'White flight'

[nightrider]

I started this thread off thinking it was of interest but it seems to have degenerated into name calling and seeing who can insult the most, its the same as the other thread I started off about the two lads who got killed in the burning car, good threads started by me that were hi jacked and ruined. A couple of months ago I opened a face book group that is doing very well, facebook is supposed to be a little down market but I tell you what my group would leave this group standing in terms of members mutual respect, the two threads that I have just mentioned I put them on my group but it didn't end up in a full blown war, you lot are supposed to be well educated, load of screwballs if you ask me.

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-22 6:02 PM

 

No my friend the stupid notion that you don't get is they all have one thing in common, not their race, not their politics, but the their religion which has the ultimate end game of an Islamic world, no more no less. They are the Jehova witnesses of their type, just with a bomb or two and Allah on their side to convert or condemn the Kuffars, you'll simply never get it I'm afraid, just stick in delightful Mudeford ddoing your fishing, I knew it well years ago in my youth, like my own home City of Brum I loved before it went pear shaped with alien incomers to change it all.

 

If you were even remotely correct in your assumption that Islam is somehow unique among religions and that all Muslims want to rid the world of all non-Muslims, they aren't very good at it are they? If it were true then there wouldn't be a single white non-Muslim left alive in Birmingham and the likes of Clive and I who have lived and worked among them for years would have been murdered years ago.

 

And in answer to another one of your questions, I have met survivors of the London bomb blast (as I said earlier, one of my sons missed the bus - literally - by a whisker) and I have never heard one of them blame the Muslim community as a whole. Like most rational people, they do not associate a few dangerous idiots with the whole community. And the more I I hear from you, the more I am convinced you are a character from a sit-com - you cannot be for real or someone would have decked you years ago!

 

 

[CliveH]

antony1969 - 2013-02-22 7:55 PM

 

CliveH - 2013-02-22 3:30 PM

 

antony1969 - 2013-02-22 1:56 PM

 

CliveH - 2013-02-22 12:25 PM

 

But the Irish did reject Sinn Fein during the “Troubles” Anthony - in Eire Sinn Fein polled less than 2% of the vote and had no Seats in the Irish Parliament during the “Troubles”.

 

Now that Sinn Fein has rejected violence, in the 2011 election it gained 9.9% of the vote and this gave them 14 seats out of a total of 166.

 

Quite a success for tolerance I would suggest and the fact that when violence was part of Sinn Fein’s agenda over 98% of Irish voters REJECTED them. This is at odds with your view that a significant proportion of the Irish electorate supported them.

 

Their support came ONLY after violence was rejected by Sinn Fein.

 

The Irish are not thick - never have been - stereotypes again *-)

 

The Irish voted for what they wanted - that is all.

 

[/quote

 

 

Clive don't start on the branding the Irish thick lark , my background is Irish so im hardly likely to slag my own family off am I ? The comment was in jest .

Your figures differ to mine on Sinn Fein support . One major point would be hunger striker and terrorist Bobby Sands been elected as MP for Fermanagh at the height of the troubles in 1981 . Who voted him in ? Or wasn't it explained to the Irish who and what he was ?

 

 

 

Are you not getting a bit confused with Ireland and Northern Ireland Anthony?

 

Bobby Sands was elected as a Westminster MP with a seat in NI which is part of the UK.

 

The figures I quoted are for the situation in Ireland (Eire) where despite what Bobby Sands' supporters in Northern Ireland wanted - i.e. a "United Ireland" - the majority in Eire rejected the violence of the IRA and its then political wing, Sinn Fein and apart from less than 2% of the population, rejected them out of hand.

 

Now that Sinn Fein has rejected violence - they are doing far better in the elections - tho' they are still a minority party in that country.

 

Not confused at all Clive , is it not obvious I meant Northern Ireland

 

No it isn't Anthony. I was talking about The Republic Of Ireland (Eire) because until they rejected violence Sinn Fein was banned in Northern Ireland. Hence my first paragraph:-

 

" But the Irish did reject Sinn Fein during the “Troubles” Anthony - in Eire Sinn Fein polled less than 2% of the vote and had no Seats in the Irish Parliament during the “Troubles”."

