Capital punishment

[antony1969]

knight of the road - 2013-07-03 1:33 AM

 

You are sent to prison not so much for punishment, you are sent to prison for the deprivation of your liberty.

 

Seems a tad unfair to me , a murderer deprives you of life and your family to eternal misery and all they get at the most is 20 years of liberty taken .

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 6:50 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-02 9:04 PM

 

Another Daily Mail reader, I suggest you go down the Scrubbs and get a reality check.

 

Yes obviously the Scrubbs and the rest of these places are terrible , horrible , rat infested hell holes . I presume that's why they are full to bursting point because the big bad naughty criminal type geezers really don't like going inside do they ?

 

Well having spent 12 months in the Scrubbs, I'm guessing I have the edge on you and having had first hand experience of both the conditions and the inmates I can tell you the reality is very different than the Daily Mail would have you believe. I am not an apologist for anyone that breaks the law, but Chris Hulmes they are not, a great many have mental health issues, others let down by the education system, many do try to get back to a normal existence, and find work, easier said than done, when you've done a stretch.

 

The one thing I learnt from my time, was that even the great and the good can falter,and find themselves in the blue brick, but like those MPs imprisoned for fiddling their expenses that will be released and go back to their lives as if nothing had happened, it just becomes a revolving door for many that have zero support or help on their release, that's where in my view the problem has always been, until that situation is really addressed, that's the way it will stay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John 47]

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 6:50 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-02 9:04 PM

 

Another Daily Mail reader, I suggest you go down the Scrubbs and get a reality check.

 

Yes obviously the Scrubbs and the rest of these places are terrible , horrible , rat infested hell holes . I presume that's why they are full to bursting point because the big bad naughty criminal type geezers really don't like going inside do they ?

 

They are full to bursting point because no criminal thinks he will ever be caught. I repeat, if making prisons more uncomfortable worked, then the "Bangkok Hilton" would be empty - but it too is full to bursting.

 

Some people on here are assuming far too much logic and reason in the mind of the average criminal.

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-03 8:59 AM

 

 

Well having spent 12 months in the Scrubbs, I'm guessing I have the edge on you and having had first hand experience of both the conditions and the inmates I can tell you the reality is very different than the Daily Mail would have you believe. I am not an apologist for anyone that breaks the law, but Chris Hulmes they are not, a great many have mental health issues, others let down by the education system, many do try to get back to a normal existence, and find work, easier said than done, when you've done a stretch.

 

 

Unless you were a screw Mike ;-).................I guess you did your stretch a long time ago?..............when the Scrubbs was a proper prison?..................and for something that would probably incur just a caution now days such as GBH *-)................

 

But more importantly it worked B-)...............now your a fine upstanding member of this forum :D

[Guest pelmetman]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 9:55 AM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 6:50 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-02 9:04 PM

 

Another Daily Mail reader, I suggest you go down the Scrubbs and get a reality check.

 

Yes obviously the Scrubbs and the rest of these places are terrible , horrible , rat infested hell holes . I presume that's why they are full to bursting point because the big bad naughty criminal type geezers really don't like going inside do they ?

 

They are full to bursting point because no criminal thinks he will ever be caught. I repeat, if making prisons more uncomfortable worked, then the "Bangkok Hilton" would be empty - but it too is full to bursting.

 

Some people on here are assuming far too much logic and reason in the mind of the average criminal.

 

 

I can't say I'm bothered if prison works or not..................I suggest that rehabilitation has failed because the system is too soft *-).....................and from my point of view locking people up for longer who repeatedly commit the same crime is sensible...............as it would save the taxpayer a fortune in police, courts, insurance, lawyers etc >:-)...............

 

 

[antony1969]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 9:55 AM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 6:50 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-02 9:04 PM

 

Another Daily Mail reader, I suggest you go down the Scrubbs and get a reality check.

