janetsylvia Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Have been towing our small car with A frame for 6 years through Spain without any problem. We have heard a tale of towed cars being impounded by police at Santander after arrival on the ferry. Has anyone any concrete information about this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 May I suggest you use the "Search our forums" facility above? Enter "A-frame" as the key word, select "Motorhome matters" as the forum to search, and set the "Date limit" to one year. You will get loads of information, including detailed explanations as to the legality of A-frames in Spain. Bear in mind that Spain is not a fully unified state, it is more a federal state, and the laws, the police forces, and their attitudes vary around the country, and apparently from time to time. Therefore, it is not really possible to draw on experience in one part, and apply it to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Sorry Brian but this is a new one and search unlikely to throw up anything ....I know the A frame topic has been done to death on here, but was surprised to read Janet's post..but as she says it is a "tail" and as it sounds like neither first or even second hand info, more evidence required. Here we go again.....Big yawn *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1ntersun Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Hi, We are in Spain at the moment. We got fined last year so have not brought the car this year. There are 6 a-framers on site some have come via Santander and have not been stopped. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 w1ntersun - 2013-01-16 7:51 AM Hi, We are in Spain at the moment. We got fined last year so have not brought the car this year. There are 6 a-framers on site some have come via Santander and have not been stopped. Richard That's good enough for me! and a google search throws up nothing new...MODS!, lock it,...QUICK!:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 janetsylvia - 2013-01-15 11:00 PM Have been towing our small car with A frame for 6 years through Spain without any problem. We have heard a tale of towed cars being impounded by police at Santander after arrival on the ferry. Has anyone any concrete information about this??? Hi Janet and welcome to the forum. This subject has come up many times on this forum, and it seems quite clear that " towing a vehicle that is on its' wheels " is illegal in Spain. It makes no difference if you use a rope, a bar, or an A-frame. If you Google the subject you will find stories from people who have been fined. Of course, you will also hear that some people have done it and not been stopped - but that is, of course, not proof of legality. ( After all, people in this country use mobile phones when driving, but they don't all get stopped ). If are are unsure, I would suggest that you contact the Spanish authourities, such as the Spanish tourist office in the UK fro clarification. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-01-16 8:45 AM w1ntersun - 2013-01-16 7:51 AM Hi, We are in Spain at the moment. We got fined last year so have not brought the car this year. There are 6 a-framers on site some have come via Santander and have not been stopped. Richard That's good enough for me! and a google search throws up nothing new...MODS!, lock it,...QUICK!:D As you say, GOOGLE does not seem to produce anything NEW on this issue, but it does retrieve this 2012 Santander/A-frame entry that matches janertsylvia's "tale": http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/community/your-stories/CandT/Towing-with-A-Frame-in-Spain/rb/37413/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 We are currently in Portugal and I can assure you that there are many A Framers here . I spoke to a couple only Yesterday and they said they have had NO problems at all here or in Spain, you pays your money and you takes your chances as they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've now re-read the Caravan Club entry I gave a link to above. I still think this entry may have been the origin of the 'tale' janetsylvia mentions but, in fact, the details are significantly different. In the CC story "CandT" says "...on our return to Santander ferry we were stopped by the Civil Guardia Police..." However, it becomes evident subsequently that they were stopped in Madrid, given the option of paying a €40 on-the-spot fine or having their vehicle(s) impounded, made to unhitch the car from the motorhome, and CandT's wife then drove the car from Madrid to Santander. Although I can imagine the Spanish Police grabbing A-framers as they roll off the ferry in Santander or Bilbao (as they'd be sitting ducks) I can't see them impounding a vehicle unless the A-framer refused to pay the fine. Each year some motorcaravanners are fined for A-framing in Spain, though it would appear that the number involved is quite small. As all motorcaravanners should be aware by now that A-framing in Spain risked a brush with the Spanish Police, if they take the chance surely they should allow for the possibility of having to pay the money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Or what might be much more problematic: being required to uncouple the car, and drive it separately. For some, this could present real problems: where, for example, the motorhome passenger is the sole navigator (or there is only one sat-nav! :-)), is disabled, or has never driven abroad and is nervous at doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-01-17 6:05 PM Or what might be much more problematic: being required to uncouple the car, and drive it separately. For some, this could present real problems: where, for example, the motorhome passenger is the sole navigator (or there is only one sat-nav! :-)), is disabled, or has never driven abroad and is nervous at doing so. or, more likely, can't drive ... this is much more common than you may realise!!! 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ray Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Hi Janet, If you go back to page 72 you will find everything you want to know about A-Framing in Spain. The thread is called A-Frame fines. Dated18/11/2011. Thread started by Hymer 1942. There are 8 pages for you to read which are very imformative, including when we were fined !!! Regards Jean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hi The old saying 'failing to plan is planning to fail.' A framing is unlawful in Spain. That is a fact. Anyone who is prepared to take the chance of not being stopped and fined should have a plan 'B'. If the motorhome does not have a second driver prepared to drive then you have a problem. The police approach would seem to be to first ignore the practice. The next phase is to warn (or fine) and suggest the car is uncoupled and driven under it's own power. The final phase seems to be fine. If you don't do anything then another fine until eventually the message gets home. If you are happy to break the law then be happy to take the punishment. The alternative is to comply with the law of the land. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Still don't understand some people, when in Spain obey the Spanish law ??? These people have no more right to tow with an A frame in Spain, than a German has to drive at 130 mph on UK motorways because (s)he is allowed to do so in Germany. or am I missing the point :D Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 tonyishuk - 2013-01-19 4:52 PM Still don't understand some people, when in Spain obey the Spanish law ??? These people have no more right to tow with an A frame in Spain, than a German has to drive at 130 mph on UK motorways because (s)he is allowed to do so in Germany. or am I missing the point :D Rgds It's a condition known as " ostrich syndrome " I believe. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-01-17 6:05 PM Or what might be much more problematic: being required to uncouple the car, and drive it separately. For some, this could present real problems: where, for example, the motorhome passenger is the sole navigator (or there is only one sat-nav! :-)), is disabled, or has never driven abroad and is nervous at doing so. or indeed is Disabled and cannot drive anyway, (and the car is taken to provide mobility for the disabled person). as would be our case. Ray Guess we'll give Spain a miss. And Please don't suggest a trailer ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-01-20 2:54 PM Brian Kirby - 2013-01-17 6:05 PM Or what might be much more problematic: being required to uncouple the car, and drive it separately. For some, this could present real problems: where, for example, the motorhome passenger is the sole navigator (or there is only one sat-nav! :-)), is disabled, or has never driven abroad and is nervous at doing so. or indeed is Disabled and cannot drive anyway, (and the car is taken to provide mobility for the disabled person). as would be our case. Ray Guess we'll give Spain a miss. And Please don't suggest a trailer ! So to be legal how else would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-01-20 2:59 PM Guess we'll give Spain a miss. And Please don't suggest a trailer ! So to be legal how else would you? As i said, give Spain a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Does that also mean you will give France a miss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-01-20 3:17 PM sshortcircuit - 2013-01-20 2:59 PM Guess we'll give Spain a miss. And Please don't suggest a trailer ! So to be legal how else would you? As i said, give Spain a miss. Or go to a car and caravan, Makes more sense, as you are towing anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Just bought a new Motorhome, why go to a Caravan, an A-frame is NOT like towing a caravan, and i have done both. I'll wait until they are legal and get type approval think it's 2014 isn't it ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I was under the impression that 2014 was when changes to trailer-braking regulations would outlaw the marketing of overrun-braked A-frames of the type that, historically, have been employed by most UK motorcaravanners to tow cars. To the best of my knowledge there's nothing (regulation, type approval, heavenly intervention, etc.) in the foreseeable future that will alter the existing position regarding the legality (or otherwise) of the practice, either in the UK or abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The latest A frames do not rely on overrun braking Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-01-20 5:43 PM Just bought a new Motorhome, why go to a Caravan, an A-frame is NOT like towing a caravan, and i have done both. I'll wait until they are legal and get type approval think it's 2014 isn't it ? Ray I'm intrigued as to what makes you think A frames may ever acchieve type approval? In fact the opposite is more likely to be the case in that the installation of an A frame's connection points to the front of a car will void its type approval. The only surprise to me is that this hasn't been picked up yet by VOSA/DVLA or whoever is responsible for that area of legislation. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 True Brian, but AFAIK, the braking arrangements presently on offer are unlikely to meet the 2014 requirement, because the last draft I saw required ABS to be active on the trailer where it is fitted. None of the current A-frame braking mechanisms can achieve that, and I rather doubt it can be technically achieved. In fact, to my knowledge, none of the current braking mechanisms have been able to demonstrate that they can meet the current minimum trailer braking requirement. The American Brake Buddy is often cited as complying with American requirements, which in fact vary state by state. To achieve this, it is equipped with a manual adjustment knob. Since the requirements are for a minimum braking efficiency, one wonders why they don't simply opt for the worst case, on the basis that this would by definition meet all lower requirements. My conclusion, right or wrong, is that the knob is really window dressing to impress state highway patrol officers! To make modern car brakes work satisfactorily, the vacuum servo must be operating. There is an auxiliary electric vacuum pump that can be fitted to drive this, which might even be sufficient in conjunction with a carefully adjusted overrun mechanism. I have no idea what view an insurance company might take of an ancillary pump being added to the brake servo mechanism, but come 2014, unless the proposed legislation is altered from the draft I have seen (on the Europa website), I really can't see how the ABS electronics can be maintained live while towing. Such interventions seem to me undesirable in the days of extensive electronics in vehicles, because they will not have been foreseen by the designers, so any alterations may well have very strange unintended consequences. If wanting to A-frame beyond 2014, I think it may be necessary to get a car with no brake servo, and absolutely no electronics. Possible, but it will be an older vehicle. However, the prohibition on A-frame use is not braking related, it relates to the unauthorised flat towing of one road vehicle by another, in countries where only authorised vehicles may do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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