 

It was always an extreme "annoyance" (not the best word to describe it :-S ) to the IRA that in Southern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland that during the troubles, they polled less that 2% of the votes in the country they professed to be fighting for and wanted the counties of NI to join to make the United Ireland.

 

Which of course is what the words Sinn Fein say in Gaelic - "Ourselves"

 

And this is really my point re how to deal with Extremism - if we go for just more antagonism and hatred then where will that get us?

 

What happened in Ireland, both North and South is a good example of what can be achieved if the moderates are given the power to have their say.

 

The very country that the IRA professed to be fighting to unite, rejected them at the ballot box in that countries elections. The moderates had their say. The people of Ireland rejected Sinn Fein when given the choice and gave them less then 2% of the vote which gave Sinn Fein no seats in the Irish Parliament.

 

It was only after Sinn fein rejected violence did people in Eire start voting for them in significant numbers.

 

We need to do the same for the moderates in the Islamic World. Making sure elections are free and not corrupt is a first step. Making sure that moderates see the West as helpful an non-antagonistic will take the process further.

 

Yes we will still see idiot extremists with their twisted logic want to blow up more bombs in the mistaken belief that this will further their cause. The Enniskillen bombing by the so called "Real IRA" is a classic example of this evil mind-set.

 

But I do believe that the moderates in this country are taking a stand against the extremists in their midst. i find it hard to believe that the successes we have had in thwarting the various plots has not come about without some sort of flagging up by moderates.

 

Yes the London Bombings were evil and tragic - any such atrocity is - but I think we should all remember that the extremist with a bomb has to be successful just once - whereas the Counter Intelligence Services have to be successful all the time.

 

This strategy of coming down hard on the extremists but being fair to the moderates worked in N.I.

 

I believe it to be a better strategy for the war against the Islamic extremists to isolate them and work with the moderates.

 

1 foots strategy of tarring them all with the same brush is a ridiculous mistake.

 

 

[antony1969]

Clive , to be clear it is not the republic but NI that I am commenting on , I have no interest in the republic at all , the last time I looked they were still two seperate countries .

Sinn Fein / IRA had plenty of support during the troubles and my point in terrorist hunger striker Bobby Sands been elected an MP while on hunger strike proves it .

In 1981 Catholics in NI were in the minority , less than half so for a terrorist to get voted in to Westminster must of meant a big Catholic vote had to take place , obviously no Protestants would vote for him .

Does that one disgraceful act in voting in a monster not mean a large amount of Catholics of voting age supported Sinn Fein / IRA and the murderous acts against British military and civilians .

[CliveH]

Yes Anthony - it does in the small province of Northern Ireland - But Bobby Sands was elected as just one of the NI MP's - there were Protestant MP's elected as well. I do not think Ian Paisley was representative of Protestant UK voters either - but he kept getting voted in!

 

Now he and the Sinn Fein leader in NI are known affectionately as "the Chuckle Brothers" because they found a way through the prejudice of years and years and were able to enjoy each others company AND get the job of running a peaceful NI. A fantastic success.

 

Sinn Fein was a banned political party in NI so no one could vote for them there. Not so now.

 

The point I am making is that the people of The Republic of Ireland , where Sinn fein was a legitimate political party and who at the time, canvassed votes on the ticket of a United Ireland via "the ballot box in one hand and an Armalite in the other", rejected Sinn Fein almost totally.

 

Less than 2% of the vote - no seats in the Irish Parliament.

 

It was this failure that made those in Sinn Fein realise that violence was not the answer.

 

Working WITH moderates works!

 

Tarring all with the same brush is absolute folly.

 

 

 

[nightrider]

What have the Muslims and the IRA got to do with my original Post, I've had enough of the shamb*****ks of this group, I'm out!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Perhaps there's too many of them in London, that's why the 600,000 moved out in case one or other group kicks off again :D :D :D

 

As for the one blokes talk of "moderates" and talking to them works, I hardly think Adams and Paisley are shining lights of moderation eh. oh well live in your fantasy worlds. ;-)

[CliveH]

I would say its got quite a lot to do with your original post Malc. If we want the UK to degenerate into the factions that symbolised the troubles in NI then we should go the route 1 foot suggests and label ALL of one religion the same and of course that will mean that that religion will see all of the other side as being exactly the same because the Tar brush is not at all selective ---- AND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

BINGO!!!!!!!

