bobhodgkinson Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Hi Thanks for the replies I agree with what happens,but what I am looking for is an answer to rectify the problem.As i said earlier on I pulled the car for over a year and it never happened once until strangely the last time I ever towed with the old motorhome the problem arose.Could it be some kind of wear on a part of the car steering mechanism?Remember I just had it MOTd and serviced by Mercedes.Knowing what they are like I,m sure they,d have picked up on any wear. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobhodgkinson Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Just done a test run with the smart car on the back of a van ,which had only a 2 foot overhang and guess what it was just the same.Obviously the overhang does,nt seem to have any difference!!As the overhang on both the motorhomes were in excess of 6 feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airstream Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Better a little snake than this? http://globalnews.ca/news/589937/fire-torches-motorhome-car-in-tow/ Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 It sounds like the steering is now fully "run in" and lost the friction that tended to damp down wobbling. As an experiment try dropping the front tyre pressures say 5psi. If it works go back up until it starts again and then drop back. Remember to correct them for normal driving. Some steering racks in the past had an adjustable pad but I suspect closer engineering tolerances have made them unneccessary Here are a couple of ideas to put some damping back, it needs to be easily removable to drive the car but robust enough not to fall off and jam the steering. Some sort of friction pad could be brought to bear on the steering column, something like a bungee cord over a bit of carpet or felt Another might be couple of bits of flat plastic/ metal clamped to the steering wheel to give a paddle wheel effect in the air. It used to be used in clocks. Regarding the burnt out RV and car there is no indication of the actual cause. The radiant heat from either vehicle could have set fire to the other. The risk assesment report for a 19m long tow bar could be interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobhodgkinson Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Hi George,said earlier on lowered front car pressures,no change.To-day we tried putting weight in the car ie I sat in car whilst being towed on private road it happened again,and believe you me the power in that steering wheel going full lock from side to side on it,s own,there is no way a bungee could stop that.I tried to stop it and it was impossible. The problem arises on a very low speed turning sharp left or right.There,s obviously a very acute angle and speed that combined together trigger the event.Say approaching or on roundabout where the angle is not as severe and a little faster than you would taking a sharp left or right no problem. Not mentioning the place who fitted the A frame could,nt come up with an answer short of change the car Ha Ha!!! Even if I did whats to say it could,nt happen with another car.Guarantee it won,t he says if you use a Peugot 107!!! It,s got the engine in front more weight. That says to me 2 things he,s cluless or more weight in front could be the answer.But I towed over 12 months and never had the problem.Why all of asudden should the weight come into the problem? Remember I sat in car and I,m 11 stone and it happened.Still hoping somebody out there may have the remedy to fix this problem.Bob *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Just curious..but are these A frames, all pretty much the same length?... ..As you have access to somewhere "private" to try it out, I just wondered if it'd be worth looking at making a "trial/mock-up" frame, that would enable you to try different lengths?(...slightly longer?) (..would it be possible to just substitute the main arms, for the purpose of a "trial"?..) Just a thought..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 bobhodgkinson - 2013-08-01 2:58 PM Hi George,said earlier on lowered front car pressures,no change.To-day we tried putting weight in the car ie I sat in car whilst being towed on private road it happened again,and believe you me the power in that steering wheel going full lock from side to side on it,s own,there is no way a bungee could stop that.I tried to stop it and it was impossible................... Don't have a solution, but if the steering wheel is travelling lock to lock, and presumably back again etc, then the front wheels must be doing likewise. It the van is by this time travelling straight, then the oscillation in the Smart steering must be pulling the rear of the van alternately left and right etc - assuming the A-frame attachments and the towbar and coupling are all properly tight and free of excess play. If there is little to no lateral play in the van rear suspension, that pulling around must presumably be accomodated by the side walls of the tyres flexing. So, could that be at least part of the cause? Dynamic systems have their own resonances so, if the rate at which the steering unwinds under the conditions you describe happens to hit the right (wrong! :-)) frequency, it may hit the natural sway frequency for the van tyres. As the car pulls right, the tyres resist and push back left, the steering unwinds under the pressure from the tyres but overshoots the other way to now pull left, so the tyres now push back right, and so on. A bit like what bikers used to call a "tank-slapper", I think? If this began to happen recently, something must have changed. So, might you have changed the van tyres, or running pressures, at some point before you first noticed this effect? Reducing pressures for a more comfortable ride would have some impact on the lateral rigidity of the tyres. This, and a little wear in the A-frame coupling, might be all