RogerC Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Communities Secretary Eric Pickles says the government "made a mistake" and should have dredged the flood-hit Somerset Levels. He told the Andrew Marr Show it may have relied to much on the Environment Agency's advice and it now recognises that the area should have been dredged. The minister apologised "unreservedly" to those affected by the flooding. Additionally he seems to support my vein of suspicion.......my lack of taking everything the 'experts' say without question..............He added: "I apologise unreservedly and I'm really sorry that we took the advice, we thought we were dealing with experts." It is at least a 'start'...................now all it needs is for that excuse of a man 'Gutless Smith' to be shown the door. His lack of compassion and his complete and utter lack of ability to run the EA properly means he should be sacked. I should be amazed if he has the decency to resign and having presided over this agency which has singularly failed in it's duty I don't see how he can ever be trusted again. Is this yet another agency of Government that is 'not fit for purpose' I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 MY maxim has always been, beware of experts.a spurt is a drip under pressure, an ex spurt is one who has already spouted,rubbish generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 RogerC - 2014-02-09 11:36 AMIs this yet another agency of Government that is 'not fit for purpose' I wonder?There's a man here -- in the 'local' newspaper, who very definitely believes that to be so Roger.http://www.wellsjournal.co.uk/Agency-s-estimates-called-question/story-20481936-detail/story.htmlNot only that, but that the whole approach of said Agency has been skewed from its inception -- whoever its chairman is, or was and that the Levels are probably doomed to return to pre-medieval bog/marsh/wetland fit only for wading birds. WWho's to disagree with that assessment this morning? Or even the local 'conspiracy theory' merchants ( e.g. Michael Eavis) who believe that this was the underlying agenda all along -- evidenced by the selling off of the dredging machinery in 1995!Pickles made it quite clear that he had no knowledge of the history of the Levels -- as did Owen Paterson recently -- let us hope that 'Lessons really have been learned' from this and that the( often unspoken) policy is reversed for the foreseeable future.As so often, local knowledge/expertise seems to have been lost/ ignored -- 'they' should listen this time!Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Whilst it would appear the EA has cocked it up, to blindly say 'don't trust experts' is a tad simplistic, the question is more, have we got the right experts, after all if we where to take the advise of the locals we are now elevating them to being experts on drainage in that area and by default they should not be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 colin - 2014-02-09 1:11 PMWhilst it would appear the EA has cocked it up, to blindly say 'don't trust experts' is a tad simplistic, the question is more, have we got the right experts, after all if we where to take the advise of the locals we are now elevating them to being experts on drainage in that area and by default they should not be trusted. I don't think there is any question that the EA has 'cocked it up' in this case. They have clearly and unequivocally 'cocked up' big time. I think, in this instance the locals can be termed 'reliable experts' because of a lifetime of experience and 'real life' knowledge of the Levels. Unfortunately the 'armchair' experts of the EA who allowed this to happen are 'expert' only in that they have the necessary pieces of paper to prove it. The leadership/policy/decision makers are/have been clearly incompetent in the extreme. Had the EA 'experts' listened to the 'real life experts'......the residents/farmers/custodians of the Levels they might/could/should have come to a workable solution. However the 'high and mighty, armchair experts' know better don't they? In this case, one of many, they obviously do not. I wonder how many of those responsible for the disaster on the Levels, for that is what it is, that has befallen the residents of the Levels will have the decency to resign.............or be brought to account for 'failing in their duty in public office'? I suspect the only ones to suffer will be the residents...............and I suspect yet another 'ass covering' exercise is now well underway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 No, sorry, fellow-Colin, that is quite wrong -- in my opinion. The environment Agency took over the day-to-day management of the rivers on the Levels from the Local Drainage Boards, and, for no apparent reason except cost, reversed the previous policy of dredging the rivers Tone, Parret and Brue every year to no dredging at all. Where the local drainage boards have been allowed to retain control of the 'rhynes', i.e drainage ditches/dykes such as the King's Sedgemoor drain in other areas of the Levels, the flooding and attendant damage has been much less during this current period of exceptional rainfall. The 'experts' used by the Agency nationally were probably expert on other , perfectly relevant, issues, but don't appear to have been aware of the history and practice of looking after what is a large chunk of artificially managed landscape/countryside not dissimilar to parts of Holland (where the overall