Weights - MAM with PLG or PHGV via SvTech

[Tracker]

 

Having completed this exercise and upgraded from 3500kg to 3850kg I set out below how it is done and have to say that it has proven to be remarkably easy.

 

1. Weigh your van fully laden in maximum weight holiday trim including water, diesel, gas, and the wife and obtain each axle weight and the total weight GVW.

 

2 Open the bonnet and check the axle weight limits plate on the front cross member.

 

3 If you are over that weight contact Steve at SvTech by email or phone for advice.

 

4 Follow that advice and fit whatever you need to fit - or make the van lighter - or sell it.

 

5 Print, fill in, and post the application form that SvTech will email you, together with your payment of £288 (may differ according to needs)

 

6 After about a week a new plastic adhesive plate arrives by post together with all paperwork needed by the DVLA and detailed instructions.

 

7 Take all the paperwork asked for to the nearest DVLA office (whilst they still exist) and they will exchange the tax disc (same expiry date as the old disc) for the new class, authorise a refund if one is due or take payment if applicable.

 

For some unknown reason they would not exchange for a 12 month disc and they may struggle as they do not do this very often, but usually someone there knows what to do - apparently!

 

It is easy peasy and nothing to be daunted by and in my view worth the cost for the peace of mind?

 

 

 

 

This is the original response from Steve Heap at SvTech when I first asked - it - or may not be of help?

 

 

 

We have a couple of uprate options we can offer on your vehicle.

The first option, to uprate to 3700kg, does not require any mechanical changes and the axle weights remain unchanged at 1850kg, 2000kg.

 

The second uprate option is to take the gross weight to 3850kg. This uprate requires you have rear axle air assisted suspension fit.

 

The initial uprate to 3850kg would again leave the axle weights unchanged, however you could, with a tyre change increase the rear axle to 2240kg.

 

Your current tyre size being a 215/75R15 would need changing to a 225/75R15 (min load index 112). This can be achieved on the existing rim size.

 

Before choosing any of the above uprate options, I would first recommend you have your motorhome weighed and check the individual axle loadings.

 

Once you have these figures, you will be able to see which uprate option best covers your requirement.

 

If choosing the second option you would need to source the air assist system and supply evidence of this having been fit. (suppliers can be provided if required). Similarly if you wish to uprate the rear axle weight to 2240kg, you will need to supply evidence of the new tyres fit. These only need changing to the rear, but convenience of the spare wheel would be to change them all.

 

The cost for us to cover the uprate is £240+VAT and includes the new plate for the vehicle and the necessary paperwork to allow you to get the registration document changed.

 

As the gross weight will be going above 3500kg, the taxation class will change from PLG to PHGV. This change will need making at your nearest DVLA office, who will supply you with a new tax disc on the day.

 

Unfortunately we cannot make the change to the logbook and deal with DVLA, as this must be carried out by the registered keeper.

 

You will received a full instruction sheet detailing the changes to be made on the logbook along with the necessary forms to allow you to change the tax class.

 

The important things to bear in mind when uprating above 3500kg are as follows:

 

Going above 3500kg requires a C1 category Licence holder to drive.

Drivers having passed their test prior to 1997 usually have this as standard.

Speed limits in Europe are lower for Motorhomes over 3500kg.

You must inform your insurance company of the uprate (previous customers have not experienced an increase)

The MOT class for Motorhomes/Motor Caravan is Class 4

[lennyhb]

Tracker - 2013-02-05 4:18 PM

 

 

2 Open the bonnet and check the axle weight limits plate on the front cross member.

 

3 If you are over that weight contact Steve at SvTech by email or phone for advice.

 

 

Err! the converters plate overrides the one under the bonnet.

[Tracker]

lennyhb - 2013-02-05 4:26 PM

 

Tracker - 2013-02-05 4:18 PM

 

 

2 Open the bonnet and check the axle weight limits plate on the front cross member.

 

3 If you are over that weight contact Steve at SvTech by email or phone for advice.

 

 

Err! the converters plate overrides the one under the bonnet.

 

Yes - but every converters plate that I have seen are also under the bonnet and common sense applies to know which one to trust - surely?

