Reverse judder/clutch problem - all Sevel models?

[rupert123]

PeteH - 2016-11-13 6:20 AM

 

rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM

 

My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill?

 

Please be aware that, the issues I posted ARE actual. "judder" per se, Is not the problem, getting the right option and or "fix" for the issues which are ongoing IS, and was the reason for "bumping" the thread to see if more recent information was available!.

 

I would also respectfully point out that I am no "weekend" driver. I Hold a Class 1 LGV. and over a 50+ year career have an unblemished record.!!. There will be few on here who can reverse a wagon and drawbar trailer the length of a Ro-Ro Ferry!. I have driven just about anything you care to name including Classic Armoured Fighting vehicles. So I do not think "Experience" is an issue!.

 

Edit:- ALSO. I note that your Vehicle is the 2.2 5speed, which My own information suggests are LESS affected if not entirely devoid of the issue?. I am concerned with the 2.3 6 speed vehicle.

 

Pete

Thats as maybe but the original poster is talking about a 2.2, 5 speed so you why go on about the 2.3, 6 speed?

[Rayjsj]

rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM

 

My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill?

Rupert, I believe that you crossed swords with the Stodherts before over this ? Remember them ? They had

an X/250 van conversion that juddered so much that it destroyed its gearbox ! They HAD to reverse a long way up a hill to make way for a tractor. Just saying a problem didnt exist, doesnt mean it didnt.

[arthur49]

In early 2009 (2008 manufacture) my 2.3 6 speed x250 didn't judder but the reverse gear ratio was far too high, which meant it was necessary to slip the clutch all the time in reverse. On one occasion I had to reverse up a moderate hill in the Western Isles - no room to turn round at bottom of hill - by the time I got to the top, all of say 30/40 metres, the clutch was cooking.

So I reported a judder when I got home because the clutch was definitely being damaged. New engine mounts and a lower reverse gear (or final drive, not sure which) and some other mods I can't recall, and it was greatly improved. It was definitely slower in reverse and the need to slip the clutch greatly reduced.

I love the x250s. Mine never did judder but I've seen others that did. No amount of 'good driving' would have improved my driving experience in 2009

[Steve928]

rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM

 

My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill?

 

There's a word for people who remain entrenched in their beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

My 2.2 5 speed wouldn't reverse up even a moderate gradient without violently shaking the van's structure. I found such a gradient quite easy to find, thanks, and all combinations of revs and clutch bite etc. were explored.

The lower reverse gear that Peugeot chose to fit, outside of warranty and at a cost to them of £1800, made reversing uphill possible.

[rupert123]

Rayjsj - 2016-11-13 10:44 AM

 

rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM

 

My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill?

Rupert, I believe that you crossed swords with the Stodherts before over this ? Remember them ? They had

an X/250 van conversion that juddered so much that it destroyed its gearbox ! They HAD to reverse a long way up a hill to make way for a tractor. Just saying a problem didnt exist, doesnt mean it didnt.

 

Yep, in fact I still exchange insults with Andy around Christmas time but why do I keep having to repeat this. The original poster is asking about a 2.2 5 speed, Andys's was a 2.3 6 speed, what part of that is to complicated to understand?

[rupert123]

Steve928 - 2016-11-13 3:54 PM

 

rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM

 

My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill?

 

There's a word for people who remain entrenched in their beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

My 2.2 5 speed wouldn't reverse up even a moderate gradient without violently shaking the van's structure. I found such a gradient quite easy to find, thanks, and all combinations of revs and clutch bite etc. were explored.

The lower reverse gear that Peugeot chose to fit, outside of warranty and at a cost to them of £1800, made reversing uphill possible.

What evidence? I can only repeat what I found with mine and IT DID NOT JUDDER. Now I would assume they were all built to the same specification so the only explanation is learn to drive. Now we are all brilliant drivers are we not so this cannot be a possible explanation in your eyes but why not, just accept some are more brilliant than others.

[PeteH]

At the risk of repeating myself, I found this thread where the OP appeared to be asking about issues with SEVAL group? vehicles. (quote:- Does it apply irrespective of engine size. vehicle wheelbase and 5 or 6 speed gearbox? )

 

I am experiencing ACTUAL issues NOT theoretical, And I am looking for INFORMATION. Ergo, I posted to see if further updated? info; was on offer.

