cheapest way to increase the payload weight of a 3.5kg motorhome

[StuartO]

mentaliss - 2014-04-09 5:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2014-04-08 10:05 PM

 

Dare I suggest considerng changing the motorhome as a cost effective approach?

 

nice advice but not helpful as we bought our DETH' from PULLINGERS 20TH Dec dont dealers have some responsibily to inform customer of the pit falls of weight??

 

If you bought it as recently as that youy could perfectly reasonably go back and ask for a change - and if necessary bring up the "or else" scenario. If they didn't explain payload I would have thought you stood a good chance of cooperation and some sort of reasonable deal.

 

I know a guy who "rejected" a motorhome twice as unsuitable for purpose and got ALL his money back. Both time he had the MHs for quite a while too. He went to Court at least once and stuck to his guns - the suppliers caved in and he got paid off in full. Balls of steel mind, risking big legal fees himself if he lost - so not for the faint hearted.

[mentaliss]

JudgeMental, with respect I don't think you've read my reply to Derek Uzzell...when you first bought your MH did you take it straight down the weigh station????

it appears that I must be just naive to think that my Dealer just might have warned me that our purchase of our model motorhome only had a pay load weight of 350kg...before they fitted a 4.0MTR Awning/Bike Rack

 

As I have already said in my response to Derek the fact that I have had a new Fiamma 4.0mtr Awning plus a Fiamma bike rack+ two bikes+ my fitting of my under slung spare wheel has in the most taken up my 350kg of pay load.......I have accepted this, all I'm interested in now is finding a way of containing the problem ...bigger wheels/Tyres? new leaf in the spring's? fitting my air assistors....etc etc

[Guest JudgeMental]

But your still guessing for heavens sake! Of course I read earlier posts

 

but you dont know what your available payload is! and won't until you and partner, go to a weighbridge with JUST fuel, water and gas on board. only then will you know what you have to play with. Then you can decide if an upgrade the only option...have you called SVtech? *-)

[mentaliss]

JudgeMental - 2014-04-09 7:58 PM

 

But your still guessing for heavens sake! Of course I read earlier posts

 

but you dont know what your available payload is! and won't until you and partner, go to a weighbridge with JUST fuel, water and gas on board. only then will you know what you have to play with. Then you can decide if an upgrade the only option...have you called SVtech? *-)

 

___________________________________________________________________________________

There's no available payload (lol) 'Dethleffs Maximum user rear axle payload is 2000kg'....Front axle is 1495kg = 3495kg total Authorised weight, , as I mentioned earlier post, we weighed our vehicle the morning we left to Spain with 15 Ltrs of water, 6 gallons of fuel, the rear axle weighed 2210 kg.!!.. there's no option of removing touring stuff as we weighed all the stuff we put into the 'large' garage = approximately 116kg.

You may find this interesting , since our tour of Spain (still here) and meeting and talking to fellow travellers I have quickly come to the conclusion that as much as 80 -90% of MH's have no ideal what the weight of their vehicle is nor did they have any real understanding of tyre load capacity/ tyre pressures etc

[StuartO]

mentaliss - 2014-04-09 7:35 PM

 

......talking to fellow travellers I have quickly come to the conclusion that as much as 80 -90% of MH's have no ideal what the weight of their vehicle is nor did they have any real understanding of tyre load capacity/ tyre pressures etc

 

That doesn't surpriise me - scary isn't it? I suppose most motorhomes have sufficent reserve capacity to cope, otherwiose they would all be grinding to a halt.

 

I'm told that UK police (or VOSA) have portable weighing equipment (pads they can put under each wheel in turn) which they use for accident investigation. If they weight a motorhome they would be likely to find overload conditions - in which case the insurance company would presumably repudiate any claim.

 

Coming back from France last year we put the wine insdie the car we were towing on a trailer, hoping there was enough remaining capacity. We got home without incident.

[Billggski]

I'm in France at the moment and don't have the details, but I'm pretty sure your MH would originally have had a 3850K limit but has been down rated to 3500K. I know my A5881 has and that's a smaller chassis.

You have an extra 350K safety margin even on those tyres, but need to replate it if you want to use the extra.

The 16 inch wheels have a different stud pattern.

[Mel B]

To summarise:

 

Your Dethleffs Advantage T6571 which you weighed on the way to Spain had the following (estimated weight) items in/on/under it:

 

45kg = half a tank of fuel

15kg = 15 ltrs of fresh water (are you SURE it was only 15L?)

35kg = Fiamma 4.0 mtr Awning

30kg= under body fit spare wheel and carrier

10kg = Fiamma Bike rack

40kg = two bikes

175kg = total

 

You found that your rear axle weight was 210kg over weight and your MH overall 100kg overweight

 

So you have more than maxed-out your rear axle being way over it's permitted weight, so if you were 100kg overweight at 3595kg, with your rear axle at 2210kg (ie 210kg overloaded) that means that your front axle must only have had 1385kg on it, which is extremely low so makes me wonder exactly WHAT you have loaded at the front of the MH! Also having the bikes on a rack on the rear will add more cumulative weight than their individual weights due to the leverage effect which occurs the further back you have them past the rear axle.