 

I suppose some converters might choose to stick it somewhere else - heaven knows how some converter's logic works anyway!

 

If all else fails - RTFI !

[Tracker]

Should have added - I contacted my insurers (Comfort) to advise them and there is not extra premium charge - but they did slap me with a one off £15 'admin charge' - the rotten burgerers!!

[kelly58]

I did the same to upgrade from 3300kgs to 3500kgs and it could not have been simpler I stuck the new weight sticker on inside passenger door pillar below the existing one.

[PJay]

I guess you will have to have a medical,to be able to drive this van, when you get to 70?

 

PJay

[Tracker]

PJay - 2013-02-05 4:56 PM

 

I guess you will have to have a medical,to be able to drive this van, when you get to 70?

 

PJay

 

Yes - or sell it - or replate it back down to 3500kg and leave some clutter at home!

[theoldnick]

Hi guys some guidance if you can on my weight problem I mean the motorhomes weight problem

 

My next birthday is my 70th so trying to work out what my problems are.

 

I have a swift kontiki about 7yeras old. its 24ft 6inch by 7ft 8inch wide and 10ft high

 

Under the bonnet there are two aluminium plate with the name Alko Kober

 

One has 1-------1850kg

 

2------2300kg

 

the other plate only has the numbers 1 2 3 4 but no other writing or numbers.

 

do I add these two numbers together to get the weight of the vehicle (4150Kg) and what is the implications for my driving license

 

Ta

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Mornin'..

 

Those will be you max axle weights(1-front,2-rear) and adding both the axle weights together will(should/usually?) give slightly more than your "gross vehicle weight"(..to allow some "flexiblity" when loading).

 

But strange it hasn't got the gross vehicle weight and the gross train weight though....

(..check on your V5)

 

I gather,that once 70 is reached,to drive over 3500kg,an annual 100odd quid medical is involved..

 

 

...But someone will be along with a more detailed response soon I'm sure....

 

 

;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

theoldnick - 2013-02-07 8:06 AM

 

Hi guys some guidance if you can on my weight problem I mean the motorhomes weight problem

 

My next birthday is my 70th so trying to work out what my problems are.

 

I have a swift kontiki about 7yeras old. its 24ft 6inch by 7ft 8inch wide and 10ft high

 

Under the bonnet there are two aluminium plate with the name Alko Kober

 

One has 1-------1850kg

 

2------2300kg

 

the other plate only has the numbers 1 2 3 4 but no other writing or numbers.

 

do I add these two numbers together to get the weight of the vehicle (4150Kg) and what is the implications for my driving license

 

Ta

 

 

 

A 7-year-old motorhome would have been built around 2005, and the length-dimension you've provided suggests your Swift is a Kon-Tiki 645, 655 or 665.

 

As far as I'm aware all Kon-Tikis have been built using an Al-Ko rear chassis and the Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of your vehicle will almost certainly have originally been 3850kg.

 

I don't know why your Kon-Tiki has two Al-Ko data-plates but (as pepe63 advises) the 1----1850kg and 2----2300kg figures relate to the maximum permitted axle-loadings for, respectively, the front and rear axle of your motorhome. There's an example of a recent Al-Ko data-plate here:

 

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/how-to-calculate-your-motorhome’s-safe-weight-limits-4104/

 

The format of an Al-Ko data-plate was different for older motorhomes, but the information provided was normally as shown in the example. Despite Tracker's confidence that motorhome data-plates will usually be under the vehicle's bonnet, it's far from uncommon for them to be elsewhere. I've seen them on cab door-pillars and in the foot-well of entrance steps. If you examine your motorhome carefully, you will quite likely find a Fiat data-plate with weight information on it and a Swift data-plate too.

 

Your motorhome's V5C registration document ('log book') will indicate what Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) class the vehicle is in. Motorhomes fall into 2 classes - PLG (Private or Light Goods) for motorhomes with a MAM up to 3500kg, or PHGV (Private Heavy Goods Vehicle) for motorhomes with a MAM over 3500kg.