 

The "Troubles" aka Norther Ireland right on our doorstep for all to enjoy.

 

What a fantastic prospect.

 

Thousands of 1 foot's running about the place on both sides hurling abuse for starters then more disabling things later.

 

Hmmmmmm - Can't wait! :-S

 

(Sarc is on)

 

 

[CliveH]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 10:19 AM

 

Perhaps there's too many of them in London, that's why the 600,000 moved out in case one or other group kicks off again :D :D :D

 

As for the one blokes talk of "moderates" and talking to them works, I hardly think Adams and Paisley are shining lights of moderation eh. oh well live in your fantasy worlds. ;-)

 

They certainly were not moderates in the past - but they are now - and that is the point is it not?

[John 47]

CliveH - 2013-02-23 10:21 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 10:19 AM

 

Perhaps there's too many of them in London, that's why the 600,000 moved out in case one or other group kicks off again :D :D :D

 

As for the one blokes talk of "moderates" and talking to them works, I hardly think Adams and Paisley are shining lights of moderation eh. oh well live in your fantasy worlds. ;-)

 

They certainly were not moderates in the past - but they are now - and that is the point is it not?

 

Very good point, Clive - and it illustrates perfectly the nonsense of claiming ALL of any group are somehow sub-human. In former times, Paisley and Adams/McGuiness cocooned themselves in their own societies and this is the environment in which myths about the "opposition" develop. When they first came together they were very suspicious of each other; now that they have got to know each other they can see that all communities have the same fears and desires and you can use that to achieve a degree of concensus. I'm not pretending that all is now perfect in Northern Ireland but I am sure that everyone will agree that it is a lot better than it used to be - and it would never have got to where it is now without those former enemies meeting.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Just don't mention flags on Belfast, or the marching season eh :D :D :D

 

of course everything is rosy over there now. :D

 

They say...............

 

"It's not just about the flag any more. In my opinion it is about so much more, such as giving Sinn Féin everything they wanted. They are trying to take away everything that is British in this society. Why should they get everything they want? I personally don't think the flag will go up but I really hope it does. We are used to fighting in a corner and losing, but it's time we took a stand," Rowan said.

 

Any parallels there do you think, no of course not

 

 

:-|

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 11:17 AM

 

 

of course everything is rosy over there now. :D

 

 

One day you'll surprise us all by actually reading something before criticising it! :-D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I wasn't replying to you mate, just the idea that bringing two warring factions together doesn't always cut it, and maybe, just maybe the protestants do feel that they have been sold out, and no one is listening to their concerns, not that I give a fig about NI, let them get on with it.

 

By the way you were on here early this morning, what a full life you must lead, or just back from morning prayers eh >:-)

[John 47]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 11:35 AM

 

 

By the way you were on here early this morning, what a full life you must lead, or just back from morning prayers eh >:-)

 

Time difference! Here in sunny Almeria we are an hour ahead of the UK. It also has the advantage of being far away from your biting wit - I'd buy a new joke book if I were you. (lol)

[antony1969]

My point Clive was hopefully to prove that during the troubles there was a large support for Sinn Fein / IRA in NI something that somebody else suggested there wasn't .

I think your suggestion on Paisley enjoying the company of Adams etc totally wrong .

Remember there were many reasons the IRA / Sinn Fein wanted negotiation one of which was the loss of Libyan / Russian guns etc . An IRA war could not be fought on drug and intimidation money alone could it .

[CliveH]

OK Anthony - we can agree to differ on the various interpretations of what defines being "Irish" - my definition is Irish means of Eire. If you are from Northern Ireland then you are either Protestant and favour continuing being part of the UK or Catholic and wanting union with Eire.

 

And that was really my point - the Catholics in NI wanted union with The Republic of Ireland but the VAST majority of people in the South wanted nothing to do with the extremists in the North that were fighting for union with them! - Hence the significance of the less than 2% vote for Sinn Fein in Eire at the time of the Troubles.

