Weights - MAM with PLG or PHGV via SvTech

[lancepar]

Hi Derek,

 

This is the sticker under the bonnet which states the new 3.85t GVW and that the axle loading ratings have not changed.

 

Is this good or bad.

 

I can't say if there is another loading plate, I will have to go and have a look.

 

Lance

 

B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

I can't answer your "Good or bad?" question.

 

I note that the Camping-car Package 057 overall-weight upgrade is mentioned here:

 

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/tech-mech-general/27922-can-anyone-advise-us-please-weights.html

 

The motorhome being discussed appears to be a 2006 CI Mizar, and the owner says that the vehicle "was originally plated at 3500kg". On the thread's 2nd page it's revealed that (just like your Auto-Trail) the motorhome's V5C shows PLG as the VED class (this is despite the Mizar's V5C carrying a weight-datum of 3850kg).

 

Further down the thread's 2nd page 'alan' mentions that his 2006-built Cheyenne 696G had been upgraded by Auto-Trail from 3500kg to 3850kg, and further upgraded to 4100kg via SVTech.

 

If your motorhome carries a data-plate elsewhere with, say, MTPLM=3500kg, GTW=5200kg, Max. front-axle loading=1850kg and Max rear-axle loading=2120kg, presumably the Auto-Trail sticker would override the MTPLM=3500kg figure, increasing it to 3850kg. If MTPLM=3850kg were already on the data-plate, there would seem to be no need for the sticker.

 

All the evidence points to your motorhome being marketed by Auto-Trail with an MTPLM of 3850kg and, consequently, it should have been UK-registered originally with a VED class of PHGV.

 

To correct the VED class, it may be sufficient to take photos of your motorhome's data-plate (there's bound to be one somewhere) and Fiat/Auto-Trail sticker and take the photos, V5C, tax-disk, insurance certificate and MOT-test certificate to a DVLA local office. It would be a good idea to drive the motorhome to the DVLA office just in case it needs to be inspected.

 

I think the nearest DVLA office to you will be the Birmingham one:

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/contactus/localoffices/findnear/england/birmingham_local_office.aspx

 

and you'd be well advised to phone (Tel: 0300 790 6802) the DVLA first to check that the procedure I've just suggested is right. You need to emphasise that the alteration from PLG to PHGV is merely a V5C correction and that no changes to the vehicle's original weight-data have been made or are required.

 

You might want to mention to your insurance provider what you are doing, though I doubt they will be concerned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-12 8:26 AM

 

...To correct the VED class, it may be sufficient to take photos of your motorhome's data-plate (there's bound to be one somewhere) and Fiat/Auto-Trail sticker and take the photos, V5C, tax-disk, insurance certificate and MOT-test certificate to a DVLA local office. It would be a good idea to drive the motorhome to the DVLA office just in case it needs to be inspected.

 

I think the nearest DVLA office to you will be the Birmingham one:

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/contactus/localoffices/findnear/england/birmingham_local_office.aspx

 

and you'd be well advised to phone (Tel: 0300 790 6802) the DVLA first to check that the procedure I've just suggested is right. You need to emphasise that the alteration from PLG to PHGV is merely a V5C correction and that no changes to the vehicle's original weight-data have been made or are required.

 

 

Derek,with respect,if you notice my previous post,those were amongst some of the very actions that I undertook....and all were in vain..

 

- Numerous phone calls...

 

- Photographs of plate,vehicle and copies of documents sent to Swansea(on their and many other's advice),both email and hardcopy.Only for them to be returned and for them to retain the V5c !?.....

 

- Visits to local DVLA office with van and documents.....