plan had come from in the first place), or, chose to ignore it in favour of other issues. The current Chief Executive of the Agency, Paul Leinster, for example, has a degree in chemistry and is described as 'an environmental engineer' very useful for many aspects of this quango's huge brief, and much better than that of his predecessor, Baroness Young of Old Scone, who herself professed to have no knowledge of the Environment when appointed! She later stated that she would like to 'put limpet mines' on the pumping stations on the Somerset Levels -- so whose 'expert' opinion was she following then? No Colin, the locals 'on the ground', farmers, Councillors, M.P.'s, etc. surely should have been at least listened to and heeded for their expertise/local knowledge, forged by hard experience over many years. The creation of a giant national quango, the E.A., fine though that may have been when considering national plans, is unworkable on the ground, if you fail to take local knowledge into account and ride roughshod over it, as seems to have happened here.Three Ministers: Paterson, Cameron and Pickles, seem , at last to have appreciated that: "The agenda was wrong" and, hopefully, will reverse it for the long-term benefit of the beleagured locals, who are suffering dreadfully at the moment. See here Colin: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26094019 -- my heart goes out to this lady and her fellow farmers, who are likely to lose their livelihoods -- Lord Smith said that they will 'seek to protect businesses' -- farming is a business for heaven's sake! I don't know that I agree with this 'expert' putting his oar in however! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26109409 Colin. P.S. Sorry Roger, you beat me to it! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 It is at least a 'start'...................now all it needs is for that excuse of a man 'Gutless Smith' to be shown the door. His lack of compassion and his complete and utter lack of ability to run the EA properly means he should be sacked. I should be amazed if he has the decency to resign and having presided over this agency which has singularly failed in it's duty I don't see how he can ever be trusted again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you had listened he said that he wouldn't want Smith to resign Why do you think he said that?? Because he knew that it was the Government that was giving the orders Smith was being told to ~CUT Costs!! why do you think just a couple of weeks before all this happened there was talk of about 100 jobs going to be cut in the Environment Agency!!!!!!! As far as I can see the one that was one of the last on the scene DAVID CAMERON is to blame for this!! and he only got up off his Ar=e because Charles showed him up. As people said Smith stood there 6 months ago and said they were going to dredge the rivers >:-( he didn't because he was told NO MONEY. I'm not defending him as it was his job to see that this didn't happen and it did someone is responsible for these poor people,s lives and homes being destroyed " the least he can do now is say WHY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 It seems standard political practice to pay someone to say what you want to hear, so you can blame them when it goes wrong. After all, it isn't their money. Why else would Osborne pay Carney £850k a year plus £3k a week housing allowance to agree with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Does this country have enough money to throw at every area where there maybe a risk of flooding , land erosion and so on ? Me thinks not . The natural world has a wonderful way of showing how irrelevant we are and this is just one of em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 antony1969 - 2014-02-09 4:45 PM Does this country have enough money to throw at every area where there maybe a risk of flooding , land erosion and so on ? Me thinks not . The natural world has a wonderful way of showing how irrelevant we are and this is just one of em Seems to have plenty of money to throw at the Olympics, Invading other countries, The Monarchy, Foreign Aid etc etc. Presumably there is nothing left for essentials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Peter James - 2014-02-09 4:53 PM antony1969 - 2014-02-09 4:45 PM Does this country have enough money to throw at every area where there maybe a risk of flooding , land erosion and so on ? Me thinks not . The natural world has a wonderful way of showing how irrelevant we are and this is just one of em Seems to have plenty of money to throw at the Olympics, The Military, The Monarchy, Foreign Aid etc etc. Presumably there is nothing left for essentials True , add Scotland to that list aswel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-02-09 2:44 PM No, sorry, fellow-Colin, that is quite wrong -- in my opinion. The environment Agency took over the day-to-day management of the rivers on the Levels from the Local Drainage Boards, and, for no apparent reason except cost, reversed the previous policy of dredging the rivers Tone, Parret and Brue every year to no dredging at all. Where the local drainage boards have been allowed to retain control of the 'rhynes', i.e drainage ditches/dykes such as the King's Sedgemoor drain in other areas of the Levels, the flooding and attendant damage has been much less during this current period of exceptional rainfall. The 'experts' used by the Agency nationally were probably expert on