that is required to allow the reaction. After all, there must, logically, be some play in the A frame coupling, both to allow it to articulate, and as a consequence of wear over time, however small, to add to the mix. Just theorising, in the hope it may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Other than looking inside a Smart and thinking as a two seater its roomy. I have very little knowledge of them but a bit of googling revealed that most have no power steering but do have a damper rather like a horizontal telescopic suspension damper. If its given up the ghost it could be the cause of the sudden change. It would probably not be obvious in a routine check over especially if there was no road test. Suggest you take it back to the servicing garage and ask them to check it out. As its been recently serviced you have a bit of leverage for it to be FOC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 George Collings - 2013-08-01 9:13 PM Other than looking inside a Smart and thinking as a two seater its roomy. I have very little knowledge of them but a bit of googling revealed that most have no power steering but do have a damper rather like a horizontal telescopic suspension damper. If its given up the ghost it could be the cause of the sudden change. It would probably not be obvious in a routine check over especially if there was no road test. Suggest you take it back to the servicing garage and ask them to check it out. As its been recently serviced you have a bit of leverage for it to be FOC That sounds very logical, would certainly explain any lack of resistance in the steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Yep, that sounds very plausible. Probably not too noticeable when driving it, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Glancing through this month's MMM I noticed a letter from a chap who towed a suzuki on a frame and when they arrived in France discovered it had no brakes left. no explanation of why the brakes were shot but quite expensive to fix. I tow my car on a trailer and have none of these issues. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 And the poor old steering damper gets a lot of stick being hung out on an A frame. Dave's mention of worn out brakes reminded me that it crossed my mind that might have been what happened to that burnt out RV rig shown in the link. Unless there is a warning system it would be vey easy to drive off without releasing the cars handbrake and the driver of a 300 hp V10 RV would never notice. Eventually the rear brakes would get so hot the hydraulics split, spilling brake fluid that bursts into flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 We leave our car at home locked in the garage. Can't see the point of towing a small car. If we needed a car ,and we may do sometime when we get less mobile with age, I'd go back to towing a caravan and have the use of a decent car on site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Has anybody costed out the feasibility of hireing a small car or taking taxis, when needed, instead of buying and tugging etc on an A Frame/trailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Hi All. How much longer will this subject go on it is getting very boring people making unsubstantiated observations on a subject they know nothing about. There are those that love them, those that don't, those that have never tried them but still comment on there road worthiness and those that are scare mongers. I dred opening my emails and seeing the same subject popping up day after day week after week BOOOOOOO For gods sake enough is enough. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Retread24800 - 2013-08-03 5:53 PM Has anybody costed out the feasibility of hireing a small car or taking taxis, when needed, instead of buying and tugging etc on an A Frame/trailer? I tried this in a 3 month tour of the West Country, not the 'taxi's' bit, but hire cars through Enterprise/CC , quite resonable at weekends, only £50 or so from midday Friday-midday Monday, but a bit inconvenient, and much more expensive during the week. I have decided that it would be far better to have my own car, a Yaris, with me (instead of it being parked in the garage...like Colin's ) BUT, I have already been a 'Tugger' , and to tow a caravan safely you need a BIG car or a 4x4, SO I won't be going back to Caravans. AND I don't like Car Trailers....you need somewhere to park it, both onsite and off, maintain it , and of course there is the loading and securing of the car, NO, an A-Frame makes perfect sense (to me). Takes up no space on site, fits into the shed when not in use at home. Just want to see the 'nitty gritty' of these 'new' 2014 laws relating to them, Before parting with any money. I am convinced, and i spoke to many,many users whilst 'Out and about' on sites (in the UK). who seem convinced too. Ray For Colin's 'Decent' car, read large 'gas guzzler' which you use ALL the time, not just when towing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Your right but that simply means just like the one we use at home but its comfortable, safe, can cope with bad weather and the bomb crater size pot holes we have in our roads round here. We do a very low milage in it so petrol consumption is not that much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobhodgkinson Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Hi Mike sorry all this is boring you but if you saw my original letter it was for help with the problem of the car snaking.I did,nt ask for the politics, or the fors and against, the theories.Just a cure!!!! If one can,t come up with a cure please don,t bother .I,m sure if it were you, you would appreciate the help.Thank you.To anybody who is interested my latest attempt was to disconnect the battery of the car as the power still goes to the ABS even though the ignition is off. This did,nt work either.This is to help anybody else out there who may have the same problem.In answer to a change in tyre pressures of the motorhome No I haven,t altered them at all,the M/home is brand new.If I crack the problem I,ll let you know,in the meantime I shall try something else.Incidentally there is a similar forum in America and they too are having the problem. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docted Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 In my opinion the problem is caused by low speed turns which are quite sharp in which the castoring action of the steering is too powerful causing this causes the front wheels drag rather than turn. This in turn leads to the snaking effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Mickydripin - 2013-08-03 9:46 PM Hi All. How much longer will this subject go on it is getting very boring people making unsubstantiated observations on a subject they know nothing about. There are those that love them, those that don't, those that have never tried them but still comment on there road worthiness and those that are scare mongers. I dred opening my emails and seeing the same subject popping up day after day week after week BOOOOOOO For gods sake enough is enough. Mike Hi Mike, simple answer, unsubscribe email notifications. I will clarify that the car I tow on a trailer is my race car so only towed to/from hillclimb and Sprint meetings. As for unsubstantiated observations on a subject we know nothing about I beg to differ, I happen to know and understand a lot about A frame towing. Just because I've never done it doesn't mean I can't or don't understand the principles involved. As a qualified mechanic of some 36 years experience and a technical writer for about twenty years, a motorhome owner and user for 23 years and a driver for 34 years who has driven in excess of 1.5 million miles in a variety of vehicles ranging from a moped to 7.5 tonne trucks and towed all sorts of outfits I do feel qualified to comment. Just because some comments do not comply with your desire to use an A frame does not make them wrong or unsubstantiated. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Just because some comments do not comply with your desire to use an A frame does not make them wrong or unsubstantiated. ------------------------------------------------------------- Dave, I do not worry about what other people think about me A framing up to now I have had no problems it is everybody's choice to do what they want weather it be right or wrong. And Bobhodgkinson you came in a month after the subject had been done to death. Sorry but yes everybody has the right to ask questions I more than most am grateful for all the help from certain members of this forum Dave, Derek Brian (sorry if I have missed others that have helped me in the past) and others that I can not remember I look forward to some subjects as they make great reading and if I turn off the emails I could miss something that I was interested in. I apologise to the more informed members of this forum but my post was not to them but the few that keep this subject going and going when they are not looking at the advice that is being given by the more experienced members. I have been motorhoming since 2007 even though one stood on my drive for four years due to a crap dealer and I am still learning and MMM is still helping me. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pausim Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 I know this thread is now old and hopefully the originator has solved their problems. However anyone like me who does a search on the matter may well find themself here. I had this problem which would kick in only on slow speed turns when clipping a pot hole or mini roundabout. The problem appears to arise from a lack of damping in the steering, as the wheels try to re centre quickly the momentum of the steering wheel carries the steering to the opposite extreme and thus the snaking starts. The US forums advocate a bungee through the sterring wheel, secured to drivers seat frame. I was concerned that this might limit the steering too much or even get tangled. My solution was to create a yoke over the steering wheel to create a small amount of reistance and I have not had a problem since. This is really a modification of the US solution. I took a short length of garden hose, sufficient to run over the top of the steering wheel and hang down a little on both sides. It sits comfortably over the gap between the wheel and the fixed housing behind it. I then threaded a piece of rope through the hose and put a loop on each end (a bowline is a good knot for this). The knots not only provide anchoring points for a couple of short bungees but stop the hose from sliding on the rope, they need to be close to hose pipe. Two short bungees through the loops and hooked onto the seat mounting frame complete the job. There was a little tinkering needed to get the lengths right so that the wheel was damped but not too restricted but the solution was cheap and solved my problem. I post this only so that others who come accross this thread can be informed that this particular problem can be easily solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 tonyishuk - 2013-07-29 10:23 AM Back to my bungee cord theory :D Rgds YES, after my post back in 2013, i went on to tow my Yaris on a Car-a-tow , A-frame without any mishaps for nearly 3 years, doing several thousand touring miles all over the UK. I have now downsized to a PVC, but still believe that A-frames are the way to go,when taking covered transport with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Skimming through this old but resurrected thread I thought these videos might be of interest.... In car camera showing the steering working quite happily while the car is towed on an a-frame behind a motorhome: Reversing a car on an a-frame without drama around a corner: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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