 

Yes obviously the Scrubbs and the rest of these places are terrible , horrible , rat infested hell holes . I presume that's why they are full to bursting point because the big bad naughty criminal type geezers really don't like going inside do they ?

 

They are full to bursting point because no criminal thinks he will ever be caught. I repeat, if making prisons more uncomfortable worked, then the "Bangkok Hilton" would be empty - but it too is full to bursting.

 

Some people on here are assuming far too much logic and reason in the mind of the average criminal.

 

 

You are wrong . My background like 1foots has been " different " to probably most on here and I can tell you the people I have mixed with do not commit crime because they dont think they will get caught , they commit crime because its easy , easy money , easy targets , easy prison stretches that go with the job . They know everybody inside so what's the problem with doing a stretch ? none every so often you go inside , its no big deal to em .

1foot says it was tough in the Scrubbs , that's because unlike most he is not a career criminal anybody in his position would find it tough . As for 1foots comment about folk inside having " bad look stories " well my heart bleeds but that doesn't mean you need to rob, murder , rape another person does it ?

 

[John 47]

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 10:15 AM

 

 

You are wrong . My background like 1foots has been " different " to probably most on here and I can tell you the people I have mixed with do not commit crime because they dont think they will get caught , they commit crime because its easy , easy money , easy targets , easy prison stretches that go with the job . They know everybody inside so what's the problem with doing a stretch ? none every so often you go inside , its no big deal to em .

1foot says it was tough in the Scrubbs , that's because unlike most he is not a career criminal anybody in his position would find it tough . As for 1foots comment about folk inside having " bad look stories " well my heart bleeds but that doesn't mean you need to rob, murder , rape another person does it ?

 

From what you say, the people you mixed with are what most people would call petty criminals. This thread started off on the subject of hanging; we are clearly talking about major crime here and, I repeat, no murderer or rapist thinks he is going to get caught.

 

As for ignoring the "bad luck stories", I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

[Guest pelmetman]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 10:42 AM

I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

 

Probably because today's Youff know that they can get away with it.............and going to prison is no big deal.................in fact its a badge of honour, like getting your first ASBO *-)..........

 

Sorry John, but the prison system is run by do gooders like yourself, who think like you do ;-) ...........and the average trainee future career criminal know's it >:-).........so it holds no fear for them.....going to jail is just a occupational hazard..............and means they get to spend more time on the XBox *-).............and learn a few tips on how to be a proper criminal..............Dale Cregan started out as a petty criminal :-|

[John 47]

pelmetman - 2013-07-03 10:55 AM

 

John 47 - 2013-07-03 10:42 AM

I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

 

Probably because today's Youff know that they can get away with it.............and going to prison is no big deal.................in fact its a badge of honour, like getting your first ASBO *-)..........

 

Sorry John, but the prison system is run by do gooders like yourself, who think like you do ;-) ...........and the average trainee future career criminal know's it >:-).........so it holds no fear for them.....going to jail is just a occupational hazard..............and means they get to spend more time on the XBox *-).............and learn a few tips on how to be a proper criminal..............Dale Cregan started out as a petty criminal :-|

 

What on earth is there in what I said that leads you to conclude I am a "do-gooder"? Perhaps you don't believe in trying to prevent things happening in future and are quite happy to carry on locking yourself away in your fortress home while the circumstances that create criminals just carry on. I believe that is called burying your head in the sand.

 

 

[Symbol Owner]

pelmetman - 2013-07-03 10:55 AM

Sorry John, but the prison system is run by do gooders like yourself, who think like you do ;-) ...........and the average trainee future career criminal know's it >:-).........so it holds no fear for them.....going to jail is just a occupational hazard..............and means they get to spend more time on the XBox *-).............and learn a few tips on how to be a proper criminal..............Dale Cregan started out as a petty criminal :-|

As so often Dave, you 'know nuffinck' (or very little) on this subject, but air your prejudices all the same.