other , perfectly relevant, issues, but don't appear to have been aware of the history and practice of looking after what is a large chunk of artificially managed landscape/countryside not dissimilar to parts of Holland (where the overall plan had come from in the first place), or, chose to ignore it in favour of other issues. The current Chief Executive of the Agency, Paul Leinster, for example, has a degree in chemistry and is described as 'an environmental engineer' very useful for many aspects of this quango's huge brief, and much better than that of his predecessor, Baroness Young of Old Scone, who herself professed to have no knowledge of the Environment when appointed! She later stated that she would like to 'put limpet mines' on the pumping stations on the Somerset Levels -- so whose 'expert' opinion was she following then? No Colin, the locals 'on the ground', farmers, Councillors, M.P.'s, etc. surely should have been at least listened to and heeded for their expertise/local knowledge, forged by hard experience over many years. The creation of a giant national quango, the E.A., fine though that may have been when considering national plans, is unworkable on the ground, if you fail to take local knowledge into account and ride roughshod over it, as seems to have happened here.Three Ministers: Paterson, Cameron and Pickles, seem , at last to have appreciated that: "The agenda was wrong" and, hopefully, will reverse it for the long-term benefit of the beleagured locals, who are suffering dreadfully at the moment. See here Colin: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26094019 -- my heart goes out to this lady and her fellow farmers, who are likely to lose their livelihoods -- Lord Smith said that they will 'seek to protect businesses' -- farming is a business for heaven's sake! I don't know that I agree with this 'expert' putting his oar in however! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26109409 Colin. P.S. Sorry Roger, you beat me to it! C. I would suggest you read again my post, because you start off saying i'm wrong and then put together a post which appears to agree with mine. i.e. it's not that we shouldn't trust experts but that we should have the right experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 vindiboy - 2014-02-09 11:53 AM MY maxim has always been, beware of experts.a spurt is a drip under pressure, an ex spurt is one who has already spouted,rubbish generally. Is that your "expert" opinion, Malc? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-02-09 1:06 PMRogerC - 2014-02-09 11:36 AMIs this yet another agency of Government that is 'not fit for purpose' I wonder?There's a man here -- in the 'local' newspaper, who very definitely believes that to be so Roger.http://www.wellsjournal.co.uk/Agency-s-estimates-called-question/story-20481936-detail/story.html......................Colin.Problem is, yer boy got his knickers in a bit of a twist as he lashed out at everyone within reach. Less Government, he shrieks. More dredging on the levels he shrieks. So, who does he think will do the dredging, the tooth fairy? Hardly very logical. Perhaps the locals would like him in charge, instead? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Peter James - 2014-02-09 4:53 PMantony1969 - 2014-02-09 4:45 PMDoes this country have enough money to throw at every area where there maybe a risk of flooding , land erosion and so on ? Me thinks not . The natural world has a wonderful way of showing how irrelevant we are and this is just one of em Seems to have plenty of money to throw at the Olympics, Invading other countries, The Monarchy, Foreign Aid etc etc. Presumably there is nothing left for essentials You are reading my mind, my thoughts exactly.Lets put our own house in order before we meddle elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-02-09 6:28 PMvindiboy - 2014-02-09 11:53 AMMY maxim has always been, beware of experts.a spurt is a drip under pressure, an ex spurt is one who has already spouted,rubbish generally.Is that your "expert" opinion, Malc? :-DNot expert just my observersations and experience over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Undoubtedly they EvA cocked it up with regard to the Levels and I can't understand why Smithy can't bring himself to say sorry. Having said that they are not all bad. In our area in Kent in conjunction with our local flood committee on which I serve they have done great things mainly with our committees local input. For example 17 ton of rubble was removed from a culvert that flows under our village allowing the water to get away instead of flooding through the village, flap valves have been installed in some locations to prevent water backing up through the drains in low laying areas, a troublesome stream has been up graded to a river to enable the agency to take it over and maintain it, streams and key ditches are dredged every Autumn and in times of heavy rain their staff turn up regularly to keep protective grids clear. Over Christmas they had staff on duty for over twenty four hours. In addition Southern water were persuaded to seal up all possible points where surface water was able to get into the sewerage system causing it to overflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 colin - 2014-02-09 5:06 PM I would suggest you read again my post, because you start off saying i'm wrong and then put together a post which appears to agree with mine. i.e. it's not that we shouldn't trust