 

- ...It was DVLA Swansea that also told me,amongst other things,that I should,

,Quote: "..just get it weighed and we'll just enter that on the V5C,as that will be your revenue weight.." ?! 8-)

 

- ...It was my local DVLA office that told me that I needed to obtain the "Design Weight Certificate" from Vosa!? .. to which the chaps at the Vosa test centre said that Swansea were "talking rubbish" and that I just was being "..fobbed off.." ! 8-)

 

Honestly,no matter how or when I contacted DVLA,be it phone calls or emails to Swansea or in-person visits to my local office,on each and every occasion I was given conflicting advice!

 

Now it may well be that I was just unlucky(because at the time,I was reading on forums of just how easy it all should be.. :-S

 

But it was only once I had obtained documentation from the converter(Trigano in France, in my case),that it finally got sorted.

 

This is why I would strongly suggest that Lance should obtain the correct documentation from Autotrail before he even thinks of contacting DVLA...

 

Just to add,when it it was all sorted,I contacted my insurance and other than amending/correct the details,there was no additional charge involved...nor did it affect the breakdown/recovery side of things.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-12 8:26 AM.................. It would be a good idea to drive the motorhome to the DVLA office just in case it needs to be inspected.

 

I think the nearest DVLA office to you will be the Birmingham one:

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/contactus/localoffices/findnear/england/birmingham_local_office.aspx

 

and you'd be well advised to phone (Tel: 0300 790 6802) the DVLA first to check that the procedure I've just suggested is right. You need to emphasise that the alteration from PLG to PHGV is merely a V5C correction and that no changes to the vehicle's original weight-data have been made or are required.....................

Definitely 'phone first, because I believe DVLA offices no longer carry out inspections, but now refer all vehicles for inspection to VOSA inspection stations. Well worth checking beforehand.

 

I have to say that is a remarkably unconvincing sticker, and I'm amazed if that is the only evidence of the upgrade. The VIN plate should surely have been amended to show the altered MAM, plus, presumably, a higher rear axle maximum?

[Derek Uzzell]

The 1st thing Lance should do is check what his motorhome's VIN-plate says.

 

While the presence of the 3850kg under-bonnet sticker implies that the VIN-plate will show a lower (probably 3500kg) gross weight figure, it doesn't prove that's so. There's little point in trying to guess what should or should not be on the VIN-plate as Lance can check that himself.

 

As I said earlier, what's on the VIN-plate is likely to affect how straightforward changing the VED class will be.

 

pepe63's case was different and, although it may well prove necessary for Lance to obtain documentary information from Auto-Trail to convince the DVLA to make the VED class change, if there's no need to do that why do it?

 

I've needed to contact the DVLA in the past (including when I imported my Hobby) and I've can't say I've had any problems. It is vital that DVLA staff understand what you want and that you understand what the DVLA want. Difficulties mostly seem to arise as a result of communications failure. It's a cruel thing to say perhaps, but, even though I'm now a fairly experienced motorcaravanner, I sometimes haven't a clue what people are asking about on this forum. It's hardly surprising really then that DVLA staff who aren't motorcaravanners, and probably have never heard of the joys of 'up-plating' or 'down-plating', have trouble dealing with motorhome weight-related issues.

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-13 10:18 AM

 

 

pepe63's case was different and, although it may well prove necessary for Lance to obtain documentary information from Auto-Trail to convince the DVLA to make the VED class change, if there's no need to do that why do it?

 

I've needed to contact the DVLA in the past (including when I imported my Hobby) and I've can't say I've had any problems. It is vital that DVLA staff understand what you want and that you understand what the DVLA want. Difficulties mostly seem to arise as a result of communications failure. It's a cruel thing to say perhaps, but, even though I'm now a fairly experienced motorcaravanner, I sometimes haven't a clue what people are asking about on this forum. It's hardly surprising really then that DVLA staff who aren't motorcaravanners...