 

As for Paisley being one of the Chuckle bothers - his "brother" was Martin McGuinness

 

They kept in touch it seems:-

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-feins-martin-mcguinness-i-still-keep-in-touch-with-ian-paisley-28492065.html

 

 

Which I think shows how even the most ingrained prejudice can be dismantled given the right circumstances and good will on both sides.

 

So there is hope even for the likes of 1 foot! (lol)

 

 

[Tracker]

CliveH - 2013-02-23 12:57 PM

Which I think shows how even the most ingrained prejudice can be dismantled given the right circumstances and good will on both sides.

 

Or was it the thought of getting real power - even if it did mean sharing?

[CliveH]

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 11:17 AM

 

Just don't mention flags on Belfast, or the marching season eh :D :D :D

 

of course everything is rosy over there now. :D

 

They say...............

 

"It's not just about the flag any more. In my opinion it is about so much more, such as giving Sinn Féin everything they wanted. They are trying to take away everything that is British in this society. Why should they get everything they want? I personally don't think the flag will go up but I really hope it does. We are used to fighting in a corner and losing, but it's time we took a stand," Rowan said.

 

Any parallels there do you think, no of course not

 

 

:-|

 

Of course there are parallels 1 foot - trouble is the parallels are with the idiots in the picture who are so called "loyalists" who riot because a flag is not flown and who as a group have been known to attack ethic minorities in NI as well as Catholics and with people of the same view as your good self.

 

"Ethnic minorities have been issued with a chilling threat to get out of Northern Ireland from young loyalists. A letter from the youth wing of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) warned foreigners to leave Northern Ireland before July 12. A note to community organisations last week stated: "No sympathy for foreigners, get out of our Queen's country before our bonfire night (July 11) and parade day (July 12). Other than that your building will be blown up"

 

Which is laughable given that these so called Loyalists were put their from Scotland years ago - so are themselves "Foreign".

 

So yes quite significant parallels i would suggest - Not anything I would be proud of though :-S

 

You may feel different of course.

 

Your prerogative as we thankfully still live in a free society.

 

 

 

 

 

[RogerC]

CliveH - 2013-02-22 6:10 PM

RogerC - 2013-02-22 5:58 PM

CliveH - 2013-02-22 5:29 PMNo wrong again RogerI regularly fish on boats out of Weymouth and Mudeford.I fished regularly from Boats when I lived in Worthing and Hastings before that.I know the seas have been overfished. The evidence is clear.Yes the quota system is stupid - I have said that for years - but you keep missing the point!We only had the quota system forced upon us BECAUSE of overfishing. The reference to Starships roger was a humerous suggestion that who else could possibly be guilty of decimating fish stocks other than fishermen. And yes - I do think i live on another planet to the one you are on - because i l lot of what you and i foot say is total alien to me and the world I inhabit.Again how typical of you to jump to the conclusion that because I dare to disagree with you my knowledge of Fish and Fishing extends only to a pack of fish fingers.Does being so laughably arrogant come easily to you or do you have to practice?

 

Overfishing was NOT caused by artisan fishermen such as those in Cornwall or anywhere else.....it was caused by the introduction of 'factory ships' and the quotas exacerbated this by forcing the 'all' fishermen to throw back perfectly good marketable fish because it was a species the fishermen were/are not allowed to land.

 

I must obviously bow to your superior personal knowledge seeing as you frequent those hallowed centres of the fishing industry.....your 'visitors' insight is obviously much better informed than mine.  I can only claim to have 'lived' through some of what we 'vigorously' discuss and have a family history actually involved in the industry.  

 

As for arrogance... I suppose I do need to practice more unlike you who seems to have perfected the art.

The fishermen of Cornwall according to you were not to blame - but their Trawlers were as big as and equiped the same as others in the UK.The "artisan" fishermen you cite may well not be to blame - but the ones I saw were hardly fishing for a hobby.

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.......the 'fact' that I was born and grew up in Looe, met my Grandfather and brother's boats on a daily basis coming in from sea, saw the fleet on a daily basis, that my grandfather and brother were both 'trawler skippers/owners' obviously means I know far less than you do.........  Please accept the humble apologies of someone who was brought up in a fishing town with family members directly involved in the industry, having boat skippers/owners in the family who got out because they could not compete with the 'big boats' and their factory ship ways means I obviously must bow to your superior 'visitors' knowledge.....like hell it does. 