 

So far this has seemingly ONLY produced sarcastic comment about "others" driving abilities?. And nothing of any substance to assist in my endeavours to get an equitable solution to the issues I am having.

 

I HAVE had the 6th gear "repair". I HAVE had 2 New clutches. Despite the fact that the worst gradient I have to reverse (or drive) up or down is probably no greater that 6inches nor longer than 6 feet!. I have currently to hold the gear lever for several seconds BEFORE it decided to enter 5th gear regardless of whether I am changing up or Down. I was in the 4 Mile queue, Monday last to exit from the M25 to A1M (South Mimms), and experienced constant forward Judder in 1st gear. (in fact it was actually better trying to start in 2nd, but not something I would normally advise!). AND it DOES Lock into reverse, taking sometimes several movement of clutch, brake and even stopping and restarting the engine to make it release back into neutral.

 

The vehicle is now back in the hands of the Dealership from which it was purchased in April 2015, who are endeavouring once again to rectify the issues.

 

I hope this will "inform" those who are in denial that the issues with second owner X250 exist, that the problem is "out there" and until a solution be found is unlikely to go away. As other have said there must be a fair few kicking about with similar issues potentially, and NOTHING to do with the manner in which they are driven. A well built vehicle should not exhibit the kind of issues being reported in under 60000miles, even if abused!. We had vehicles with a quarter million miles on them with different drivers each day which have seen no issues.

 

Pete

 

 

[Steve928]

rupert123 - 2016-11-13 4:32 PM

 

What evidence? I can only repeat what I found with mine and IT DID NOT JUDDER. Now I would assume they were all built to the same specification so the only explanation is learn to drive. Now we are all brilliant drivers are we not so this cannot be a possible explanation in your eyes but why not, just accept some are more brilliant than others.

 

If you wish to dismiss my experience and rank your own above it, rest upon unprovable assumptions and determine single outcomes then I can do nothing to prevent that. Although I'd prefer not to stoop to your low level, as you continue to insult other peoples' ability and experience, you Sir are a bigot and not worthy of further discussion.

[brom]

I think the assumption that all examples were the same, as the spec. was identical - and that therefore, as yours didn't judder, it must all have been in the mind, is flawed.

 

I drove at least twenty or more different Sevel-based vans during the 'Judder Years', and they varied considerably. The least likely to be affected, in my experience were lightweight, (3300kg or below) short and medium wheelbase vans, especially those with the 100bhp engine and 5-speed box. However, Andy Stothert's was a medium wheelbase, and that certainly was afflicted.

 

The worst I ever drove was a Pioneer Peugeot 120bhp coachbuilt, which I took to a modest hill (the one outside the C&CC site at Ratherheath, Windermere, if anyone knows it), and tried reverse. It wouldn't go anywhere, it just sat and shuddered. I had to desist to avoid wrecking the clutch, which smelt of burnt cheese!

 

Some 120bhp and 3-litre vans were on the maxi chassis and 16inch wheels, which changed the gearing somewhat, but even then, some juddered badly, and some were better. We always tried to find a clear hill where we could reverse safely, and we found that most had some degree of trouble - but not all.

 

I never could understand why the Sevel reverse gear was so high - that always seemed key to me. Surely a crawler-type reverse, so you could go backwards slowly, would have been far safer. One of the problems we found was that, if you released the clutch fully, the van would rocket off backwards, so to maintain some decorum and control, you needed to slip the clutch, even on the level. Doing that on a steep hill was likely to cause damage.

 

I'm very sorry to hear of the continuing problems some are suffering. I do not believe it is down in any way to their inferior driving skills.

[Derek Uzzell]

PeteH - 2016-11-12 9:02 PM

 

Hi.

 

To "Bump" this thread as an update:-

 

As the owner (April 2015) of a 2007 X250 based Version. I have (so far ) had the Gearbox 6th gear issue dealt with and a "NEW" clutch (Twice). The vehicle is currently in the hands of the Dealer (8days after I received it back). For further investigation, as now I have not been able to engage 5th gear, and have had the "box Jambed in reverse twice in that short period.

 

I understand that there is (was) a series of fixes for this issue "offered" by Fiat?. But I can find no material on this. So can anyone update me?.