 

My time 'inside' -- 3 months, (unlike 1foot) was spent ' on the other side' with the probation/prison welfare service in an 'open' prison. I have also visited an old local 'nick' pretty regularly plus occasional visits to 'closed' or secure prisons, i.e. Dartmoor (which fully lives up to its evil reputation). I can assure you that the 'system' was not "Run by do-gooders" then, (70's & 80's) nor, I'm pretty sure, is it now. Prison officers are a strange, hard (neccessarily) & conservative bunch, resistant to change, with a powerful sense of 'us & them' and very sceptical of any attempts at 'reform', either of the system or the individual inmate. The prison 'Governor' class are 'hard-nosed' Civil Servants, who, whilst professing an interest in 'rehabilitation' ( which should surely be the aim of any such institution) are usually despairing of being able to make one jot or tittle of difference to the majority of professional criminals. Like Mike, (1foot) they know full well that support services on the 'outside' are woefully inadequate, due to a succession of governments cutting back on financial support, pandering instead to your Daily Mail fixation on 'banging 'em up' -- even to the degree of ordering/using prison ships to supplement over-full gaols. As for yours and Antony's comments about the supposed 'cushy' life inside -- for your average hard-pressed prison governor there is a fine balance to be struck between the purely 'holding' or punishment aspect of prison life and re-training for release -- plus the need to 'keep a lid' on frequently volatile prison populations -- which can 'explode' with great ferocity into uncontrollable riots, rooftop protests, etc. A bored prison population is a highly dangerous one, so all ways of occupying the inmates (on a painfully thin budget) have to be employed -- so you can sneer at 'X-Boxes' etc. -- they have their uses!

We've moved a bit away from Malcolm's original 'Capital Punishment' thread, but I , too, have read Albert Pierrepoint's autobiography and agree fully with him about the deterrent effect (or not) of the rope.

He attempts to prove that, with his 'scientific' methods, he could ensure that the 'process' itself was less barabaric than previous (basically slow stangulation) methods, but, along with H.E., if we were to return to capital punishment (heaven forbid) then the American use of lethal injection would seem to me to be preferable to any thing else currently available.

 

Colin.

 

P.S. Thanks John 47, you beat me to it -- much more succinctly!

 

C.

[antony1969]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 10:42 AM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 10:15 AM

 

 

You are wrong . My background like 1foots has been " different " to probably most on here and I can tell you the people I have mixed with do not commit crime because they dont think they will get caught , they commit crime because its easy , easy money , easy targets , easy prison stretches that go with the job . They know everybody inside so what's the problem with doing a stretch ? none every so often you go inside , its no big deal to em .

1foot says it was tough in the Scrubbs , that's because unlike most he is not a career criminal anybody in his position would find it tough . As for 1foots comment about folk inside having " bad look stories " well my heart bleeds but that doesn't mean you need to rob, murder , rape another person does it ?

 

From what you say, the people you mixed with are what most people would call petty criminals. This thread started off on the subject of hanging; we are clearly talking about major crime here and, I repeat, no murderer or rapist thinks he is going to get caught.

 

As for ignoring the "bad luck stories", I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

 

Yes the thread started on the subject of capital punishment , it has wandered too far from that has it ?

As for mixing with petty criminals , to my shame back in the day manslaughter and rape were the convictions for a couple of the vile folk I used to know so hardly petty .

As for the ignoring the " bad luck stories " I firmly believe I would rather spend my money on victim support rather than prison welfare officers , social workers , prisoner drop in centres etc .

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

It just goes to show a little information with some vital key information missing leads people to all sorts of conclusions, prisons do have civilians working within them, and also contractors when carrying out refurbishment work, together with the normal prison staff you know.

 

;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 11:14 AM

Perhaps you don't believe in trying to prevent things happening in future and are quite happy to carry on locking yourself away in your fortress home while the circumstances that create criminals just carry on. I believe that is called burying your head in the sand.