 

There's none so blind as cannot see..........keep your white stick handy and be careful as you go.

 

 

[antony1969]

Clive , im happy if your happy , unlike me and some others on here you are difficult to disagree with as you come across as a decent chap .

[Tracker]

I too spent many years in Cornwall and I fished out of Falmouth both with rod and line for pleasure and part time commercially for extra income.

 

I posted the following a couple of days ago but managed to put the point without sarcasm, insults or rudeness -

 

 

" When we lived in Cornwall most of the Mackerel were caught on hand lines - albeit 30 plus hook handlines - and the Bass by rod and line whilst Whitefish were mainly caught on long lines.

 

It was bloomin hard graft but it was sustainable no matter how many boats went out each day and limited only by harbour sizes and willing participants.

 

Then in came the factory ships and the huge trawlers with nets the size of St Pauls to feed them scooping up and killing everything good bad and indifferent - nothing went back into the sea alive but plenty of dead fish did and still does.

 

So the fish stock dwindled and the fishermen turned to shellfish and to using bottom scallop dredges that kill everything they run over but don't catch - so again very little escapes to breed, the seabed is flattened taking years of non fishing to recover - if that ever happens.

 

Had they been left alone to sustainably fish within a sensible coastal limit the Cornish fishing fleet would still be be a thriving self supporting industry employing many more boats and crews than it does now."

[RogerC]

Tracker - 2013-02-23 1:53 PMI too spent many years in Cornwall and I fished out of Falmouth both with rod and line for pleasure and part time commercially for extra income. I posted the following a couple of days ago but managed to put the point without sarcasm, insults or rudeness - " When we lived in Cornwall most of the Mackerel were caught on hand lines - albeit 30 plus hook handlines - and the Bass by rod and line whilst Whitefish were mainly caught on long lines. It was bloomin hard graft but it was sustainable no matter how many boats went out each day and limited only by harbour sizes and willing participants. Then in came the factory ships and the huge trawlers with nets the size of St Pauls to feed them scooping up and killing everything good bad and indifferent - nothing went back into the sea alive but plenty of dead fish did and still does. So the fish stock dwindled and the fishermen turned to shellfish and to using bottom scallop dredges that kill everything they run over but don't catch - so again very little escapes to breed, the seabed is flattened taking years of non fishing to recover - if that ever happens. Had they been left alone to sustainably fish within a sensible coastal limit the Cornish fishing fleet would still be be a thriving self supporting industry employing many more boats and crews than it does now."

 

Very true Tracker.......however there were also trawlers who fished with trawl nets.  You can to a degree target fish 'sizes' with the dimensions of the net mesh but once the neck of the trawl gets full everything else gets caught as well.  In the times you are talking about I too used to long line with 'feathers' for mackerel, beach and rock cast for mullet, pollack, bass and bream.  I have tried to explain that the South West fishing fleet did fish in a sustainable manner.  Landing and selling what was caught meant a plentiful and varied supply of fish and nothing was wasted as it is now with quotas and factory ships.

 

I have just got the following from my brother who was a boat owner and skipper for many years operating out of our home town Looe:  The majority of the south west fishing fleet comprised boats of no more than 45ft in length, had a maximum capacity of 4-5 tons.  They fished on a 'daily basis'...out at first light and back by night time.  If they were lucky went out 200 days per year (weather dependent).  Consequently they were not permanently 'on station' sweeping the oceans clear of fish as the factory fleets did.

 

Those that did 'bottom trawl' would fish an area for a couple of days them move on to allow the stocks to re-establish. Ergo 'sustainable ecologically friendly fishing'.....

 

Therefore it was NOT the south west fleet that caused the devastation of the fish stocks around the UK southern waters.  Fishing as they did was sustainable.     Unfortunately a certain poster seems unable to grasp or understand the truth.

