edison Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Hello all, first time poster here....... Thinking about getting a small camper and the Fifers look good but I'm wondering how long I could realistically stay off-hookup without driving any significant distance in view of the compressor fridge. The spec. says its 12v equipment is an 85l compressor fridge and 10 x 1w LED lights. Heating & hot water is diesel, but would of course take 12v to power the fan and pump. I would probably use a TV/radio maybe for 2 hours a day max - could easily do without if needs be. The van has a 230Ah leisure battery and 95W solar panel. I'd appreciate anyone's experience of the Fifer or similar.regarding off mains useage as I am hoping to be able to avoid big sites as much as possible and make full use of the small 5 van sites that often have no EHU. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 welcome! thats is a big battery anyway...I always have 2 but looks like yo have that capacity with just the one...what does the manafacturer say? Maybe squeeze another battery in, problem being informed opinion seems to be 2 identical capacity batteries and 2 x230 Ah maybe OTT *-) you will probably be OK just live with it for a while and see how it goes... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 With a 230AH battery and 95 Watt panel you should be fine for most of the year. If camping in the depths of winter you may struggle after a couple of days. Judge the battery capacity is in Amp Hours (AH) not Watts (W), the solar panel is rated in Watts. I know you don't like being corrected but it is important that we use the correct units when discussing batteries, solar panels and the use thereof. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 The fridge will probably use around 30 ah over 24 hours really need to know the made and model, depending on use of heater & hot water at a guess 10-20 ah per evening say average of 15 that's 45 ah per day. You should get 3 days without discharging the battery far enough to shorten it's life, July & August probably get 4 days. From May through to September the solar panel may give an average of 20 ah a day on a clear day, if it raining or very overcast wave goodbye to any output. So you should be able to last 4 - 5 days with a reasonable amount of sun & if not using the heating a couple of days longer and in an emergency you have a couple of days reserve in the battery but you don't want to run it flat too many time as it will shorten the life and if it is a single 230ah battery it will be b***dy expensive to replace an may be difficult to obtain at short notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Diesel heating takes a huge surge of current to fire it up - about 20 amps for only a few seconds as I recall then just a few amps to run - but it knocks hell out of your batteries and it won't take many cold nights when it fires up several times during the dark hours before the voltage under load - not the voltage at rest - drops too far for it to fire up. Add that to the fridge and possibly long hours of evening TV and you can see why they fitted 230 ah of leisure batteries - which is highly commendable and much more than most converters will ever do for their 'valued' customers! Not a great problem as long as you are aware of it just don't expect much more than a weekend in very cold winter times. I suspect that in less cold spring and autumn time you will get several days worth before you need a charge although leaving the hot water on all the time will take it's toll. Bear in mind that unless you have a battery to battery charger to speed up the charge time from the engine recharging some 100 ah of depleted leisure batteries will take around 10 hours of driving because I doubt the system will allow more than around 10 amps through from the alternator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I made my comments based on practical and personal experience as my own camper has 330AH of batteries, a 100 litre compressor fridge and a 155 Watt solar panel. Using the satellite TV for several hours per night we can run indefinitely in summer, almost indefinitely in spring and autumn and typically for a couple of days in mid winter before the battery level is getting critical. We run all LED lighting and a Propex space heater which is slightly less greedy on 12 volts than diesel fired units typically. The overall power consumption of the heater will depend on which one you have, Eberspachers will cylce on/off to maintain temperature but Webasto units will adjust the heat output to the required temperature virtually Watt by Watt as long as it is above the minimum power level meaning that it will not shut down nd restart but cut the heat output to a tickover level to give much smoother temperature control. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-01-24 6:19 PM Maybe squeeze another battery in, problem being informed opinion seems to be 2 identical capacity batteries and 2 x230 Ah maybe OTT *-) you will probably be OK just live with it for a while and see how it goes... :-D I don't think you could add another battery as the leisure battery on a Fifer is in the floor under a hatch in the middle of the living area. We looked at one and would seriously consider if we won the lottery but even though we don't like compressor fridges due to power consumption we would consider this one with that battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 East Neuk fits a diesel-fuelled Webasto Thermo Top C-300 system to their motorhomes. This heats air and water and (on larger Fifer models) includes a 230V capability. Webasto states a power consumption of 22 Watts (Partial load) to 32 Watts (Full Load) though, as