thebiker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Did anyone see the caravan show on channel 212 last night?in it there was a brief mention about the change in the law which comes into effect this nov. Which in essance says, that a frames which are fitted to a car thus converting it into a trailer, enabeling it to be towed behind a motorhome, will not be allowed on NEW cars bought after that date but that cars already fitted with them and seconhand cars will not be affected by this change, however i am not so sure, knowing what the burocrats in europe are like!! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 helmet on for you!! :D :D jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 It should be well recognised by now how complicated motorhome A-framing is and (although I have not seen the TV programme mentioned) I'd be very wary that the conclusions stated on such a programme can be trusted. New European braking regulations are due to take effect in November 2014 and I presume that this was what the TV programme was referring to. The forthcoming changes are mentioned here: http://www.caratow.com/legal.php It has generally been assumed that these changes will not be applied retrospectively in the UK and that the use of inertia-braked A-frames sold prior to November 2014 will remain 'legal' in this country. UK A-frame manufacturers appear to have accepted that, from November 2014, selling inertia-braked A-frames in this country will be forbidden and have come up with alternative braking systems. Basically, after November 2014, it will not be the 'newess' of the car being towed that matters, but the 'newness' of the A-frame system being used to tow the car. (This has little to do with European bureaucracy. Changes are being made to European trailer-towing standards/regulations and, because UK A-framers 'win' legality in the UK by their towed cars being treated as trailers regulation-wise, the European trailer-regulation braking changes have a (unintended) knock-on effect on the UK A-framing practice.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Had my 2010 Toyota Yaris converted in Feb 2014, Bought a 2011 Car-A Tow A frame off of E-Bay in Nov 2013, Intend to tow 'outfit' this year, but in the UK only, Don't want a Large Car or a Caravan, Had both before, Motorhome has 1060kg Towing limit so, cannot use a trailer (and would have no-where to store it anyway.) For ME, the perfect solution. maybye one day we will 'downsize', but with 2 labradors and both of us with limited mobility, not yet. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littladyelsie Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Sorry to appear to be shouting, but getting very fed up with this. THERE IS NO CHANGE TO THE LEGISLATION IN 2014. When I work out how, I will post letters from the dft (Department for Transport) and the VCA (Vehicle Certification Agency) confirming this. I don't know (but can guess) where these stories started, but there is NO TRUTH IN THEM. The people who should know are the agencies and they are catagoric in the fact that there is NO ALTERATION. Incidentially, although thousands use a frames in Spain, they have never been legal in that country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littladyelsie Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 E mails from Dft & VCA - as promised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 No sign of them, I'm afraid. On this forum it is not always easy to attach files to postings. The files need to be no larger than 100kb in size and it is wise to check after the posting has been submitted whether ot not the files have been successfuly added to it. If they have not, the posting's Edit facility can be used (within 30 minutes of when the posting was first submitted) to have another go. Difficult to best advise in your case, as I don't know what form the e-mails are in, but (as was suggested in the other forum-thread you posted to) if the e-mails are just simple text, it should be straightforward to copy-and-paste the relevant information from them into a posting, rather than try to attach them to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 An alternative method would be to forward these e-mails to someone who can post their content on the forum. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 littladyelsie - 2014-06-04 2:58 PM Sorry to appear to be shouting, but getting very fed up with this. THERE IS NO CHANGE TO THE LEGISLATION IN 2014. When I work out how, I will post letters from the dft (Department for Transport) and the VCA (Vehicle Certification Agency) confirming this. I don't know (but can guess) where these stories started, but there is NO TRUTH IN THEM. The people who should know are the agencies and they are catagoric in the fact that there is NO ALTERATION. Incidentially, although thousands use a frames in Spain, they have never been legal in that country. Don't know if this will help, but could you clarify whether you received letters through the post, letters attached to e-mails (possibly in .pdf format), or simply e-mails. If they are simply e-mails, it will be easiest, as suggested above, to copy the whole e-mail (including the sender's details) into a post. Just highlight all the e-mail text, click copy, then open the edit box for posting to the forum, and click paste. You may need to tidy it up a bit to get the layout of lines and paragraphs right, but generally quite straightforward. If letters by post, you will need to scan them as .jpg images, and to attach those to a post you must, as stated above, reduce the file size to 100kb or less. This can result in a postage stamp sized image, so check image size before posting. If they are attachments to e-mails, I think you will need first to save them as .jpg files. Sorry, I don't know about posting .pdf, files, or how to re-size these. If that is the problem, I'm sure someone else will know what to do. Hope this helps a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 littladyelsie - 2014-06-04 2:58 PM Incidentially, although thousands use a frames in Spain, they have never been legal in that country. Can't say I noticed any this Jan Feb or March? :-S................the only tow cars we saw were on trailers ;-)............