 

 

The point I was trying to make, is exactly that ;-).......................the do gooders despite having the best of intentions have made the situation worse *-)......................they have taken away the criminals and their families moral compass and replaced it tea and sympathy.............Its no longer their fault they're a thieving git.............its the way they was brung up, or they come from a poor family or a myriad of other excuses *-)...........

 

As an example my older brother was once brought back by the police after falling in with the "wrong crowd".........my mum thanked the policeman and said she would sort it out, she sent me my younger brother and sister upstairs to our flat above the shop...........we heard our mum start belting my brother at the bottom of the stairs...........she hit him all the way up the stairs..........and carried on beating him in our lounge until she sprained her wrist...............she then started kicking him 8-)..................my mum was a 60 fags a day bag of skin bone............my brother used to work out :D

 

Her anger was something terrible to behold................my brother was never brought back by the police again.............neither have any of us kids ever been in trouble with law...............apart from the odd speeding ticket ;-)

 

If she had done that today.................she'd of probably been arrested..........and us kids taken into care (lol)

[Guest Had Enough]

Let me begin by saying that this is one of those debates, like a belief in God, in which there can be no outright winner. There are very many intelligent and informed people who firmly believe that capital punishment is justified and there are an equal number of intelligent and informed people who believe that it can never be justified.

 

However, there is one thing that does confuse me, which is the continuing assertion by the antis that deterrents don't work. Our entire society and its conduct is based on deterrents. Many people behave decently and don't break the law because of the consequences of being caught, not because of deep moral convictions. I've mentioned smuggling before. I used to go to the Far East a lot on business and would often bring back a nice piece of jewellery for my wife or a couple of bespoke suits from a Hong Kong tailor. I never attempted to walk through customs with them because the consequences of being caught and seeing my name in the local papers was too horrible to contemplate!

 

To say that deterrents don't work is, in my opinion, foolish in the extreme. If Dale Cregan was looking at a life sentence but murdering the two policewomen would have given him the death penalty I don't believe he would have done what he did. It gained him nothing except a hard man reputation for when he was behind bars, which wouldn't have bothered him if he knew he would be executed.

 

I can fully understand the 'We are better then them, society must set the example' argument but my take is very different and it's this:

 

If a man sexually tortures and murders several young children he should die. He should die because he deserves to die! By refusing to execute him we are in fact showing that our society is far from civilised. We are saying that no crime is too horrible and whatever a person a person may do to another is only worthy of a relatively comfortable life in prison. That cheapens life in my opinion and sends the message that the criminal is more important than the victim.

 

What does a man have to do before liberals feel that perhaps he too deserves to lose his life? How many children must someone kill for nothing more than his own perverted pleasures? How many Jews or homosexuals or disabled people or gypsies does an evil dictator have to starve and murder before it is decided that his actions deserve the loss of his own life?

 

Is there nothing that some people consider so heinous that the ultimate penalty is necessary?

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-03 12:14 PM

 

It just goes to show a little information with some vital key information missing leads people to all sorts of conclusions, prisons do have civilians working within them, and also contractors when carrying out refurbishment work, together with the normal prison staff you know.

 

;-)

 

Spoil sport :D...............I had you down as a right wrong'un >:-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Symbol Owner - 2013-07-03 11:43 AM

 

pelmetman - 2013-07-03 10:55 AM

Sorry John, but the prison system is run by do gooders like yourself, who think like you do ;-) ...........and the average trainee future career criminal know's it >:-).........so it holds no fear for them.....going to jail is just a occupational hazard..............and means they get to spend more time on the XBox *-).............and learn a few tips on how to be a proper criminal..............Dale Cregan started out as a petty criminal :-|

As so often Dave, you 'know nuffinck' (or very little) on this subject, but air your prejudices all the same.