 

 

Ooh I see now....so basically,it was all down to me coming over a bit thick and incoherent then Derek.. (lol)

 

So..to lance,forget what I said earlier,as the advice from "those who know",seems to be forget asking for documentation/verification from the actual manufacturer of the vehicle(..documentation which may well be obtainable via a simple email or phone request )and instead,go straight to dealing with DVLA...be that by way of sending off a photo of some tatty,dog-earred sticker to Swanea or by rolling up at your local DVLA office and just seeing how it goes... :-S

 

I wish you well,with it lance..... (lol)

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

In your case the DVLA apparently refused to accept that your Chausson was legitimately on a 3850kg chassis despite it having a 3850kg Trigano data-plate. Like Lance's Auto-Trail your motorhome had originally been registered in the PLG VED class and (based on your postings to other forums back in 2010) I understand the vehicle carried another (presumably Renault) data-plate with a 3500kg figure on it.

 

All the specification data I've come across in UK magazines indicate that the usual MTPLM of Continental-built Renault Master-based coachbuilt motorhomes marketed in the UK was 3500kg. Your motorhome had originally been registered as PLG, probably in error, but possibly at the request of the first owner. With two conflicting data-plates on the vehicle, one might logically expect the Trigano plate to override the Renault one, or, if the Renault-plate data were to apply, that the Trigano plate should be removed or replaced.

 

You bought your Chausson as a 3500kg (PLG) vehicle and PLG was on its V5C. Then you noticed the Trigano 3850kg plate and (because you had in mind to up-plate the vehicle) you asked the DVLA to alter the VED class form PLG to PHGV.

 

With two conflicting data-plates, and no telling evidence as to which took precedence, it's not too surprising (for me at least) that the DVLA had difficulties dealing with your request. As a motorcaravanner I would have said that the Trigano plate took precedence and the motohome should originally have been registered as PHGV, but how many DVLA staff are motorcaravanners? (And how many motorcaravanners fully understand motorhome data-plates and the UK VED classification system for that matter?)

 

Lance has yet to establish what's on his Auto-Trail's data-plate(s). The Fiat/Auto-Trail under-bonnet sticker advertises a new Gross Vehicle Weight of 3850kg and, although everything suggests this 'new' weight is an upwards revision (and it's likely the data-plate has an MTPLM of 3500kg on it) the sticker does not say that.

 

Assuming that the data-plate indicates an MTPLM of 3500kg, then it's plain that the Fiat/Auto-Trail sticker revises that weight upwards and that the motorhome should be in the PHGV class (unless, of course, there's a 3rd plate somewhere that indicates the vehicle had been 'down-plated' back from 3850kg to 3500kg!)

 

Unlike your Chausson - that could be marketed on the same chassis at 3500kg or 3850kg MTPLM - Lance's Auto-Trail model was not marketed by Auto-Trail on a Ducato Maxi chassis with two different MTPLMs. This is clear from the Auto-Trail brochures relating to Lance's Cheyenne 635.

 

I can't say how the DVLA will react to Lance's request to change his Cheyenne's VED class. As I said earlier "...it may be sufficient to take photos of your motorhome's data-plate (there's bound to be one somewhere) and Fiat/Auto-Trail sticker and take the photos, V5C, tax-disk, insurance certificate and MOT-test certificate to a DVLA local office."

 

If you read my posting of 12 February 2013 8:26 AM more closely you'll see that I in no way suggested that Lance '...go straight to dealing with DVLA...be that by way of sending off a photo of some tatty,dog-earred sticker to Swanea or by rolling up at your local DVLA office and just seeing how it goes..." I said "...you'd be well advised to phone (Tel: 0300 790 6802) the DVLA first to check that the procedure I've just suggested is right."

 

I also said subsequently that "...it may well prove necessary for Lance to obtain documentary information from Auto-Trail to convince the DVLA to make the VED class change...", but, if Lance contacts the DVLA local office as I suggested and they confirm no supplementary documentation from Auto-Trail will be necessary to make the VED change, there will be no need to get in touch with Auto-Trail.