 

Assuming that your Kon-Tiki has a MAM of 3850kg, it should be classed as PHGV and the current VED 12-month fee is £165. To legally drive a PHGV vehicle requires a driving-licence C1 entitlement, which you probably have (check your driving licence). The C1 entitlement will (as pepe63 says) automatically be lost at age-70 unless a medical examination is taken and passed.

 

There is a (small) possibility that your Kon-Tiki is registered in the PLG VED class (up to 3500kg MAM) for which the current VED 12-month fee would be £220.

 

If your Kon-Tiki were registered in the PLG VED class because a previous owner has had the MAM 'down-plated' from 3850kg to 3500kg, this should be evident from on its V5C document and one might expect to see a data-plate somewhere on your motorhome showing that its MAM is 3500kg. A PLG vehicle can legally be driven on a "B" driving-licence entitlement, that you will have and that is not lost at age-70.

 

Although 'down-plating' a motorhome to 3500kg does happen (normally because an owner is reaching 70 and wants to avoid the medical examination needed to retain the C1 entitlement), the effect can be that the motorhome ends up with inadequate payload.

[theoldnick]

thanks for the response

 

the registration certificate indicates private light goods (PLG)

 

It is a ducato maxi D MWB body type

 

as you indicate it is 645 vogue

 

I have had it new from 04/03/2006 so no weight changes carried out

 

there are no weight indications filled in on the V5 C document

 

It is in for MOT today, but when I get it back I will look for more weight identification plates

 

nothings simple any more

 

 

RonB

[Derek Uzzell]

theoldnick - 2013-02-07 2:44 PM

 

thanks for the response

 

the registration certificate indicates private light goods (PLG)

 

It is a ducato maxi D MWB body type

 

as you indicate it is 645 vogue

 

I have had it new from 04/03/2006 so no weight changes carried out

 

there are no weight indications filled in on the V5 C document

 

It is in for MOT today, but when I get it back I will look for more weight identification plates

 

nothings simple any more

 

 

RonB

 

It would appear that your Kon-Tiki was registered in the wrong VED class when you bought it in 2006.

 

This is a link to Swift's 2006 motorhome handbook (which I would have thought you have)

 

http://tinyurl.com/afs9hgc

 

Page 14 of the handbook details "Kon-Tiki Towing Capabilities" and includes maximum-weight data.

 

For a Kon-Tiki 645 the significant data are:

 

MTPLM - 4000kg

Gross train weight - 5500kg

Permissible front-axle load - 1850kg

Permissible rear-axle load - 2300kg

 

(MTPLM = Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass = MAM)

 

Somewhere on your motorhome you should expect to find a data-plate carrying (in descending order) the weights 4000kg, 5500kg, 1850kg and 2300kg.

 

On Page 10 of the Swift handbook is the standard specification of a 2006 Kon-Tiki 645.

 

It will be noted that, besides having an MTPLM of 4000kg, a Kon-Tiki 645 had a Mass in Running Order (MRO) of 3577kg and a Maximum User Payload of 423kg. The User Payload figure will be eroded by the weight of any passengers carried, luggage and accesories (awning, bike-rack, cycles, etc.)

 

A Maximum User Payload of 423kg should be adequate for a Kon-Tiki 645 with an MTPLM of 4000kg, but it should be plain that, if the MTPLM were 'down-plated' by 500kg to 3500kg (when the motorhome would become eligilble to be registered in the PLG VED class and be legally driven on a "B" driving-licence entitlement) there would be no User Payload remaining. In fact, the MTPLM would then be less than Swift's quoted 3577kg MRO.

 

It's sometimes possible to 'down-plate' a PHGV motorhome's MTPLM to 3500kg and still operate it legally by making weight savings (eg. always emptying the water tanks before the vehicle is to be driven), but I don't think there's much chance of doing this with your motorhome. (The only sure way of establishing how heavy your motorhome is when fully loaded would be to weigh it. You'd then be able to decide whether 'down-plating' was a realistic possibility.) In 2005 Kon-Tikis all had an MTPLM of 3850kg but, for 2006, the MTPLM of '3-passenger' Kon-Tikis was raised from 3850kg to 4000kg to augment the User Payload. A Kon-Tiki 645 is a large luxurious vehicle and such motorhomes aren't lightweights.