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-06-06 6:29 PM Can't say I noticed any this Jan Feb or March? :-S................the only tow cars we saw were on trailers ;-)............... We saw several throughout the winter, even Dutch, French and German registered vans. We also A-framed up through Spain ourselves en-route to the UK in March. (shared a filling station forecourt with a Guardia Civil van in Huesca at one point - they just weren't bothered) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Worry not ! With UKIP in power in the EU, you will be allowed to tow your m/home on an A-Frame behind a towcar, thus being eco-friendly, smaller carbon foot-print and possibilibly frack free. :D (Have to put that as someone is bound to get in huff about the above statement) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 neilmac - 2014-06-06 8:19 PM pelmetman - 2014-06-06 6:29 PM Can't say I noticed any this Jan Feb or March? :-S................the only tow cars we saw were on trailers ;-)............... We saw several throughout the winter, even Dutch, French and German registered vans. We also A-framed up through Spain ourselves en-route to the UK in March. (shared a filling station forecourt with a Guardia Civil van in Huesca at one point - they just weren't bothered) Seems like I'll have to be more observant ;-).............I guess if you have two drivers on board then its worth the risk of a fine when compared to the cost of a trailer................if you only have one driver then things could become more awkward :-|.....................Regardless of whether you support UKIP or not :D....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Which forum was it that had a thread on this subject claiming that the addition of a cross member to the front of the Toad invalidated its type approval because the crumple zones wouldn't. Similarly one converter (Island plastics or whatever they're called now ?) was only going to use second hand vans because the conversion B*&&ered the European type approval by placing a large load behind the axle.Still if UKIP have they're way it wont matter touring abroad will become a thing of the past when they pull up the drawbridge. Last one out's a Lib-Dem :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 In the 5 months I was in Spain last/thisyear I only saw one A frame and that was a Belgium. I have no doubt they are about but just like hens teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Retread24800 - 2014-06-07 2:33 PM Which forum was it that had a thread on this subject claiming that the addition of a cross member to the front of the Toad invalidated its type approval because the crumple zones wouldn't. Similarly one converter (Island plastics or whatever they're called now ?) was only going to use second hand vans because the conversion B*&&ered the European type approval by placing a large load behind the axle.Still if UKIP have they're way it wont matter touring abroad will become a thing of the past when they pull up the drawbridge. Last one out's a Lib-Dem :-) It's been suggested on motorhome forums (not just this one) that what's involved in making a Type-Approved car suitable to be towed long-distance via an A-frame may invalidate the vehicle's Type Approval statis as the vehicle is likely to be less 'safe' in an accident. The Romahome thing was discussed here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Wonder-which-other-convertors-will-be-affected-this-way-/32756/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Derek, I think the Romahome 'thing' was about ESP requirement on new versions of the Berlingo. A shame that a Good British Motorhome Manufacturer has been forced to cease production, whatever the cause. I thought that membership of the EU was meant to stimulate businesses not shut them down, because they are not 'Large enough' to conform to these new rules. Their present route (Romahome's)of only converting onto 'Used' chassis is not a long term proposition for them. As I said 'a great shame'. I consider the 'Inertia A-frame' Law change ( Caravan braking using the same system is not considered 'unlawful' I see ??) as another nail in the coffin of many small British businesses making these Frames, Towtal has gone, Chris Cox has gone, presumably Car-A-Tow will follow suit ? This system of Braking works fine, and is still lawful on both single and twin axle caravans. AND towing a car on an A-Frame is considered 'Normal' in the safety conscious USA. why not here ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-06-07 9:09 PM Derek, I think the Romahome 'thing' was about ESP requirement on new versions of the Berlingo. A shame that a Good British Motorhome Manufacturer has been forced to cease production, whatever the cause. I thought that membership of the EU was meant to stimulate businesses not shut them down, because they are not 'Large enough' to conform to these new rules. Their present route (Romahome's)of only converting onto 'Used' chassis is not a long term proposition for them. As I said 'a great shame'. I consider the 'Inertia A-frame' Law change ( Caravan braking using the same system is not considered 'unlawful' I see ??) as another nail in the coffin of many small British businesses making these Frames, Towtal has gone, Chris Cox has gone, presumably Car-A-Tow will follow suit ? This system of Braking works fine, and is still lawful on both single and twin axle caravans. AND towing a car on an A-Frame is considered 'Normal' in the safety conscious USA. why not here ? Ray That's the EU for you *-).................Big government is only interested in looking after big business ..........Ask Mr Amazon or Starbucks :-|............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 For once I am going to defend the 'Faceless bureaucrats in Brussels'.I find it hard to argue against a rule that says in effect that if you modify a type approved design and then offer that product for use by Joe Public then you must check to make sure that the design has not been compromised. The inability of a converter to come up with a design that will come within the base vehicles design parameters is hardly cause for celebration. But I suppose in Nigelland you will be able to offer vehicles without any traction on the front wheels due to excess weight behind the rear axle. An angle iron where the deformable front bumper was and because its not British to reduce risk no seat belts either let alone the host of safety features we have become used to, ABS, ETC etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Retread24800 - 2014-06-07 11:59 PM For once I am going to defend the 'Faceless bureaucrats in Brussels'.I find it hard to argue against a rule that says in effect that if you modify a type approved design and then offer that product for use by Joe Public then you must check to make sure that the design has not been compromised. The inability of a converter to come up with a design that will come within the base vehicles design parameters is hardly cause for celebration. But I suppose in Nigelland you will be able to offer vehicles without any traction on the front wheels due to excess weight behind the rear axle. An angle iron where the deformable front bumper was and because its not British to reduce risk no seat belts either let alone the host of safety features we have become used to, ABS, ETC etc. When my old man had his Hymer with a tow kit on his Peugeot, I don't recall the cross bar being in place when the car was in use :-S............ is this the case?...... . I agree being hit by a tow car with the metal bar in place would be dangerous..............but then again as the victim would've already been hit by the camper 8-) .............I doubt it'd make much difference to the outcome :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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