, only one person in each household has access to firearms, but it is IMO one of the failings of the american system as the latest atrocity would seem to bare out. CliveH - 2012-12-23 11:17 AM I used to do small bore rifle shooting as part of my Duke of Edinburgh award. And for a while I owned two guns. But I grew out of it. Only the other week I came across a couple of badges of mine, one is a single rifle with a crown over it, the other is crossed rifles with a crown above. I 'grew out' of target shooting 40 years ago, and once again it would be a breach of my licensing conditions for me to attempt to do it again. Have I look at what the article states Colin. I agree with you that in typical Guardian style - it gets the stats wrong in that if states that the 88% (sorry - I think I quoted 89%) refers to gun ownership when the research actually states number of guns per population. The Guardian Article states:- "The Small Arms Survey is also useful - although it is from 2007, it collates civilian gun ownership rates for 178 countries around the world, and has 'normalised' the data to include a rate per 100,000 population. It shows that: With less than 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35–50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns, heavily skewing the global geography of firearms and any relative comparison So, given those caveats, we can see which countries have the highest ownership rates for firearms - and which have the highest gun murder rates. The key facts are: • The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people" For me the more interesting statistic is that Americans as just 5% of the WORLDS population owns between 35% and 50% of the WORLDS civilian owned guns. So yes I do think you are quoting out of context because as i say the article does back up what Dave stated. And to me - however you spin the facts - the Americans have to decide if their freedom to carry Arms is worth the price in children's lives alone! - Not forgetting the other innocents that get caught up in the carnage. As for the Licensing of guns - are you seriously saying that our licensing system is foolproof? Apart from the fact that you can hardly deny that if you have 6 guns in your cited 2 households and there are 6 individuals in the two houses then that is one gun each. Yes the security may be more rigorous than in the US - but there is not a gun cabinet in the land that I could not get into with a grinder and a drill. How many of the six people in your households could use such tools if they had the "desire" to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I understand that in Switzerland all adult males have to undergo military training and after this keep their guns at home. Switzerland has a very low rate of gun crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 But an unbelievable rate of financial "impropriety" 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 CliveH - 2012-12-23 6:55 PM And to me - however you spin the facts - the Americans have to decide if their freedom to carry Arms is worth the price in children's lives alone! - Not forgetting the other innocents that get caught up in the carnage. As for the Licensing of guns - are you seriously saying that our licensing system is foolproof? I suspect the US will carry on with the second amendment and their right to bear arms, I suspect they will reintroduce the ban on buying and selling assault weapons, it will be interesting to see if they revoke the licenses for concealed carry, I can't see them going much farther than this, but time will tell. No our system is not perfect as human error and police corruption have led to deaths and illegal weapons finding there way onto the street, but it's worth pointing out that we banned most handguns 15 years ago AFAIK since then a legally held handgun has not been used in a crime (not 100% sure) but we now have historically high use of handguns in crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The situation in the UK was not helped last year when ex - US marine Steven Greenoe legally bought 80 odd handguns in the US and smuggled them into the UK. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Just heard the tragic news that some firemen have been shot in the states,whilst responding to a call..!? 8-) ..so, should we expect the NRA's response to be that they(the firemen)should all be armed as well,then...!? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 pepe63 - 2012-12-24 7:48 PM ..so, should we expect the NRA's response to be that they(the firemen)should all be armed as well,then...!? *-) Well, it fits their logic. Should we look forward to machine gun turret on the cab roof of every fire engine ? :-( It's not guns that kill people ...... ............It's bullets. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I'm guessing the NRA, in it's own twisted way of looking at things, will point out that it was illegal for the killer to own guns due to his previous convictions so gun control doesn't work, but it may get them to agree with NCIS checks on all sales which would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 colin - 2012-12-25 11:09 AM I'm guessing the NRA, in it's own twisted way of looking at things, will point out that it was illegal for the killer to own guns due to his previous convictions so gun control doesn't work, but it may get them to agree with NCIS checks on all sales which would be a start. Checks are a good thng, the problem being who does them and to what standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.