 

Pete

 

In this June 2016 discussion

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-x250-gearbox-issues/42087/

 

I said that I was not aware that there had been ‘general’ problems with the 6tth-gear of Ducato X250s. This view was echoed by Nick Fisher (euroserv) who has comprehensive knowledge and practical experience of Ducatos (unlike Honest John, where the information is often less trustworthy than a horoscope.)

 

There are some enormously long forum threads about the ‘juddering’ issue (example here)

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Peugeot-Citroen-transmission-defect-5-/17666/

 

but my understanding is that two levels of modification were offered to Ducato X250 owners that complained about juddering.

 

Modification A was applied when the juddering was considered (by Fiat) to be minor, and comprised replacement engine-mountings and an ECU software revision.

 

Modification B (for more serious cases) involved replacing parts in the gearbox to provide a lower reverse-gear ratio and (I believe) a replacement clutch. I don’t think the final-drive ratio was altered, nor that Fiat was prepared to offer a replacement gearbox (unless the vehicle’s gearbox was badly damaged, of course).

 

The ‘mods’ are referred to in the contemporary magazine articles shown here

 

http://www.seered.co.uk/fiat.htm

 

 

[PeteH]

 

Thank you Derek, Your input is more in keeping with what I am looking for, I now have some information with which to hopefully enlighten the dealership concerned. ie that there are at least some avenues for them to consider ie (A&B). and especially as to if (or not) my unit has ever been "modified".

 

I am far less interested in whether or not levels of driving skills have anything to do with it!. I am to long in the tooth and FAR to experienced to be (to put it politely) Ar***ed with such discussion!.

 

Have a Good Day, (as the "cousins" would say!.)

 

Pete

 

 

[PeteH]

PeteH - 2016-11-13 7:42 PM

 

 

Thank you Derek, Your input is more in keeping with what I am looking for, I now have some information with which to hopefully enlighten the dealership concerned. ie that there are at least some avenues for them to consider ie (A&B). and especially as to if (or not) my unit has ever been "modified".

 

I am far less interested in whether or not levels of driving skills have anything to do with it!. I am to long in the tooth and FAR to experienced to be (to put it politely) Ar***ed with such discussion!.

 

Have a Good Day, (as the "cousins" would say!.)

 

 

Pete

 

 

Update:-. Phone call to-day from Dealership. The Gearbox was stripped, and the Crown wheel and main-shaft, plus other parts are defective. A complete rebuild will get under way with correct parts when received from Fiat. Allegedly the "excess float" caused by the defects are responsible for the inability to engage gear(s) and the jambing in reverse?.

 

Not really what I expect from a 37K mile gearbox. However we shall see if the reconditioning provides the solution to our woe`s?. Fortunately it was discovered whilst still covered by the dealer warranty.

 

Pete.

 

 

[PeteH]

PeteH - 2016-11-18 4:58 PM

 

PeteH - 2016-11-13 7:42 PM

 

 

Thank you Derek, Your input is more in keeping with what I am looking for, I now have some information with which to hopefully enlighten the dealership concerned. ie that there are at least some avenues for them to consider ie (A&B). and especially as to if (or not) my unit has ever been "modified".

 

I am far less interested in whether or not levels of driving skills have anything to do with it!. I am to long in the tooth and FAR to experienced to be (to put it politely) Ar***ed with such discussion!.

 

Have a Good Day, (as the "cousins" would say!.)

 

 

Pete

 

 

Update:-. Phone call to-day from Dealership. The Gearbox was stripped, and the Crown wheel and main-shaft, plus other parts are defective. A complete rebuild will get under way with correct parts when received from Fiat. Allegedly the "excess float" caused by the defects are responsible for the inability to engage gear(s) and the jambing in reverse?.

 

Not really what I expect from a 37K mile gearbox. However we shall see if the reconditioning provides the solution to our woe`s?. Fortunately it was discovered whilst still covered by the dealer warranty.

 

Pete.

 

 

 

Further update:-

 

Collected the M-H Friday am. Drove it home 70+miles, towing the car, and the first results are favourable, It no longer judders in first, nor fails to engage gears, Serious reversing has yet to be attempted, as the time frame was tight to get it into storage. The gear shift no longer rocks back and forth in 6th. The dealership has done a substantial road test (120m by my reckoning) over the last couple of days. So now we are into the "proving" period. The previous "repair". having lasted a mere 4600Miles.