 

My time 'inside' -- 3 months, (unlike 1foot) was spent ' on the other side' with the probation/prison welfare service in an 'open' prison. I have also visited an old local 'nick' pretty regularly plus occasional visits to 'closed' or secure prisons, i.e. Dartmoor (which fully lives up to its evil reputation). I can assure you that the 'system' was not "Run by do-gooders" then, (70's & 80's) nor, I'm pretty sure, is it now. Prison officers are a strange, hard (neccessarily) & conservative bunch, resistant to change, with a powerful sense of 'us & them' and very sceptical of any attempts at 'reform', either of the system or the individual inmate. The prison 'Governor' class are 'hard-nosed' Civil Servants, who, whilst professing an interest in 'rehabilitation' ( which should surely be the aim of any such institution) are usually despairing of being able to make one jot or tittle of difference to the majority of professional criminals. Like Mike, (1foot) they know full well that support services on the 'outside' are woefully inadequate, due to a succession of governments cutting back on financial support, pandering instead to your Daily Mail fixation on 'banging 'em up' -- even to the degree of ordering/using prison ships to supplement over-full gaols. As for yours and Antony's comments about the supposed 'cushy' life inside -- for your average hard-pressed prison governor there is a fine balance to be struck between the purely 'holding' or punishment aspect of prison life and re-training for release -- plus the need to 'keep a lid' on frequently volatile prison populations -- which can 'explode' with great ferocity into uncontrollable riots, rooftop protests, etc. A bored prison population is a highly dangerous one, so all ways of occupying the inmates (on a painfully thin budget) have to be employed -- so you can sneer at 'X-Boxes' etc. -- they have their uses!

We've moved a bit away from Malcolm's original 'Capital Punishment' thread, but I , too, have read Albert Pierrepoint's autobiography and agree fully with him about the deterrent effect (or not) of the rope.

He attempts to prove that, with his 'scientific' methods, he could ensure that the 'process' itself was less barabaric than previous (basically slow stangulation) methods, but, along with H.E., if we were to return to capital punishment (heaven forbid) then the American use of lethal injection would seem to me to be preferable to any thing else currently available.

 

Colin.

 

P.S. Thanks John 47, you beat me to it -- much more succinctly!

 

C.

 

As you rightly point out Colin, we have had many decades of the right wing authorities being usurped by the left wing enlightened thinkers *-)............and regimes have become soft.............sentences short........result?

 

More people re offending 8-).........................well that worked well then *-)

[John 47]

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 12:12 PM

 

John 47 - 2013-07-03 10:42 AM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 10:15 AM

 

 

You are wrong . My background like 1foots has been " different " to probably most on here and I can tell you the people I have mixed with do not commit crime because they dont think they will get caught , they commit crime because its easy , easy money , easy targets , easy prison stretches that go with the job . They know everybody inside so what's the problem with doing a stretch ? none every so often you go inside , its no big deal to em .

1foot says it was tough in the Scrubbs , that's because unlike most he is not a career criminal anybody in his position would find it tough . As for 1foots comment about folk inside having " bad look stories " well my heart bleeds but that doesn't mean you need to rob, murder , rape another person does it ?

 

From what you say, the people you mixed with are what most people would call petty criminals. This thread started off on the subject of hanging; we are clearly talking about major crime here and, I repeat, no murderer or rapist thinks he is going to get caught.

 

As for ignoring the "bad luck stories", I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

 

Yes the thread started on the subject of capital punishment , it has wandered too far from that has it ?

As for mixing with petty criminals , to my shame back in the day manslaughter and rape were the convictions for a couple of the vile folk I used to know so hardly petty .

As for the ignoring the " bad luck stories " I firmly believe I would rather spend my money on victim support rather than prison welfare officers , social workers , prisoner drop in centres etc .

 

No, I didn't say it had wandered too far; I simply said that my comments were related to the original point. Of course there are habitual criminals who treat incarceration as one of the hazards of the job and prison as a second home but, I repeat, I doubt very much whether many of those who commit murder or rape come into that category.

 

And why does looking after the victims have to compete with understanding criminality and trying to prevent it? They are not mutually exclusive.