 

It's relatively rare for motorhomes that should be registered in the PHGV VED class to be wrongly registered in the PLG class when they are initially sold, but it does happen. In your case, since 2006 you've been paying more VED than you've needed to but, as long as everybody driving your motorhome has had a C1 driving-licence entitlement, as far as I'm concerned there's been no great illegality. (Anyway - illegality or not - you've presumably 'got away with it' since 2006!)

 

As your Kon-Tiki is legitimately a PHGV vehicle, its VED class should be amended appropriately, and doing so will have driving-licence implications when you reach 70. Currently you are driving a wrongly registered 'over-3500kg' vehicle, but you've (probably) got the C1 entitlement allowing you to do this legally.

 

If you forgo your C1 entitlement when you reach 70 and continue to drive your motorhome with its present PLG VED class unchanged, you'd be driving a wrongly registered 'over-3500kg' vehicle and you would not have the C1 driving-licence entitlement to drive a PHGV vehicle. Doing this would undoubtedly invalidate your motor insurance policy.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Just to add to what Derek says above, it might be wise to pursue this with some speed. I accept that you have been driving the vehicle for some years past but, unless you can find the Fiat plate, or can find the numbers on it (they may be quite faint), you could have quite a problem if pulled into a roadside weight check.

 

As Derek points out, the vehicle is liable to exceed the 3,500kg MAM limit even when empty, and may exceed even the 3,850kg MAM limit when laden, unless you have checked it at a weighbridge. It is a large, heavy, motorhome with a not excessive payload that is liable already to have been reduced by added options. I guess you could try contacting Swift with the VIN to see if they can help from archived records that may (should!) show what the plated weights should be.

 

Fiat will probably only be able to help from the VIN insofar as their record will presumably record only 1 and 4, being front axle maximum load (which is unlikely to have been changed during conversion) and the gross train weight. (I think that at the time these units were delivered by Fiat with no chassis rear of the cab, usually bolted together back-to-back, as pairs. Earlier, the full cab plus chassis was delivered, and the converter had to cut the rear portion away to graft on the AlKo rear chassis extension.)

 

The AlKo plate should therefore record the value for 2 and 3, the maximum permissible rear axle load, and the revised vehicle MAM. From what you say, it sounds as though something went radically wrong when Swift re-plated your van, or you have not yet found the Fiat plate. Even so, the AlKo plate seems to be wrong in having re-recorded the front axle maximum (presumed unaltered) but not the MAM. Good luck with your hunt!

[Derek Uzzell]

Ron took delivery of his Kon-Tiki 645 on 4 March 2006. This leaves two realistic possibilities - the vehicle is either a 2006 model (most likely) or it might be a 2005 model that's been waiting for a buyer for some time.

 

Swift's technical handbooks can be downloaded and I quoted previously the weight-related 2006 handbook data for a Kon-Tiki 645. The 2005 handbook can be viewed here http://tinyurl.com/a3f5abl

 

It will be seen that two versions of the 645 were offered for the 2005 model-year. One had a 4000kg MTPLM chassis (with the weight-related data I quoted earlier), while the other was based on a 3850kg MTPLM chassis with the following weight-related data:

 

MTPLM - 3850kg

Gross train weight - 5500kg

Permissible front-axle load - 1850kg

Permissible rear-axle load - 2120kg

 

Ron has provided 1850kg and 2300kg Al-Ko figures that clearly apply to axle-loadings, so there's no doubt that the MTPLM for his motorhome should be 4000kg, whether it's a 2006 model or a 2005 one.

 

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure 'back-to-back' cab units only began to be supplied after the X250 range was introduced.

 

http://www.graysgarage.co.uk/new_fiat_vans.php#back

[tonyishuk]

Does not add much to the debate, but we had a 2005 Swift 645 plated at 3850 kg.

 

Quite a nice conversion, but we gave up trying to get warranty work out of Swift,

 

The factory operated on a system best described as "headless chickens, being chased by foxes!!" Even our dealer was seen to be sitting in the corner crying to himself about Swifts management expertise.

 

So anything could have happen regarding the plating of the vehicle.