Tracker warns, there will be a heavy short-term power demand during the ignition phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 In the cold weather why not switch the fridge off and stick a cool box outside? That would rid you of the major power drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I bought an ENC Fifer "M" last April. We did about 85 nights in it last year. Of those many were on sites with hook up but we did spend quite a few night on Aires in France. Bear in mind that this was in the Spring/Summer where the solar panel was at its best and heavy demands on heating were not made. Additionally we are not great telly watchers. Consequently our experience may not be comparable with what you propose to do. Certainly based on our useage we were comfortably able to survive for three days without EHU and could probably have managed 4 or 5. THe battery seems to recover fast from the alternator. The heating has a very high output (and the area heated is small) consequently even on cold Autumn mornings the heater does not need to run for long. It also quickly heats up water. We are still on our first 3.9Kg propane bottle because it is only used for cooking (we elected to dispense with the oven to get much better storage for pots and pans etc) and we find the M has plenty storage for an 8 week trip albeit we travel relatively light. I am very pleased with and proud of my vehicle and we have been entirely happy with the buying experience and service with ENC. There have been minor snagging items on the conversion which have been quickly cheerfully and efficiently fixed. There is a separate post about a base vehicle problem but again ENC have been faultless in dealing with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edison Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 HymerVan - 2013-01-25 10:08 AM I bought an ENC Fifer "M" last April. We did about 85 nights in it last year. Of those many were on sites with hook up but we did spend quite a few night on Aires in France. Bear in mind that this was in the Spring/Summer where the solar panel was at its best and heavy demands on heating were not made. Additionally we are not great telly watchers. Consequently our experience may not be comparable with what you propose to do. Certainly based on our useage we were comfortably able to survive for three days without EHU and could probably have managed 4 or 5. THe battery seems to recover fast from the alternator. The heating has a very high output (and the area heated is small) consequently even on cold Autumn mornings the heater does not need to run for long. It also quickly heats up water. We are still on our first 3.9Kg propane bottle because it is only used for cooking (we elected to dispense with the oven to get much better storage for pots and pans etc) and we find the M has plenty storage for an 8 week trip albeit we travel relatively light. I am very pleased with and proud of my vehicle and we have been entirely happy with the buying experience and service with ENC. There have been minor snagging items on the conversion which have been quickly cheerfully and efficiently fixed. There is a separate post about a base vehicle problem but again ENC have been faultless in dealing with that. Crickey, thanks so much for everyone's input - what a helpful bunch you are on this Forum! HymerVan, your comments about the Fifer and ENC are reassuring. I do like the look of them a lot, and the conversion quality seems first class. I am a a bit disappointed about the off mains performance as I was hoping I might last for the best part of a week, but from what everyone says it is the heater that is real killer (plus the fridge, of course) Still, everything with a camper is a compromise ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 personally I prefer a gas reliant set up (cook/fridge/truma heating) with 2x11kg refillable gas bottles, coupled with 2 leisure battery's, all you will need in most situations in a panel van or still add a solar panel if need must. Should manage of grid for a week at least.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The compressor fridge and diesel heating are an inherent part of the design philosophy of the Fifer. The good sized solar panel and huge leisure battery (both of which are standard) should more than balance up the consumption for the fridge. A compressor fridge is inherently more reliable and virtually maintenance free. Cheaper to replace as well in the unlikely event you needed to. Dave Newells figures are more optimistic than mine and he may be right. I worry about some designs which have a compressor fridge and no solar coupled with a small leisure battery e.g. Autocruize Jazz. Don't think it would go long without EHU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 My main reservation is with the reliability of diesel heating, fitted externally open to the elements ,,,, German dealer we use who sells hundreds of panel vans told me to avoid due to reliability and difficulty getting anything resolved with warranty issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edison Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Once again, thanks to all for helpful comments. I have decided to go for it, and have a Fifer Touring S on order - smaller than your vans, but small can be beautiful! All I've got to do now is be patient , delivery won't be until mid July. For anyone interested ENC now offer the Fifers on a Fiat Ducato base as an alternative to the Citroen Relay that was the only option previously. Much the same of course, but the Fiat gives the option of the 130 bhp engine for an extra £600 over the base price for the 110 bhp engine compared with £1200 extra on the Citroen, and also the