[John 47]

pelmetman - 2013-07-03 12:34 PM

 

John 47 - 2013-07-03 11:14 AM

Perhaps you don't believe in trying to prevent things happening in future and are quite happy to carry on locking yourself away in your fortress home while the circumstances that create criminals just carry on. I believe that is called burying your head in the sand.

 

 

The point I was trying to make, is exactly that ;-).......................the do gooders despite having the best of intentions have made the situation worse *-)......................they have taken away the criminals and their families moral compass and replaced it tea and sympathy.............Its no longer their fault they're a thieving git.............its the way they was brung up, or they come from a poor family or a myriad of other excuses *-)...........

 

 

I assume from that you are withdrawing your accusation that I am a "do-gooder". But if you think that criminals are treated now with "tea and sympathy" and encouraged to have no moral compass then you need to get out into the real world a bit more.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Perhaps someone can point to a country that have cracked this whole criminality problem, that would be a step in the right direction.

 

I'm tempted to think with Ian Brady begging to die, and yet being forced fed through a tube we may be doing something right.

[John 47]

Had Enough - 2013-07-03 12:35 PM

 

 

To say that deterrents don't work is, in my opinion, foolish in the extreme. If Dale Cregan was looking at a life sentence but murdering the two policewomen would have given him the death penalty I don't believe he would have done what he did. It gained him nothing except a hard man reputation for when he was behind bars, which wouldn't have bothered him if he knew he would be executed.

 

 

Clearly, my last response to you was too difficult to answer, so you simply repeat the same nonsense. Apart from anything else, how on earth do you know what (if anything) was in Cregan's mind? Most murders are commited in the heat of the moment and by people who are known to the victim - how many of those murderers do you suppose were thinking at the time about whether or not they would be hanged?

[Guest pelmetman]

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-03 12:56 PM

 

Perhaps someone can point to a country that have cracked this whole criminality problem, that would be a step in the right direction.

 

I'm tempted to think with Ian Brady begging to die, and yet being forced fed through a tube we may be doing something right.

 

Singapore ;-)

[antony1969]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 12:51 PM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 12:12 PM

 

John 47 - 2013-07-03 10:42 AM

 

antony1969 - 2013-07-03 10:15 AM

 

 

You are wrong . My background like 1foots has been " different " to probably most on here and I can tell you the people I have mixed with do not commit crime because they dont think they will get caught , they commit crime because its easy , easy money , easy targets , easy prison stretches that go with the job . They know everybody inside so what's the problem with doing a stretch ? none every so often you go inside , its no big deal to em .

1foot says it was tough in the Scrubbs , that's because unlike most he is not a career criminal anybody in his position would find it tough . As for 1foots comment about folk inside having " bad look stories " well my heart bleeds but that doesn't mean you need to rob, murder , rape another person does it ?

 

From what you say, the people you mixed with are what most people would call petty criminals. This thread started off on the subject of hanging; we are clearly talking about major crime here and, I repeat, no murderer or rapist thinks he is going to get caught.

 

As for ignoring the "bad luck stories", I firmly believe that if you understand why someone has been driven to commit a particular crime you may not be able to do anything about that particular individual but it might help to prevent the kind of circumstances that lead to such a crime in the future. But that relies on us learning from our mistakes and history shows we are not very good at that!

 

Yes the thread started on the subject of capital punishment , it has wandered too far from that has it ?

As for mixing with petty criminals , to my shame back in the day manslaughter and rape were the convictions for a couple of the vile folk I used to know so hardly petty .

As for the ignoring the " bad luck stories " I firmly believe I would rather spend my money on victim support rather than prison welfare officers , social workers , prisoner drop in centres etc .

 

No, I didn't say it had wandered too far; I simply said that my comments were related to the original point. Of course there are habitual criminals who treat incarceration as one of the hazards of the job and prison as a second home but, I repeat, I doubt very much whether many of those who commit murder or rape come into that category.