 

For the technically minded, Having looked at the Crown wheel and main gear shaft it is evident that the cluster was rocking noticeably on the spline`s, and serious wear of the splines themselves is evident, this would make shifting more difficult in itself. The likely (initial) cause being vibration induced by frequent reversing (judder) over a period of time?. Shafts of this nature are usually only surface hardened (induction hardening) once the hardened surface is breached, wear accelerates very quickly.

 

As this is 3rd owner vehicle according to DVLA. It could be likely that one of the previous owners had to habitually reverse up a steep driveway or similar? and was forced per-se to suffer the judder?.

 

Pete

[Derek Uzzell]

Pete

 

I was under the impression that your 2007 Rapido motorhome had a reconditioned gearbox fitted in late-2015. If that’s so, then whatever transmission-related issues previous owners of your motorhome might have had would not have affected the replacement gearbox.

[StuartO]

My X244 (second generation) ducato-based 2006 Hymer suffered a serious gearbox failure very soon after delivery, moving slowly on level ground in a forward gear, so nothing to do with reverse shudder.  But after a new gearbox was fitted I did notice that reversing up almost any sort of incline resulted in clutch slip and judder - in one case accompanied by lots of smoke and a burning smell - so I've been  careful when reversing ever since and I do not attempt to reverse uphill when I can avoid it.  Fortunately the clutch survived my learning curve and eleven years later the original clutch is still going strong.

 

My impression is that the reverse gear is far too high.  It seems to be a significantly higher ratio that first gear for example, when I would expect it to be lower.  Am I right? 

[Derek Uzzell]

Stuart

 

Logically one might anticipate that a vehicle’s reverse-gear ratio ought to lower (higher numerically) than the 1st gear ratio as it’s more challenging to reverse slowly than driving forwards and - because it will be done less often - a driver will be less practised at it.

 

However (as I’ve said in the past) not only did the technical data for the FWD Ford Transit on which my previous Hobby motorhome was based indicate a higher-than1st reverse-gear, this factor was easily detected when the vehicle was driven.

 

This link

 

http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/technical_specification.html

 

is to a webpage providing the technical specification of Ducato X250s when they were introduced in mid-2006.

 

There’s a (critical) mistake in the ratio data for the 120 Multijet (which suggests that the reverse-gear is lower than 1st) but it will be noted that reverse-gear for 100 Multijet and 160 Multijet Power models is shown as higher than 1st gear.

 

My understanding is that this was also true fot the preceding generation of Ducatos (like yours) with reverse being about 10% higher than 1st.

 

A GOOGLE-search on “reverse gear higher than first” suggests that this technical characteristic is not particularly rare.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=reverse+gear+higher+than+first

 

 

[StuartO]

I remember when my Dad had bought his first car, a twelve year old 1931 Standard Big Nine, on an outing which involved climbing Honister Pass in the Lakes, we were all ordered out to walk up the hill because the car couldn't manage it with the family on board.  I also remember that there was discussion among the grown ups at the time that Dad's option of last resort would be to reverse up the hill, because the lowest available gear was reverse - so I've taken it for granted from the age of about eight that reverse was always the lowest gear on a vehicle.  Clearly that's not so but it's funny how these early-assimilated bits of accepted wisdom stick in the brain!

 

I reckon that reverse on my 2.8 JTD Ducato chassis is far too high for a motorhome application, especially with an A Class Hymer mounted on it, which means it will always be running at more or less maxium weight.  It's also too high a gear to allow you to manoeuvre in reverse without slipping the clutch because at idling engine speed in reverse you are moving far too fast for safe close-quarters manoeuvring.

 

I suppose the gear ratio of reverse on the Ducato is optimised for it's primary role as a relatively lightly-loaded van or alternatively that the internal dimensions of the gearbox or of its combination of other gear cogs and shafts dictates a higher reverse gear than might otherwise be chosen.

 

Not the end of the world; for the number of times you are doing uphill or difficult reversing, I can managed well enough slipping the clutch to control speed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I can offer no credible explanation as to why so high a reverse-gear ratio was apparently chosen for early X250 gearboxes, but the fact that it was subsequently possible to retrofit a lower ratio to the original gearbox of those Boxers/Ducatos that were particularly juddery shows that there was room within the gearbox to do this.

