paul_richardson Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Hi there, My wife and I are converting a SWB Transit into a Camper Van. Inside space is very tight, so I want to put the gas cylinder under the van. I don't think we can afford a full re-fillable tank system and wondered if any readers had any ideas of an alternative. Looking forward to your suggestions. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Hello Paul. I'll leave others to deal with refillable tanks, but in terms of installing exchange cylinders, or refillable cylinders, below the floor, I think this is not possible. There has to be a "head space" above the liquid gas level to ensure that what is passed to the regulator is never in liquid form. As exchange and refillable cylinders are designed to be used upright, that head space is below the connection point. If the cylinder is turned on its side, it is clear the connection point would be below the liquid level, and only liquid gas would be delivered to the regulator, and probably to the appliances - with quite exciting results if you tried to light any of them! So much so, in fact, that the normal advice is not even to transport disconnected cylinders on their sides. Bear in mind also that most cylinders are quite fat, so would be difficult to install beneath a van floor whatever their orientation (ground clearance). On the other hand, tanks that are designed for horizontal under-floor installation tend to be longer and slimmer than the equivalent upright cylinders. They overcome the head space problem by having the connection point on one side of the tank: designed to be the top when horizontal. So, I rather suspect you will be stuck with a tank. Others will correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 What do you intead using gas for? If it's cooking only then you could use Gaz cylinders inside which don't take up much room, if you will also be running te fridge and or heating then they might prove too small and expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 If space really is at a premium, then maybe don't have a gas system at all. Use a petrol-fuelled stove instead? The Coleman dual-fuel twin burner table-top stove is an utterly fantastic piece of kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 As Brian Kirby advises, your only realistic option if you want to carry an LPG reservoir outside your camper-van would be to fit a purpose-designed external tank. LPG cylinders come in various sizes. There's a list here: http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022892/liquefied-petroleum-gas-mo.pdf As as already been said, how much LPG you choose to carry (or whether you need LPG at all) will depend on the equipment you'll be fitting to your camper and how (and where) you plan to use the vehicle. Assuming that you are converting a panel-van Transit, you might consider cutting a hole in its floor and constructing an LPG storage-locker with the upper part of the locker above the floor and the lower part below. This would allow you to carry the LPG bottle upright (which is essential) but would minimise the bottle's intrusion into the camper's living-area. I can't see any problems doing this in principle. The gas-locker would need to be vented to the exterior (easy enough) and, when closed, sealed from the camper's living-area (which you'd have to ensure however you carried an LPG cylinder in the vehicle), but care would be needed to confirm the idea's practicability for your Transit and it would be a challenging DIY task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_richardson Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 colin - 2013-02-09 11:40 PM What do you intead using gas for? If it's cooking only then you could use Gaz cylinders inside which don't take up much room, if you will also be running te fridge and or heating then they might prove too small and expensive. Hi Colin, I'll only be using gas on a two burner hob, so I don't think my consumption will be very high. Gaz cylinders might be a solution for me. I'll check out the sizes available. Thanks for the idea. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_richardson Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-10 8:45 AM LPG cylinders come in various sizes. There's a list here: http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022892/liquefied-petroleum-gas-mo.pdf Hi Derek, Many thanks for your comprehensive reply, I think the storage locker in the floor idea will be too much for me to achieve, but the Caravan Club information is GREAT. Many thanks for the link, I've saved a copy on my pc so I can refer to it. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Given that you'll only be using LPG for a 2-burner hob, Campingaz (as Colin suggested earlier) is probably your best option. Campingaz exchangeable canisters come in three models (901, 904 and 907) with the 907 being the largest and holding 2.75kg of butane. The advantage of Campingaz bottles is that they can be (fairly) easily exchanged in most European countries: the disadvantages are that the cost-per-kg-of gas is high and that (although it's unlikely to affect you) using butane presents potential 'vaporisation' problems in very cold weather and/or when high-demand gas appliances are involved. If you choose the Campingaz route, I suggest you size the enclosure that will take the bottle so that a 907 canister will go in. If the biggest Campingas bottle will fit, then either of the smaller-size bottles will also fit. If you 'sized' for the smaller bottles, you'd be limiting your options when you came to exchange an empty bottle for a full one. I'm not sure what the position is regarding the gas installation of DIY motorhome conversions. I have a portable 2-burner hob/grill and Campingaz 907 bottle that goes back to my tenting days. It's kept at home (under the stairs) and gets brought out when there's an electricity power-cut. As you have just a 2-burner hob, I'm wondering if you need to have a 'proper' locker at all, or if just connecting a Campingaz bottle to the hob as and when you need to would be OK regulations-wise. A proper sealed/vented locker would be best, with the gas bottle continuously connected to the hob (and clearly more convenient) but it may not be an absolute necessity. The three sizes of Campingaz bottle are shown here: http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/product-search/text/campingaz/pg/2 The closest "Go Outdoors" store to you will be in Bristol. Details can be found here: http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/store-finder You'll note that the Go Outdoors (discounted) asking-price for buying a 907 canister + the LPG 'refill' is £49.99 Although you won't be able to do much about refill prices, you may well be able to find redundant Campingaz bottles at a local recycling centre or car boot sale. There are usually plenty of empty ones on offer on e-bay but, to exchange an empty bottle for a full one, I believe the carrying handle normally needs to be present. You'd be advised to steer clear of bottles that are badly corroded or obviously badly damaged, as Campingaz retailers may be reluctant to exchange them. Unlike exchangeable bottles from companies like Calor or Flogas, you actually 'own' a Campingaz bottle rather than 'hire' it. This raises the possibility of owners of Campingaz bottles refilling them themselves. This was discussed in some depth here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-cylinder-refilling/25421/ I subsequently e-mailed Coleman (who deal with Campingaz in the UK) and asked if there was anything in the Campingaz terms and conditions, or any UK regulation, that would legally prohibit the 'owner' of a Campingaz bottle from refilling it, instead of exchanging an empty Campingaz bottle for a full one. I did not receive a negative reply, so it's fair to assume that , if anyone with a Campingaz bottle wishes to refill it themself using the method suggested in the forum thread I've just mentioned, there's no legal reason preventing them from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_richardson Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hi Derek, Thanks again for a comprehensive reply. I'll put together a table of all the different sizes available (Calor and Campingaz) and see which I can fit in most easily. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 In our last T25 I constructed a gas locker for 2x907's, this was contained within a cupboard that housed pots, pans, plates and bowls for two people and on top of this was a two burner hob and grill. I'll see if I can dig out a photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hi Paul Don't assume that you HAVE to have a standard type of gas installation/cooker. If you only intend to use gas for cooking on and not for heating or a fridge, then personally I wouldn't go to the expense or hassle of fitting anything more extensive than you need. Instead I suggest you look to use a couple of these: http://direct.asda.com/ASDA-Portable-Gas-Stove/000943121,default,pd.html I have one and it is very easy to store in a cupboard (with gas drop out vents) until needed as it has a slightly smaller casing than the usual ones, but it is still as stable/usable as them. In use, you can easily place them on a worktop, using just one if needs be, or use them outside. The cylinders are very cheap compared to other forms of gas for minimal use. I'm sure Asda will have them in stock again as soon as the season starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hopefully you have email with photo's and discription, if not pm me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The Coleman dual fuel stove that I referred to, and that we reckon is just superb, is like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000QUIKX8/ref=asc_df_B000QUIKX811877566?