 

What "correct documentation" do you suggest Lance ask Auto-Trail for? Assuming that his Cheyenne has a data-plate with 3500kg MTPLM on it and a 3850kg 'override' under-bonnet sticker, will he ask Auto-Trail to officially confirm that an MPTLM is correct for his motorhome when the Auto-Trail brochures already indicate that it is?

 

I'm not advising Lance that he should not contact Auto-Trail, I'm just saying that he should initially concentrate on confirming what's on his motorhome's data-plates, then check with his DVLA local office what documentation/evidence they need him to provide in order to change the vehicle's VED class.

 

 

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2013-02-12 7:26 PM

 

 

I have to say that is a remarkably unconvincing sticker, and I'm amazed if that is the only evidence of the upgrade. The VIN plate should surely have been amended to show the altered MAM, plus, presumably, a higher rear axle maximum?

 

A MAM upgrding to 3850kg on the Maxi Chassis, without any uprating of either of the max axle weights (1850/2120kg respectively) is a common, one might even say normal, occurrence.

 

 

[lancepar]

Thanks for all the input, the more the merrier, I am taking it all in and one way or another this issue will be resolved I promise.

Just to recap and update.

There is a FIAT plate on the bonnet slam panel which states the gvw as 3.5t

The Autotrail up-rating sticker is as near to it as physically possible and states the new gvw as 3.85t.

I had recently phoned Autotrail with the build number and they confirmed the up-rated chassis (Maxi ), but as this was the 1st step in my enquiries I didn’t ask for written documentation.

It was when I needed a new MOT in December that I wanted some rear tyres and noticed they were 16” that got me thinking, (15” 0n the 3.5t chassis).

We are the 3rd owners and although there are plenty of papers with it, nothing refers to the up/down rating.

 

Play nice >:-)

 

Lance

B-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Evenin' lance..

 

Well,if you've already been in contact with Autotrail and they've confirmed that your vehicle is 3850kg (as you knew/suspected),I can see very little harm in just phoning them again and requesting that in writing..

 

It may well be that it is already logged with DVLA as 38500kg and as you say, has been "downplated" by a previous owner...but it's also possible that it was registered from new as 3500kg(either by mistake or by customer request)..

 

Either way,getting something in writing from Autotrail(as Trigano did for me),would make dealing with DVLA SOoooo much easier.... ;-)

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I don't know if getting Auto-Trail documentation will make Lance's task of dealing with the DVLA "...SOoooo much easier..", but it certainly won't make it harder.

 

I've copied the following from a 2006 MotorHomeFacts thread:

 

"I have an autotrail which i purchased second hand (2004/54). The log book stated 3500, the vin plate stated 3500. When i went on autotrail website this model is 3850 as standard.

 

I contacted autotrail who were very helpful. I explained the problem, gave them all info , chassis no, build no etc and i was told it should have been 3850. They sent me a letter stating this together with a sticker to put at side of vin plate (told not to put sticker on until DVLA agrees and everything is sorted) stating 3850 weight.

 

I then had to go to DVLA and explain everything, showed them letter from autotrail and certificate of conformity showing 3850. I then had to hand in my old tax disc (still waiting for rebate) with wrong taxation class and purchase a new disk with correct taxation class. They then sent photo copys to swansea together with log book and 2 weeks later i got log book back with new weight of 3850 on."

 

Lance already has the magic Auto-Trail sticker alongside his motorhome's VIN-plate and the MHF posting suggests that his 2004/2005 Cheyenne is likely to have been Type Approved and will have a Auto-Trail-issued Certificate of Conformity (CofC) confirming the vehicle's MTPLM. A copy of the CofC + photos of the data-plate and sticker should convince the DVLA to change the VED class.

 

It would seem that the 'sticker' arrangement is how Auto-Trail used to revise the data-plate figures. As Brian observed, it lacks professionalism somehow.

 

GOOGLE reveals some interesting motorhome weight-to-VED-class anomalies, including the owner of an 8500kg MTPLM RV saying that this vehicle was in the PLG class (perhaps 8500kg was misread as 3500kg).