 

Rgds

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-08 7:00 PM....................Ron has provided 1850kg and 2300kg Al-Ko figures that clearly apply to axle-loadings, so there's no doubt that the MTPLM for his motorhome should be 4000kg, whether it's a 2006 model or a 2005 one.

 

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure 'back-to-back' cab units only began to be supplied after the X250 range was introduced..........................

Which still leaves his actual MAM undefined - unless he can find the relevant Fiat plate. I can't understand why the AlKo plate would reiterate the front axle load and omit the MAM. There must, surely, have been an error in making up the plate. It would be nice to think Swift, as converter, retain records; if for no other reason, for their own protection. Lets hope so, as it seems Ron may otherwise have a bit of a hill to climb to satisfy DVLA on the need to change the V5C.

 

I thought I had seen face-lifted second generation cabs back to back in a French mag (LMCC), but have recently been reprimanded for memory faults, so I'll defer to yours! :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

The SVTech website carries a copy of this July 2006 Practical Motorhome article

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/articles/watchingyourweight.pdf

 

The print-quality is poor, but the first photo shows what one might anticipate (prior to motorhome Type Approval) when an Al-Ko replacement rear chassis has been used - two data plates, with (in this instance) the Al-Ko plate alongside the base-vehicle manufacturer's original plate. The data on the Al-Ko plate tallies with the normal weight maxima of a UK-marketed X244 Ducato 18 "Maxi" chassis.

 

In the "Keeping within the law" section the article advises that a motorhome's MAM appears on the registration document as 'revenue weight'. Ron reports that there are no weight-data on his Kon-Tiki's V5C and that's equally true for my Hobby.

 

When a motorhome is first UK-registered a 'revenue weight' datum only needs to be provided if the motorhome's MAM exceeds 3500kg. My Hobby has a 3500kg MAM so there was no requirement to provide the DVLA with a 'revenue weight', hence my Hobby's V5C does not specify the motorhome's MAM.

 

Ron's Kon-Tiki has a Swift-quoted MAM of 4000kg and that figure should have been provided to the DVLA as the vehicle's 'revenue weight' when the motorhome was first UK-registered. If that had happened, one might have expected the 4000kg weight to appear on the vehicle's V5C (in "(Y)" in Section 4) and, with any luck, the motorhome would then have been correctly VED-classed as PHGV.

 

When wrong VED-classification has been discussed before on this forum, it's become evident that there's no certainty that a motorhome's MAM will be present on its V5C whether the vehicle is VED-classed as PLG or PHGV.

 

[Brian Kirby]

I note the article refers to an AlKo re-plating service. If that is still available and Swift can't help, I wonder if AlKo might be able to. Might they have retained data from 2005/6 on chassis modifications they carried out, assuming Swift didn't do their own?

[Derek Uzzell]

There seems to be little point in speculating on what options are available until Ron has checked what data-plates his Kon-Tiki carries. There may well be another data-plate somewhere with all the weight-related information that one might normally expect to see.

 

It seems to be being argued that Ron's Kon-Tiki has been 'wrongly' plated, but the Al-Ko plates he has mentioned may be how Kon-Tikis were plated in 2006.

 

If it transpires that the 1850kg/2300kg figures (that are plainly axle-loadings) are the only weight-related data on the vehicle, then Swift and/or Al-Ko may well need to be approached. If there's another plate somewhere that indicates

 

MTPLM - 4000kg

GTW - 5500kg

Front-axle load - 1850kg

Rear-axle load - 2300kg

 

then that plate should be sufficient to allow Ron's Kon-Tiki's VED class to be corrected.

 

 

 

[lancepar]

On the same theme.

This is something I keep meaning to do but have not done yet.

Up-rating our MH back to its supplied gvw of 3850kg.

It is on the Maxi Chassis which was an option when made (16” wheels etc) and confirmed as such verbally by Autotrail recently.

A Fiat/Autotrail VR Ltd Camping Car Package 057 sticker is on the bonnet slam plate.

However the V5c states 3500kg gvw and is therefore subject to the higher RFL.

So someone in its past life has de-rated it or it was registered incorrectly in the first place, this is not a concern to me by the way.

We both meet the criteria for driving a 3.85t M/H, so I should get my finger out and get it done – yes.

