rugdoctor Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I will try to cover as many points as possible: Firstly let me apologise for SHOUTING, but I have been pleading with John Cross since October to come and inspect my awning to no avail. 1) When ever I use my awning it is always spring strapped, and twin pegged. The strap was removed before lowering the legs. 2) I am very much and belt and braces person and as far as I could see I was the only person on the site to bother to bring their awnings in pending rain. 3) I have been using FIAMMA awnings now for 20 years and if I was doing anything wrong I would of found out before now i think dont you? It is not a coincidence that this has happened on a brand new awning. The issue is with the new design top snap in nylon swivel arm fixing on top of the leg coming out of its housing or was it ever pressed in place properly in manufacture. 4) The awning has to be fastened back in position with plastic ties. 5) The front leg came out of the fastening as I was lowering the rear leg, about 20 inches of the point of break. I am not a heavy handed person, just the opposite in fact. I am used to tenting framework etc as well of having a motorhome we have been campers for 45 years. 6) :-) Lastly to all of those who have tried to understand my problem and have given advice, thank you. :$ And to all of those who think I am a clumsy ham fisted fool. I do hope you never have a malfunction with any of your purchases, but if you do I hope you get the customer service you deserve up until my present experience I would also have recommended FIAMMA - and John Cross. Lastly my local repair shop was in no way to blame for this malfunction, they have always given me 1st classs service. George Reay Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Apologies, but you didn't describe it very well. I wasn't aware that Fiamma had changed their 'Well proven' and quite robust swivel leg fitting. I don't like the sound of 'Snap in' . It gives the impression of an ' interruption fitting' which on a product like this requires something more robust.Can you give us a picture ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 http://www.fiamma.com/EN/service/spares/?spares_ID=2&page=1 If this is the correct awning, which part is damaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hi George.. That's a more "measured" post than the first one.. ;-) .. but I(and others by the sounds) am still not sure which component you are actually referring to. Probably not helped by the fact it's been a few years since we've had a Fiamma(currently got an Omnistor, so can't picture which bit you mean). As has been said , can you post a photo or identify it on a parts diagram?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 rugdoctor - 2014-01-24 4:48 PM I have been pleading with John Cross since October to come and inspect my awning to no avail I can really appreciate how annoying all of this is but you cannot expect JC to come to you to check the awning - you could always go to them? Unfortunately regardless of what you buy and from whom this is the norm. :-S The issue is with the new design top snap in nylon swivel arm fixing on top of the leg coming out of its housing or was it ever pressed in place properly in manufacture The front leg came out of the fastening as I was lowering the rear leg, about 20 inches of the point of break. I assume you're talking about the 'new' joint in the picture below? If you could say what height the rear leg was at and what height the front leg was at when it 'popped out' would clarify things a bit. I still don't fully understand what occurred especially as you say "20 inches of the point of break" ... so I'm not sure what you are describing? Unfortunately I think your only option is to go to JC yourself and show them the awning and demonstrate exactly what you were doing when it happened so they can see for themselves. Another option, rather than going to their premises, might be arrange for a member of their staff to view it at one of the shows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Mel B - 2014-01-24 7:19 PM rugdoctor - 2014-01-24 4:48 PM I have been pleading with John Cross since October to come and inspect my awning to no avail I can really appreciate how annoying all of this is but you cannot expect JC to come to you to check the awning - you could always go to them? Unfortunately regardless of what you buy and from whom this is the norm. :-S .................................. I agree Mel. George, you've started two strings on this, which is a little unhelpful. It seems the awning should still be under warranty, so take it to John's Cross, let them inspect it, and describe to them exactly how it came to break. It is impossible for anyone to guess what happened, and I'm afraid your description doesn't paint that clear a picture. Personally, I can't understand how, on the strength of pictures alone, anyone would be able to diagnose storm damage unless the pictures show some clear evidence that the swivel had somehow been overloaded. If you can post them on here it may help us to understand. However, if you don't respond to posts asking for more information, I think we're probably all wasting our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I still don't follow George. I've looked at the videos and that how I work mine. BUT I would never use those body brackets. If someone nudged one of the arms upwards or the wind lifted the awning up its likely to push up the finger tight brackets on the body brackets causing the whole canopy to collapse. Back to the awning. I don't think anyone is suggesting you're clumsy its a matter of seeing where the problem is. The video shows a leg being angled out of its housing