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2013-02-13 4:57 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2013-02-12 7:26 PM

 

 

I have to say that is a remarkably unconvincing sticker, and I'm amazed if that is the only evidence of the upgrade. The VIN plate should surely have been amended to show the altered MAM, plus, presumably, a higher rear axle maximum?

 

A MAM upgrading to 3850kg on the Maxi Chassis, without any uprating of either of the max axle weights (1850/2120kg respectively) is a common, one might even say normal, occurrence.

 

All true, Robin, but! :-)

 

From Derek's post, it seems the chassis is not a maxi chassis, so the uprate option is not necessarily available. The VIN plate is the one that gives the legal evidence of MAM: to be honest, that sticker appears to me to be informative, but not legally sufficient. For example, it has no VIN on it, so could simply have been "borrowed" from another vehicle.

 

I note the sticker says the axle load ratings have not been uprated, in which case it would seem all that has been done is to "raid" the tolerance between the sum of the two axle maxima, and the MAM. Which raises the MAM as in SV Tech's "desk upratings" but, because the axle loads are not increased, is of no benefit where an axle is already at (or over) its maximum load. Even if that is all that has been done, I still think the VIN plate should have beside it a supplementary plate showing at least the revised MAM, of 3,850kg. I believe such plates are supposed to be stamped, and riveted to the bodywork, not just a printed stick-on. So, I very much agree with Derek, that Lance needs first to find the Fiat VIN plate for the chassis, and then look for any official revising plate from Autotrail that modifies it. Until Lance finds that, I think we are all in the dark, and that he will have some difficulty with DVLA.

 

AS an aside, I also think, FWIW, that if he hasn't already done so, Lance should weigh his van in full travelling trim, to check whether his axle loads are within limits. If they are, and his MAM is the problem, it might be worth getting the V5C changed to legalise any accidental overload. However, if one or other is already at maximum, he will need to consider carrying less, redistributing, or getting the offending axle uprated, before any increase in MAM will legalise his van, irrespective of its present VED class.

 

If the axle loads are OK, and the MAM is not in danger, then the only advantage to be gained from changing the VED class would be the reduction in VED from the PLG rate to the PHG rate. That phone call to DVLA to see what evidence they will require to rectify someone's past error, may then prove its worth. If what they need is going to cause a major investigation of "who done what", to be able to present the required evidence, I personally think to "let sleeping dogs lie" may well turn out to be the best approach.

[kelly58]

EXHIBITOR SPOTLIGHT - SV TECH

New exhibitors SV Tech will be offering optional Free Motorhome Weight Checks for weekend campers upon arrival to the UK Spring Motorhome & Caravan Show 2013 using VOSA approved weigh pads, plus providing advisory information.

This service will be available on Thursday afternoon and Friday morning, located at the Camping Entrance. Each check will take just 3-4 mins. Staff will ask the motorhomes to roll over the weigh pads, taking a front axle and rear axle measurement, and will arrange a follow-up chat at the event.

Options include uprating & downrating available to each specific motorhome. Type Approval queries also answered. SV Tech also have a Load Distribution Analysis program, available FREE on the SV Tech website www.svtech.co.uk

Company contact details & enquiry forms can also be found on the website

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2013-02-13 8:53 PM

 

From Derek's post, it seems the chassis is not a maxi chassis...

 

No, there's no doubt (based on Lance's mention of 16" wheels and Auto-Trail's brochures) that Lance's Cheyenne is built on a Ducato 18 'Maxi' chassis.

 

It's likely that his Cheyenne's VIN-plate carries a Maxi chassis's normal GTW=5200kg, Max. front-axle loading=1850kg and Max rear-axle loading=2120kg weight-data, but with a 3500kg MTPLM that the 'sticker' revises to 3850kg.