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B000QUIKX8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Paul's photo is of a Transit Mk 7 with a high-roof addition and I assume this is the vehicle that's being converted to a camper. I don't know what Paul's plans are regarding VED classification when the conversion is complete but, if it's wished to register (and/or insure) the vehicle as a "Motor Caravan", the format of the cooking facilities may well be important. I'm minded to believe, based on Paul's earlier postings, that a 2-burner gas-fuelled hob has already been installed. If that's the case, then portable gas or petrol cookers can be disregarded. Besides which, a portable cooker clearly fails to meet the UK "Cooking Facilities" definition given here: http://www.caravanwise.co.uk/motor/diycamper.html It would seem to be possible to comply with the Cooking Facilities definition and (as I mentioned earlier) attach the gas-bottle only when necessary, though that would be very much a side-step and not something any self-respecting DIY-converter would choose to do. If there's room, for maximum flexibility it's probably better to opt for a 2 x Campingaz 907-bottle arrangement (as Colin did) than a single larger-capacity 'hire' (Calor, Flogas, etc.) container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_richardson Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-02-11 9:07 AM Paul's photo is of a Transit Mk 7 with a high-roof addition and I assume this is the vehicle that's being converted to a camper. I don't know what Paul's plans are regarding VED classification when the conversion is complete but, if it's wished to register (and/or insure) the vehicle as a "Motor Caravan", the format of the cooking facilities may well be important. I'm minded to believe, based on Paul's earlier postings, that a 2-burner gas-fuelled hob has already been installed. If that's the case, then portable gas or petrol cookers can be disregarded. Hi Derek, All of your comments above are correct, it is the Transit that we are converting, we would like to register it as a Motor Caravan when completed and the Hob is ready to install. I've found a space under the passenger seat, (which backs onto the kitchen area) where I could probably fit a bottle cupboard with a floor vent under it. I can't find "explicit" regulations saying what a bottle cupboard should be made of and I'm sure I've seen plastic enclosures on commercially converted vans. Do you have any comments on this idea. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 John Wickersham's book "Build your own Motorcaravan"(about £14 via Amazon) has a chapter on gas-supply systems. This chapter includes an example (with photos) of how a gas cylinder compartment with internal access might be constructed. Also provided are references to the appropriate British Standard regulations. JW's example is made of sheet steel with a 'gas-drop' vent in the base and a metal (sealed when shut) lid. I can't tell you whether a metal lining is a prerequisite for a new self-build motorhome's gas-locker nowadays (my Hobby's gas-locker has wooden walls and my previous Herald's locker had plastic walls), but I suspect not (still a good idea though). Adequate venting of the locker to the outside air should definitely be provided, and the locker should definitely be sealable from the motorhome's living area. It's commonplace for panel-van conversions to carry their gas-bottles so that they are accessed from inside the vehicle, as it saves cutting a big hole in the metal bodywork. I presume that, to allow you to have your conversion registered and insured as a fully-fledged motorcaravan, you'll need to have the gas system inspected and signed off by a qualified gas technician. If that's the case and you have someone in mind to do this, it might be worth checking what they would be happy with regarding the locker's design. I expect you areaware of the SBMCC http://www.sbmcc.co.uk/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 The latest British Standard covering the installation of LPG systems for habitation purposes in leisure accommodation vehicles is BS EN 1949: 2011 I'm doubtful that this is available freely on-line, but there's a summary of the superseded 2002 standard's advice on the following link, including information relating to 'interior' gas-lockers. (I'd guess that the 2011 standard will be the same in this respect.) http://www.pandawebservices.co.uk/sprinter_conversion/gas_rules.html I've looked at a few MMM test reports of panel-van conversions and the photos of the gas-lockers show a variety of construction methods, with some having metal cladding to their interior and others having ordinary furniture-board. It would be no bad thing to add fire resistance by cladding the locker's interior with metal, but there seems to be no demand for this in the BS. Purpose-designed gas-lockers are available http://www.uberbus.co.uk/latest-news/89-gas-locker-for-sale http://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/vw-campervan-conversions-gas-cromarty.asp but it may well be simpler to do as you've mentioned and construct a gas-locker beneath a seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBR Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 These people could advise on what's available. http://www.fesautogas.co.uk/ I got my 40ltr underslung tank from them and had loads of advice on phone prior to going ahead with the project. Downside-it wasn't cheap. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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