 

And why does looking after the victims have to compete with understanding criminality and trying to prevent it? They are not mutually exclusive.

 

Looking after victims does not compete at all or even come close . Last year more money was spent just on feeding inmates drug habits than victim support , shocking .

First your a victim of crime then all the help goes on that poor little sod that had to break into your house and swipe everything you've worked all your life for .

 

[Guest Had Enough]

John 47 - 2013-07-03 1:00 PM

 

Had Enough - 2013-07-03 12:35 PM

 

 

To say that deterrents don't work is, in my opinion, foolish in the extreme. If Dale Cregan was looking at a life sentence but murdering the two policewomen would have given him the death penalty I don't believe he would have done what he did. It gained him nothing except a hard man reputation for when he was behind bars, which wouldn't have bothered him if he knew he would be executed.

 

 

Clearly, my last response to you was too difficult to answer, so you simply repeat the same nonsense. Apart from anything else, how on earth do you know what (if anything) was in Cregan's mind? Most murders are commited in the heat of the moment and by people who are known to the victim - how many of those murderers do you suppose were thinking at the time about whether or not they would be hanged?

 

I don't recollect you asking me a question in your last response to me, what was it?

 

The murder of the two policewomen wasn't in the heat of the moment! It was carefully planned and cooly executed. Of course we don't know for sure what was in Cregan's mind but what we do know is that he was aware that, whatever he did, no matter how many women he murdered, he would still serve the sentence that he knew he was already going to serve; a reasonably comfortable life in prison with the liberals who are responsible for him living encouraging him to sue if he has to slop out or can't get access to his favourite porn mags.

 

It is a reasonable assumption for anyone not totally blinded by his automatic liberalism, that he may well have thought twice about committing an act that gained him nothing but would have attracted his own execution.

 

Dale Cregan deserves to die for what he did. Our society is anything but civilised if we think that no crime, no loss of innocent life deserves the ultimate sanction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Whilst I don't disagree that such crimes are simply beyond the pail, I don't necessarily see a quick snap of the vertebrae as being the ultimate sanction, perhaps if life meant life that may, just may prevent some of these crimes, who knows, but given that many lifers attempt and some succeed in suicide bids, Fred West comes to mind, many it would seem to regard life imprisonment as an easy option is simply not the case., yes you'd get revenge, but the uncomfortable truth is you have then acted in the same manner as they did, if the ones demanding the death penalty were happy to carry it out themselves on a regular basis I wonder ultimately how that would sit with them day to day.

 

It will be very interesting to see what punishment will be meted out to the killer of the soldier in London.

 

And here's another interesting conundrum, why is taking the life of people through dangerous driving almost regarded as some fairly petty crime.

 

 

 

 

[antony1969]

1footinthegrave - 2013-07-03 2:21 PM

 

Whilst I don't disagree that such crimes are simply beyond the pail, I don't necessarily see a quick snap of the vertebrae as being the ultimate sanction, perhaps if life meant life that may, just may prevent some of these crimes, who knows, but given that many lifers attempt and some succeed in suicide bids, Fred West comes to mind, many it would seem to regard life imprisonment as an easy option is simply not the case., yes you'd get revenge, but the uncomfortable truth is you have then acted in the same manner as they did, if the ones demanding the death penalty were happy to carry it out themselves on a regular basis I wonder ultimately how that would sit with them day to day.

 

It will be very interesting to see what punishment will be meted out to the killer of the soldier in London.

 

And here's another interesting conundrum, why is taking the life of people through dangerous driving almost regarded as some fairly petty crime.

 

 

 

 

Demanding the death penalty does not mean you have to feel comfortable with carrying out the execution yourself .

I eat meat but it does not mean I want to kill , gut , skin the beast before I eat it , somebody else quite happily does that job for me and leaves me happy I've got a nice steak on my plate just as I would be happy for someone to hang murderers and rapists and peadophiles , it would leave me all warm and happy inside .