experts but that we should have the right experts. Sorry Colin if I misread you -- you appeared to be saying that we shouldn't trust the 'locals' either, because they would become 'experts' too -- and maybe not trustworthy as a result -- I obviously took you wrongly and I apologise :$ Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Colin Leake - 2014-02-09 7:24 PMUndoubtedly they EvA cocked it up with regard to the Levels and I can't understand why Smithy can't bring himself to say sorry.Having said that they are not all bad. In our area in Kent in conjunction with our local flood committee on which I serve they have done great things mainly with our committees local input. For example 17 ton of rubble was removed from a culvert that flows under our village allowing the water to get away instead of flooding through the village, flap valves have been installed in some locations to prevent water backing up through the drains in low laying areas, a troublesome stream has been up graded to a river to enable the agency to take it over and maintain it, streams and key ditches are dredged every Autumn and in times of heavy rain their staff turn up regularly to keep protective grids clear. Over Christmas they had staff on duty for over twenty four hours.In addition Southern water were persuaded to seal up all possible points where surface water was able to get into the sewerage system causing it to overflow. Colin your post above just goes to show what can be done if the 'experts' listen to the local people. An 'armchair' expert in Whitehall, or wherever he/she slide their knees under the desk, can not possibly know 'exactly' what needs doing without going 'on site' and listening/taking heed of the local, sometimes hard earned, knowledge. The 'experts' can theorise as much as they like but there's no substitute for 'boots on the ground', listening and seeing for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitie1 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 hi about throwing money everywhere in this country we send 11 billion to e.u instead of helping people in this country davidd to close to the rich people in europe cheers.tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 RogerC - 2014-02-09 11:36 AMCommunities Secretary Eric Pickles says the government "made a mistake" and should have dredged the flood-hit Somerset Levels. He told the Andrew Marr Show it may have relied to much on the Environment Agency's advice and it now recognises that the area should have been dredged. The minister apologised "unreservedly" to those affected by the flooding. Not so sure it takes " balls " to admit that someone else ( not his dept ) got it wrong - but at least he does, on occasions, say what he thinks. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Pickles may come across as a Billy Bunter character because of his looks but overall he gets my respect for talking common sense not the lip-service dogma most politicians of all colours dish out. He has spoken out in favour of householders being able to rent out their driveways top alleviate parking – much to the annoyance of the anti-car brigade whose penal official car parking charges are forcing customers out of the High Street and into the free parking out of town centres. Similarly – Pickles also stated that the High Street could be rejuvenated if we were allowed to park short term on single yellow lines! - What a consternation THAT caused with the muppets that would rather see a town centre empty of cars even if that meant a economic ghost town. And now he questions the expertise of those in charge of the Environment Agency. And yes – he has had the balls to say sorry. Lord Chris Smith has impressed most people with his arrogance and ability to run for cover when difficult questions are asked of him. I had to laugh this morning when I heard that someone (not sure who) has said that the only good use of Lord Chris Smith would be as a sandbag. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I thought I'd heard on the radio this morning, that Owen Patterson had complained no10 about Eric Pickles's comments.... :-S ..Sir!...Sir!...he's tellin' tales Sir!.... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 CliveH - 2014-02-10 8:49 AM Pickles may come across as a Billy Bunter character because of his looks but overall he gets my respect for talking common sense not the lip-service dogma most politicians of all colours dish out. The Labour Party has John Prescott The Tories have Eric Pickles. I've never taken Pickles seriously since he made such a fool of himself on Question Time ( still available on Youtube ) when he tried to justify the taxpayer helping to support his second home, in London. Maybe Dave has told Pickles to go out and take some of the flak. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Hi All, The financial state of the country appears to dictate that we need to prioritize where we spend our resources, so it seems. In this case I believe that the money earmarked for the HS2 project would do an awful lot for our river defenses all over the country. Whilst it may be admirable to build faster railway links I cannot see them being of any use if the lines are flooded and trains can not run on them. My priority would be to get people back in their homes asap and then ensure they can rest without fear of repeats. Anybody agree? cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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