 

It may well be that it was the norm for Ducato 18 Maxi chassis to have a 3500kg MTPLM on the VIN-plate and the 'additional sticker' was the standard method of increasing that MTPLM figure to 3850kg when required.

 

The vast majority of over-3500kg Ducato-based motorhomes will have been correctly UK-registered originally in the PHGV VED class. When this hasn't happened (as in Lance's case) analysis of the motorhome's data-plate(s) becomes important and only then will apparent oddities become evident. For correctly UK-registered motorhomes the owners will feel no particularly need to confirm what's on the VIN-plate/sticker.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-16 10:21 AM

 

It may well be that it was the norm for Ducato 18 Maxi chassis to have a 3500kg MTPLM on the VIN-plate and the 'additional sticker' was the standard method of increasing that MTPLM figure to 3850kg when required.

 

 

....having been through the uprating process with SVTech in the past (albeit as part of the original purchase, and done by the dealer) for my Benimar built on a Maxi chassis, I can vouch for the fact that the Maxi is/was normally shipped with a 3500kg MAM figure on the Fiat VIN plate.

 

[Brian Kirby]

OK, apologies, my misunderstanding. I have re-read Derek's post and realise I had misunderstood his meaning. As you were folks!

 

Though I have to say it seems a remarkably unconvincing way to signify that the original 3.5 tonne limit has officially been raised (presumably) back to 3,850. I think Lance probably will be well advised to get the V5C changed, if that is the only evidence he has of his MAM, should he be stopped as a roadside VOSA weight check - especially if the original plate shows 3,500kg.

[lancepar]

Update,

I now have all the evidence.

Fiat Ducato Cheyenne 635 with 16" wheels.

A Fiat/Autotrail VR Ltd Camping Car Package 057 sticker is on the bonnet slam plate from when the M/H was constructed uprating the GVW to 3.85t.

Letter received today from Autotrail (bless) confirming that the maximum authorised weight has been raised to 3.85t when constructed. Letter included another sticker showing:

 

AutoTrail

Second Stage Conversion

Build No. 7409

M.A.W. 3850kg

G.T.W. 5050kg

1- 1850kg

2- 2120kg

3- 0000kg

 

No excuses now*-)

 

Going to contact the DVLA and hopefully get the Revenue weight altered on the V5c from 3400kg which will make it a private heavy goods with a lower VED.:-)

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Bye

Lance B-)

[lancepar]

Good news.

After talking to Swansea I sent the Auto-Trail confirmation letter, Tax disc, V5c, Insurance certificate and M.O.T off to my local DVLA office, just why they need to see the last two beat me, they already have these on file.

Five days later I got the docs back, half the old V5c (I assume a complete new V5c will follow) and a new Tax disc showing PHGV and the reduced rate for the remainder of the period.

No money refunded :'(

Anyway all sorted now.

Cheers all.

B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

I'm (fairly) sure I recall people in your position saying that they had been refunded the difference between the PLG and PHGV VED rate on a pro rata basis for the period that remained on the tax disk. Per month, the difference is around £4.58 so, if you had 5 months left on your original tax disk, you might expect to get a refund of £22.90

 

You've owned your Auto-Trail since December 2011. As the vehicle should have been registered in the PHGV class, too much VED has effectively been paid for those 15 months. You won't get a retrospective refund for that period when your motorhome was wrongly VED-categorized, but I would have thought you'd be entitled to a pro rata refund for any full months left on your old tax disk.

[lancepar]

Maybe the refund will come with the new V5c but I am going to query it via a phone call to Swansea anyway.

 

B-)

[lancepar]

Corrected V5c has arrived with the revenue weight now 3850kg but no refund, when I asked DVLA, back in March about a refund, they said leave it 6 weeks, so now is time to chase it up again.

B-)

[lancepar]

All done now cheque arrived today £32.08, better than expected. Thought it was my birthday - hang on it is my birthday, lottery ticket I think. (lol)

 

B-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Result!

..and good luck on the lottery.... ;-)