 

Cheers

Lance

B-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Lance..

 

Just my opinions but if you are going to do this,I'd say to get as much "official" documentation from Autotrail before you even think about contacting DVLA(..who I found to be totally clueless!)

 

When we bought our van(used),although it was sold to us as 3500kg(and entered as such on the V5c),after I'd bought it I found that carried a Triagno plate showing 3850kg(..which was beneificial because I was looking to "up plate" it anyway).

But unfortunately I had no documentation to back this up...and for several months, I was sent around in circles and generally messed about by the supplying dealer and DVLA.. *-)

 

I was fobbed off with much talk of "weighbridges" and "..just send some photos in mate and we'll change it..",through to."..you'll need to get a Design Weight Certificate issued..".

I had umpteen phone calls with and sent off several letters to,Swansea,along with several vists to our local DVLA office..who inturn sent us to our local Vosa test centre(..who then said "..a Design weight what!?.." 8-) )

 

It was only after I contacted Trigano in France,who then sent through an "attestation" certificate,showing that it was indeed designed to be both 3500 & 3850kg that DVLA would alter V5c..

 

So,don't risk any headaches and get Autotrail to supply the relevant paperwork first.. ;-)

 

 

[theoldnick]

kontiki weight

 

thanks again for your considerations and deliberations.

 

I have the motorhome back after passing its MOT and searched some more.

 

found a plate as you have described (should have noticed it previously)

 

it is marked exactly as you have described

 

4000

5500

1..... 1850

2..... 2300

 

So as you have indicated I have been driving with incorrect info on my V5 document but with the correct driving license.

 

So do you agree that I should phone the DVLA and discuss changing its registered class and accepting that I must get a medical to retain my c1 license

 

RonB

[lancepar]

pepe63 - 2013-02-10 11:47 AM

 

Lance..

 

So,don't risk any headaches and get Autotrail to supply the relevant paperwork first.. ;-)

 

 

Good call, will get to it.

Cheers

B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

theoldnick - 2013-02-10 3:57 PM

 

...So do you agree that I should phone the DVLA and discuss changing its registered class and accepting that I must get a medical to retain my c1 license

 

RonB

 

If you plan to keep driving your Kon-Tiki after you've reached 70, that's what you should do.

 

The alternative would be to replace your Kon-Tiki with a motorhome with an up-to-3500kg MAM. Then you wouldn't need the medical at 70.

[Derek Uzzell]

lancepar - 2013-02-10 11:01 AM

 

On the same theme.

This is something I keep meaning to do but have not done yet.

Up-rating our MH back to its supplied gvw of 3850kg.

It is on the Maxi Chassis which was an option when made (16” wheels etc) and confirmed as such verbally by Autotrail recently.

A Fiat/Autotrail VR Ltd Camping Car Package 057 sticker is on the bonnet slam plate.

However the V5c states 3500kg gvw and is therefore subject to the higher RFL.

So someone in its past life has de-rated it or it was registered incorrectly in the first place, this is not a concern to me by the way.

We both meet the criteria for driving a 3.85t M/H, so I should get my finger out and get it done – yes.

 

Cheers

Lance

B-)

 

Auto-Trail's 2004 and 2005 brochures indicate that the Cheyenne 635 was marketed as standard with a 3400kg MTPLM, with a "Special Order" option of having the the vehicle on a 3850kg 'Maxi' chassis.

 

A Ducato 18 Maxi chassis should normally carry a data-plate with MTPLM=3850kg, GTW=5200kg, Max. front-axle loading=1850kg and Max rear-axle loading=2120kg. If the data-plate on your Cheyenne matches that (and there's no other data-plate with different weight-data on it), then your Cheyenne's in the worng VED class and correcting this should be straightforward without involving Auto-Trail.

 

If the vehicle carries a data-plate showing lower weight-related data (eg. an MPTLM of 3500kg), then it's (probably) in the correct VED class and it's likely that a previous owner has 'down-plated' the vehicle. In this instance, getting the vehicle replated back to 3850kg MTPLM and the VED class changed to PHGV will essentially involve 'up-plating' and the process may well prove to be more complcated.