and it looks fairly standard ... Q Is that where the problem is ? I don't understand 4 "The awning has to be fastened back in position with plastic ties. Q Is that before you lower a leg. I don't understand 5 The front leg came out of the fastening as I was lowering the rear leg, about 20 inches of the point of break. If the weight of the awning is pressing down on the leg how can it come out of the fastening. Was it swinging loose then? ---------------------------- Starting from the beginning if the awning is wound out about 2-3 feet and one leg is angled out and raised to take the weight of the awning (similar to the video). Then the second leg is angled out and raised I fail to see how a breakage of damage can occur. I'm not adding any more to the fiasco sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 George, I'm trying to get some sleep thinking of your darned awning. I'm not interested in what you did so please don't explain. Assume I know nothing, now George you have a problem. An awning comes in 8 basic parts. 1 A long box or casing 2 A flexible canopy or roof 3 Two angled canopy supports 4 Two adjustable metal support legs 5 A length of trunking 6 A winding handle What item is damaged indicate a number 1 - 6 How is it damaged. 1 Bent 2 Broken 3 Fallen apart. Indicate 1 - 3 Can you still wind the awning in and out. Yes or no Can you wind everything back into the casing. Yes or no Have you got any items left over. Yes or no If yes then buy a spare and refit If no then drive to a supplier and ask their opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Error .. There's no angled roof supports is there ... those are on our house awning ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 not sure what planet your from but why do you keep on about JC not attending your premises for an inspection? they did not fit, only supplied....your responsibility to take it to the supplier..thats real life Im afraid. I though mine was so damaged once that it needed replacing, but supplying dealer repaired with new parts and it cost 200€ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I honestly cannot see any future in trying to decide exactly how George’s awning became damaged. George’s earlier posting stated that photos of the damage had been sent to the awning's vendor (Johns Cross Motorcaravan and Camping Centre) by George’s local repair centre who had fitted the awning to the motorhome. JCM&CC decided, on the basis of the photos, that the awning had been storm-damaged. The photos were copied to FIAMMA who supported JCM&CC’s diagnosis. As things stand, although George knows full well that JCM&CC’s diagnosis was wrong, his awning will not be replaced or repaired under warranty unless he can convince JCM&CC that the damage was not storm-related. As the awning was purchased from JCM&CC, FIAMMA is not directly involved. I’m guessing from George’s Forum-Profile details that there’s a 200+ miles distance between where he lives and JCM&CC. If that’s correct, it will explain why JCM&CC has refused to visit George to inspect the damaged awning, and why George hasn’t been proactive and visited JCM&CC. As things stand, I can’t envisage JCM&CC making a ‘house call’, so (as has been advised above) the only realistic hope of George succeeding with an under-warranty claim would be to grit his teeth and take his motorhome to JCM&CC for inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugdoctor Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Sorry Mel I am not very good on the computer ,Your picture is correct ,it is the pin at the top of the leg that popped out of the plastic housing on the corner joint front leg as i was lowering the rear leg. I had lowered the rear leg about approx 18 inches when it parted ' I was not able to go to J CROSS as i had a accident on the motorway in my motorhome on my way home from my holiday a head on with a driver on the wrong side of the M54 coming towards me .I nearly missed her but not quite still no serious injuries to anybody and not much to my motorhome but her car was a right off GEORGE REAY BOY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 rugdoctor - 2014-01-25 3:03 PM Sorry Mel I am not very good on the computer ,Your picture is correct ,it is the pin at the top of the leg that popped out of the plastic housing on the corner joint front leg as i was lowering the rear leg. I had lowered the rear leg about approx 18 inches when it parted ' I was not able to go to J CROSS as i had a accident on the motorway in my motorhome on my way home from my holiday a head on with a driver on the wrong side of the M54 coming towards me .I nearly missed her but not quite still no serious injuries to anybody and not much to my motorhome but her car was a right off GEORGE REAY BOY Bloody hell ! makes problems with the awning fade into insigificance doesn't it ? What was she BLIND ! Didn't she wonder why ALL the other vehicles were coming toward her ? Anyway. I think I now understand what happened ? (think) Your Awning is a 'New' style F45S ? This model (from Mel's picture, and parts breakdown) has a plastic/nylon Grey swivel P/N 98655-550 AND a seperate metal part, the Shaft P/N 98655-552. This is an 'Snap-in' fit into the Plastic Swivel. (and obviously not 'Man Enough' for the strains put upon it). MY previous awning was an F45 ti The Leg swivel for that is in One piece P/N 98655-056 which is alluminium and (imho) a far more sturdy piece of engineering. Don't know if these parts are interchagable ?? but if they are, I would fit the older style as a precaution to it happening again. Your Problem : I would Remove the whole awning and take it back to Johns Cross. They are only mounted on Brackets onto the side of the van. You would need at least two of you to do it though. Or get your guy who fitted it, to remove it for you. When you get it back, point out the differances above, and the 'weakness' of the design, AND the resulting damage to the canopy struts, when it fails, as yours did. Perhaps, as it is a new design they havn't seen damage caused like yours before ?? quite possible. let us all know how you get on. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Is it possible if the pin (98655-552) has not been fully extracted and the upright leg turned to position a strain would be put on the plastic housing causing the pin to "pop" out? How this caused damage to the complete awning I am at a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-01-25 5:41 PM Is it possible if the pin (98655-552) has not been fully extracted and the upright leg turned to position a strain would be put on the plastic housing causing the pin to "pop" out? How this caused damage to the complete awning I am at a loss. From what I 'imagine' may have happened, as George was taking one leg down, the other one suddenly 'popped' off the awning completely, therefore that end of the awning would have flopped down quickly and sharply thus putting a lot of strain on the awning arm itself, lowering it to a position it would not normally have been intended to be, and thus in the process the 'strain' of this twisted the arm. Again, as for the cable ties holding teh awning back ... I would again imagine that the twisted arm now doesn't retract correctly therefore the awning cannot be fully closed hence the need for the cable ties to hold it in place ... :-S ... that's my theory anyway! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-01-25 2:56 PM I’m guessing from George’s Forum-Profile details that there’s a 200+ miles distance between where he lives and JCM&CC. If that’s correct, it will explain why JCM&CC has refused to visit George to inspect the damaged awning, and why George hasn’t been proactive and visited JCM&CC. As things stand, I can’t envisage JCM&CC making a ‘house call’, so (as has been advised above) the only realistic hope of George succeeding with an under-warranty claim would be to grit his teeth and take his motorhome to JCM&CC for inspection. Hence why I previously suggested that George visit Dave Newell nearby, assuming JC are willing to accept Dave's 'professional view' on the matter, and Dave himself is willing to look at it. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Whatever the extent and reasons for the 'failure' the 'nylon' fitting for the leg pin (as shown in the previous photo) looks like a pretty crap design to me. It looks very weak. I should imagine it wouldn't take much force for the leg locating pin to 'pop' out. Hopefully the OP gets this resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugdoctor Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Thanks Mel you are spot on the front extending arm has twisted as the front dipped .As yet i am not in a position to go to JOHN CROSS, but my local repair workshop ENTERPRISE HADLEY TELFORD who fitted the awning for me is offered to carry out the repairs for 60 quide, result NOW THATS WHAT I CALL CUSTOMER SERVICE. and i will carry out a modification myself as to avoid this happening again . When you report a malfuction on newly purchased expensive equipment and the retailer refuses to believe what has happened dismisses your complaint it is insulting and is as good as calling you a liar , that is just not good enough .. thanks guys and galls i will not be making any further comment now ,just to say GOOD CAMPING god bless you all GEORGE REAY BOY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Mel B - 2014-01-25 8:15 PM.............From what I 'imagine' may have happened, as George was taking one leg down, the other one suddenly 'popped' off the awning completely, therefore that end of the awning would have flopped down quickly and sharply thus putting a lot of strain on the awning arm itself, lowering it to a position it would not normally have been intended to be, and thus in the process the 'strain' of this twisted the arm. Again, as for the cable ties holding teh awning back ... I would again imagine that the twisted arm now doesn't retract correctly therefore the awning cannot be fully closed hence the need for the cable ties to hold it in place .............. George seems to have accepted your description, Mel, so it seems a good shot. However, the description of legs down/up still confuses me! :-) What you describe above implies that George was actually retracting the awning, meaning he would be raising the legs to their folded, travelling position, tucked behind the lead rail. This seems to be what George has accepted. If so, the main reason for the arm to bend when the remaining leg popped its hinge, would seem be if it was windy and it caught a strong gust, or if the awning was fully extended when the legs were being folded away. If the latter is possible, it is an extremely unwise practise. It may also go some way to explain why one leg "popped" its hinge while the other was being folded away, as doing this with the awning fully extended would cause considerable twisting of the remaining hinge. Can't comment on Fiamma, as we have only had Omnistor awnings to date, but the underlying principles of both are very similar. Omni clearly say not to extend the awning by more than one metre before lowering the legs. The implication is to re-wind the awning to within one metre of the van when retracting it, and only then to fold away the legs. This usually means winding it part way and then adjusting the leg position and length, at least once, to get to one metre from the van without leaving the legs dangling from the lead rail. The lead rail needs