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

John 47 - 2013-02-23 11:58 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-02-23 11:35 AM

 

 

By the way you were on here early this morning, what a full life you must lead, or just back from morning prayers eh >:-)

 

Time difference! Here in sunny Almeria we are an hour ahead of the UK. It also has the advantage of being far away from your biting wit - I'd buy a new joke book if I were you. (lol)

 

Well what a sad git you really must be, to make one of the first things you do is come on here, and then spend most of the day on here, you REALLY should get out more mate. >:-) oh sorry you are, in sunny Almeria with bugger all to do.

 

I'm walled up in freezing temperatures here in Wales if I was in Mojacar or near that neck of the woods I'd be out enjoying it pal, or getting "decked" by you eh >:-)

 

or was it your pal CliveH I can't keep up that thinks I need to get "decked"

:D

[CliveH]

antony1969 - 2013-02-23 1:41 PM

 

Clive , im happy if your happy , unlike me and some others on here you are difficult to disagree with as you come across as a decent chap .

 

Thank you Anthony - we all have a different take on life - some can accept that others can not.

 

Conversations with most blokes I know often get differing views voiced - but being blokes rather than "old women" - it is "who round is it" and then carry on having a laugh/serious discussion.

 

 

[CliveH]

RogerC - 2013-02-23 1:15 PM

CliveH - 2013-02-22 6:10 PM

RogerC - 2013-02-22 5:58 PM

CliveH - 2013-02-22 5:29 PMNo wrong again RogerI regularly fish on boats out of Weymouth and Mudeford.I fished regularly from Boats when I lived in Worthing and Hastings before that.I know the seas have been overfished. The evidence is clear.Yes the quota system is stupid - I have said that for years - but you keep missing the point!We only had the quota system forced upon us BECAUSE of overfishing. The reference to Starships roger was a humerous suggestion that who else could possibly be guilty of decimating fish stocks other than fishermen. And yes - I do think i live on another planet to the one you are on - because i l lot of what you and i foot say is total alien to me and the world I inhabit.Again how typical of you to jump to the conclusion that because I dare to disagree with you my knowledge of Fish and Fishing extends only to a pack of fish fingers.Does being so laughably arrogant come easily to you or do you have to practice?

 

Overfishing was NOT caused by artisan fishermen such as those in Cornwall or anywhere else.....it was caused by the introduction of 'factory ships' and the quotas exacerbated this by forcing the 'all' fishermen to throw back perfectly good marketable fish because it was a species the fishermen were/are not allowed to land.

 

I must obviously bow to your superior personal knowledge seeing as you frequent those hallowed centres of the fishing industry.....your 'visitors' insight is obviously much better informed than mine.  I can only claim to have 'lived' through some of what we 'vigorously' discuss and have a family history actually involved in the industry.  

 

As for arrogance... I suppose I do need to practice more unlike you who seems to have perfected the art.

The fishermen of Cornwall according to you were not to blame - but their Trawlers were as big as and equiped the same as others in the UK.The "artisan" fishermen you cite may well not be to blame - but the ones I saw were hardly fishing for a hobby.

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.......the 'fact' that I was born and grew up in Looe, met my Grandfather and brother's boats on a daily basis coming in from sea, saw the fleet on a daily basis, that my grandfather and brother were both 'trawler skippers/owners' obviously means I know far less than you do.........  Please accept the humble apologies of someone who was brought up in a fishing town with family members directly involved in the industry, having boat skippers/owners in the family who got out because they could not compete with the 'big boats' and their factory ship ways means I obviously must bow to your superior 'visitors' knowledge.....like hell it does. 

 

There's none so blind as cannot see..........keep your white stick handy and be careful as you go.

 

However big the trawlers were - if they took fish from the seas then the contributed to the overfishing. Of course some are more guilty than others - Factory ships obviously. But unless the Trawlers I saw both in Cornwall and from other ports in the UK went out NOT to catch fish - I fail to see how they could do anything other than contribute to the problem. And once again - we have you trying to bully your viewpoint across by saying as a "visitor" my opinion can be dismissed because of your superior knowledge or experience.Like I said I too have lived in Ports where Fishing fleets existed and regularly line fish still - along the South coast admittedly - so unless Cornish fishermen are significantly different to every other fishing fleet in England I would suggest that the distinction you seek by way of geography is not really that relevant.but we could just agree to differ (lol) (lol) (lol)