 

Andy Stothert (whose on-line comments triggered the UK juddering furore) owned a Ducato panel-van conversion (PVC) with 2.3litre motor and 6-speed transmission, and the circumstances that caused the gearbox to break were fairly extreme.

 

Fiat's X250-related advertisements stated that “specific gear ratios were defined for optimised performance on a motorhome” and I always interpreted that statement (if there were any truth in it!) to apply only to ‘coachbuilt’ motorhomes, not PVCs.

 

As far as I’m aware it was never established with any certainty whether X250-based motorhomes did have different gear ratios to X250 ‘commercial’ variants, nor just how high the original reverse-gear ratios were for the different motor/transmission combinations. All water under the bridge now...

[Derek Uzzell]

A footnote...

 

As I was looking through some older copies of MMM magazine, in the May 2016 issue (pages 222-224) I noticed that there was an article headed “Reverse gear judder” that goes into some detail regarding the two levels (A and B) of ‘intervention’ that were used to address the problem on Fiat Ducatos, what parts were involved, the part numbers, prices, etc.

 

The author of the article owned a 2007 Auto-Trail Dakota with 2.3litre 130bhp motor and 6-speed manual transmission. The A and B interventions were both carried out, which were said to have not completely cured the problem, but had resulted in far easier reversing and far less obvious juddering.

[colin]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-12-03 2:49 PM

 

As far as I’m aware it was never established with any certainty whether X250-based motorhomes did have different gear ratios to X250 ‘commercial’ variants, nor just how high the original reverse-gear ratios were for the different motor/transmission combinations. All water under the bridge now...

 

Many owners of commercial vans complained about reverse judder when heavily laden , AFAIK a fix was only offered to motorhome owners,

I hired an early Citroen which had been a WVM hire van then converted by WildAx, the reverse judder was horrendous.

[Derek Uzzell]

I don’t know if the anti-juddering ‘fixes’ were only provided to owners of X250-based motorhomes (I can’t see why that should have been the case) but if Ducato ‘white van’ owners managed to get the modifications made, it’s likely to have been mentioned on the Fiat Forum.

 

As you rightly say, ‘commercial’ X250s were affected as well as motorhomes and their owners certainly did moan about it.

 

http://tinyurl.com/h9cnsom

[colin]

I remember seeing a posting of a WVM who was complaining after being told his van was not to be modded when he knew it was offered to motorhome owners.

But as i've pointed out before, compared to Renault and Ford who have also suffered gearbox problems in past Fiat treated owners much better.

[Derek Uzzell]

The X250 ‘juddering’ issue reared its head quite soon after the X250 introduction and the vehicles themselves would normally still have been under warranty. It was also widely discussed on-line and in UK motorhome magazines and X250-based motorhome owners were actively encouraged to test their vehicle's behaviour by reversing slowly up a seriously steep incline.

 

I've only once carried out the type of steep-slope reversing manoeuvre that was being suggested for X250s and that definitely was not by choice. This was with my Transit-based Hobby motorhome and the vehicle shook violently and the smell of overheating clutch material permeated its interior.

 

It might be interesting to know if any X250 motorhome owner had the modifications mentioned above carried out free of charge by Fiat/Peugeot if the juddering problem had been notified to them after the warranty had expired.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In our dog agility club whit about 80 mobil homes together still increasing every year and most standing on farmer grounds we are familiar with the smell of the clutches. Es specially in reverse be cause of the gear rotation. The smell comes not from the friction pads but the glue. be carefull and stop . We have by pass tractors to deal with.A clutch re pair is very expensive.

[PeteH]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-12-03 9:06 AM

 

Pete

 

I was under the impression that your 2007 Rapido motorhome had a reconditioned gearbox fitted in late-2015. If that’s so, then whatever transmission-related issues previous owners of your motorhome might have had would not have affected the replacement gearbox.

 

No, Derek. It was "only" a repair which allegedly "fixed" the lost 6th gear. The Gearbox has now undergone a substantial refurbishment, but is still the original "box". so the reference to previous owners possible issues is still valid IMV?.

 

Hopefully I will get some more use during the "winter" period and try and get some miles on it to see what the results are.

 

As earlier stated. I was intrigued by the wear pattern on the shafting, and wish now that I had brought the parts away with me for further examination by my "tame" metallurgist friend who works at the University in Hull. But there was definitely severe wear which would have not made life any better!!.