to be fully supported by the legs until it is within one metre of the side of the van. Only then should the legs be folded away. With only one metre of awning extended, or less if windy, the sudden drop of one end of the awning that you describe cannot happen. I don't know if this is what George was doing, but if not, he may wish to consider adopting this technique in future to eliminate any chance of a repeat performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugdoctor Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 BRIAN i have said before their was no wind the leg just popped out sharpish and the awning dipped sharpish .this realy is my last word GEORGE REAY BOY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I have looked at my own FIAMMA awning and if the support leg is rotated downwards without the pin being totally extracted then I can easily see how the pin can be moved out of where it should be and then any other pressure can cause it to pop out. Find it difficult to understand how it just popped out itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsymu Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Hi Brian I have been following this post with interest so are you saying everybody needs to carry a pair of steps to do this because we couldn't reach to put the legs in or out if it was only wound out one metre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 If the OP so convinced that he can demonstrate the good are at fault, he should have sent a letter of intent giving them 14 days under the sales of goods act to replace, or else you will be taking them to the small claims court (£50) Thats what I do in these situations and it tends to work. my Thule omni bike rack was replaced in a few weeks by these means, and I have countless examples from over the years and have not been to court once....If they see you are serious and not prepared to put up with being fobbed off it tends to engage their thought processes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Brian, I think you are over-complicating this! :-S Brian Kirby - 2014-01-26 1:22 PM Mel B - 2014-01-25 8:15 PM.............From what I 'imagine' may have happened, as George was taking one leg down, the other one suddenly 'popped' off the awning completely, therefore that end of the awning would have flopped down quickly and sharply thus putting a lot of strain on the awning arm itself, lowering it to a position it would not normally have been intended to be, and thus in the process the 'strain' of this twisted the arm. George seems to have accepted your description, Mel, so it seems a good shot. However, the description of legs down/up still confuses me! :-) What you describe above implies that George was actually retracting the awning, meaning he would be raising the legs to their folded, travelling position, tucked behind the lead rail. This seems to be what George has accepted. Nope, it doesn't .... it just means that he had lowered a leg! :D Brian Kirby - 2014-01-26 1:22 PM If so, the main reason for the arm to bend when the remaining leg popped its hinge, would seem be if it was windy and it caught a strong gust, or if the awning was fully extended when the legs were being folded away. If the latter is possible, it is an extremely unwise practise. It may also go some way to explain why one leg "popped" its hinge while the other was being folded away, as doing this with the awning fully extended would cause considerable twisting of the remaining hinge. From what George has stated, and my deductions too, it seems that he had started to put the awning away by lowering a leg, which to me at least implies that he had the lowered leg in contact with the ground (or in his sticky mitts!) thus still providing support to the awning. It would appear that this is the exact time when the other leg 'popped out' - no wind, gust, storm, 'act of God' - it just made a 'bid' for freedom! If my assumptions are correct, which they appear to be, then George had the awning fully extended and had only PARTLY lowered the leg located at the outer front edge of the awning towards the rear end of the van, leaving the other leg located at the outer front edge of the awning at the front end of the van still in it's full heigh position which is how we do it too, but we have an F45 awning, not the old style F45S or the new F45S. If it is anything like us, we adopt the following procedure: - lower the rear outer leg by about 12-18 inches so if looking at the side of the van the awning would have a slope downwards from the front end towards the back-end - then lower the front outer leg by another 12-18 inches which brings the awning outer level with the previously lowered bit - wind the awning in until only about a metre is left out and then we can safely totally reduce one of the legs and tuck it away in the casing, followed by the other. If this is DEFINITELY the case then IMV this new 'joint' seems to be questionable and looking at the design I have reservations as to how good a hold it would have too, with a great big slot down the side! It is a plastic material after all which will have some 'give' in it and may also allow more 'play/twist' in the joint that the more rigid original design type. I do think that George should still get it carefully examined by JC when he next has the opportunity and if the joint is found to be not 'fit for purpose' then this should be fed back to Fiamma who, in the end, should pick up the tab for the repair but until then we can't be sure, however, if the joint is not of an appropriate design, I'm sure we will hear of more of these occurrences ... only time will tell. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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