ComfortMatic gearbox option for a further £1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Best of luck with your new Fifer I hope you will have many happy miles in it. If I can help you with anything PM me. Regards Laurence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisden Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Hi Further to the informed post from Hymer man I also have a ENC Fifer L and have found no problems what so ever with the set up and often last well over the week off site. I was away in Northan France last month off site for 6 days in sub zero conditions. No loss of anything. But one point seems to be missed by everyone and ENC seem unwilling to also tell you about it either. That is that a Amperor Power Interrogator is fitted which fools the charging system into pushing full output into the leisure battery regardless of the the charge state of the main battery. Wandered round the NEC last week and came away with the sound belife that ENC are fantastic value and build quality when the others are looked at. Yes lots of good conversions out there but none seem to have the build quality and attention to detail that Dave and Daren offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 The reference to a power interrogator fooled me. I think it is actually a Power Integrator insofar as it integrates power inputs from the solar and the alternator. See http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/c-DC_power_supplies/PowerS-PI.html If it does what it claims its a pretty smart device because it also maximizes the useable output from the solar by dropping the voltage which would otherwise be regulated out. This also explains why the alternator charges the leisure battery so well. I was concerned by the implication in your post that this was all at the expense of charging the vehicle battery but that appears not to be the case and is not what I have found in use. Perhaps another example of how innovative and lateral thinking the boys at Anstruther are. Finally you have solved a mystery. Last year Van Bitz installed an alarm on my Van and were also instructed to instal a battery master (which allows the leisure battery to charge the vehicle battery if it detects a pre-defined voltage difference between the two). Van Bitz were mystified because their technician could not detect a significant voltage difference. Although he could not explain why he concluded (as we can now see correctly) that there was no point in fitting the battery master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisden Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 """The reference to a power interrogator fooled me""" Spell Checker. Sorry. Yes and why ENC are so reticent about this I have no idea. I was on the Vantage stand last week at the NEC (the only other company I would buy from but still not ENC standards IMO) and they also were unaware of it. It's a bit of kit that boats have used for years but made by I think Sterling in that case for loads more money. I find it recharges my 180Amp Hr battery in a few hours driving. Its mounted on the shower room wall back against the offside wall. Only problem is if ? it trips you can not see the warning light even with the bed box open. Also the reset button is very out of the way as well. May be wise to download a set of the instruction on the Ampoeror site for reference. I find that in storage alongside my home in winter a 2 weekly mains charge keeps the main & leisure battery up to 13 while on solar its about 12.6. While on site with 12 volt fridge and heating running it can drop to a shown 11.5 on turning off the heating it jumps straight back up to 12+ Do you turn off the battery selector to the centre no battery in storage or leave it on leisure? http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/r-power-resources/z-reference-Power_PI_battery_charger_MPPT.html On another subject being the only other ENC owner I have come across, how is the flush on the loo? Dometic at the NEC seem to think that as its off the pump its not as full as if from a header tank? Regards Peter ----- Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Curtisden - 2013-03-05 9:31 AM Do you turn off the battery selector to the centre no battery in storage or leave it on leisure? http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/r-power-resources/z-reference-Power_PI_battery_charger_MPPT.html Hi Peter, an interesting product. The graphics/diagrams don't show any EHU connection, so I'm assuming that it has no role unless you have a solar panel (or in the case of a narrow boat, a wind turbine? So, parked on my drive and connected to the mains in my garage over winter, it would have no effect? alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 On the question of the quality of the loo flush I cannot compare with Vans which have a header tank as I have never owned one. I can see that they might flush better however the pressure and volume of water is always perfectly adequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisden Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 """Hi Peter, an interesting product. The graphics/diagrams don't show any EHU connection, so I'm assuming that it has no role unless you have a solar panel (or in the case of a narrow boat, a wind turbine? So, parked on my drive and connected to the mains in my garage over winter, it would have no effect? alan b""" As I understand it its benefit is on the whole while driving and also with the ability to control and feed 2 extra sources of green energy to the system. But not on mains hook up as that will over ride the lot? peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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