 

I suggest you move the bikes into the garage itself and the stuff that's in there out to the storage areas at the front of the MH to spread the weight more evenly, then totally empty the fresh water tank (and waste/toilet too), fill the fuel up totally and weigh it again. This will give you more precise figures to work with and see if you really have as big a problem as you seem to think you have. It will more than like still be well over, but perhaps not quite so bad and you may be able to mitigate it by jettison some bits and pieces to make you legal until you have decided what you want/need to do long term.

 

It would help if you could also give the exact figures on your weight plate - our axle weight add up to 3850kg, but we are plated at 3500kg, ie:

 

Front axle max: 1850kg

Rear axle max: 2000kg

MTPLM/MAM: 3500kg

Train weight: 6000kg

 

On the face of it, it appears that we can uprate our MTPLM to the maximum axle weights, ie 3850kg (we have 15" wheels) but in reality I don't know whether this would be a simple paper exercise or require further 'mechanical' improvements/changes to enable us to do so (not that we want or need to!). We travel at around 1730kg max on each axle, so roughly 40kg below our MTPLM when we are in full touring trim with all the extra bits we take for a long holiday.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

mentaliss - 2014-04-09 7:35 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2014-04-09 7:58 PM

 

But your still guessing for heavens sake! Of course I read earlier posts

 

but you dont know what your available payload is! and won't until you and partner, go to a weighbridge with JUST fuel, water and gas on board. only then will you know what you have to play with. Then you can decide if an upgrade the only option...have you called SVtech? *-)

 

___________________________________________________________________________________

There's no available payload (lol) 'Dethleffs Maximum user rear axle payload is 2000kg'....Front axle is 1495kg = 3495kg total Authorised weight, , as I mentioned earlier post, we weighed our vehicle the morning we left to Spain with 15 Ltrs of water, 6 gallons of fuel, the rear axle weighed 2210 kg.!!.. there's no option of removing touring stuff as we weighed all the stuff we put into the 'large' garage = approximately 116kg.

You may find this interesting , since our tour of Spain (still here) and meeting and talking to fellow travellers I have quickly come to the conclusion that as much as 80 -90% of MH's have no ideal what the weight of their vehicle is nor did they have any real understanding of tyre load capacity/ tyre pressures etc

 

your not listening..if you dont obtain a weighbridge ticket categorically proving what your available payload is you cant go to CAB to argue your case.... have you called svtech yet *-)

 

https://www.citizensadvicedirect.org.uk/

 

looking at the overhang on your van i'm not surprised you have problems. In the interim listen to Mels advice, move bikes to garage, if they don't fit you have too much stuff in there....

 

[Mickydripin]

I know a guy who "rejected" a motorhome twice as unsuitable for purpose and got ALL his money back. Both time he had the MHs for quite a while too. He went to Court at least once and stuck to his guns - the suppliers caved in and he got paid off in full. Balls of steel mind, risking big legal fees himself if he lost - so not for the faint hearted.

-------------------------------------------------

Hi I know you do not want to take your motorhome back to the dealer but I was not happy with the payload on my new motorhome and proceeded along the lines of solicitors etc.

Yes you do need balls of steel at times I thought I would lose my house with the bills leaping sky high we went through hell but the dealer gave way just before it went to court.

It took four years and health problems brought on by worry I was on my computer daily for all that time.

Was it worth it Would we do it again YES we would and thanks once again to members of this forum that gave me invaluable information and support to keep me going I owe them more than I can say.

Why should we let dealers OR private sellers sell us a load of crap and walk away with our hard earned money.

when buying anything as expensive as a motorhome always think!! Buyer beware!!!.

 

Mike.

 

[mentaliss]

Mel B - 2014-04-09 11:16 PM

 

To summarise:

 

Your Dethleffs Advantage T6571 which you weighed on the way to Spain had the following (estimated weight) items in/on/under it:

 

45kg = half a tank of fuel

15kg = 15 ltrs of fresh water (are you SURE it was only 15L?)

35kg = Fiamma 4.0 mtr Awning

30kg= under body fit spare wheel and carrier

10kg = Fiamma Bike rack

40kg = two bikes

175kg = total

 

You found that your rear axle weight was 210kg over weight and your MH overall 100kg overweight

 

So you have more than maxed-out your rear axle being way over it's permitted weight, so if you were 100kg overweight at 3595kg, with your rear axle at 2210kg (ie 210kg overloaded) that means that your front axle must only have had 1385kg on it, which is extremely low so makes me wonder exactly WHAT you have loaded at the front of the MH! Also having the bikes on a rack on the rear will add more cumulative weight than their individual weights due to the leverage effect which occurs the further back you have them past the rear axle.

 

I suggest you move the bikes into the garage itself and the stuff that's in there out to the storage areas at the front of the MH to spread the weight more evenly, then totally empty the fresh water tank (and waste/toilet too), fill the fuel up totally and weigh it again. This will give you more precise figures to work with and see if you really have as big a problem as you seem to think you have. It will more than like still be well over, but perhaps not quite so bad and you may be able to mitigate it by jettison some bits and pieces to make you legal until you have decided what you want/need to do long term.

 

It would help if you could also give the exact figures on your weight plate - our axle weight add up to 3850kg, but we are plated at 3500kg, ie:

 

Front axle max: 1850kg

Rear axle max: 2000kg

MTPLM/MAM: 3500kg

Train weight: 6000kg

 

On the face of it, it appears that we can uprate our MTPLM to the maximum axle weights, ie 3850kg (we have 15" wheels) but in reality I don't know whether this would be a simple paper exercise or require further 'mechanical' improvements/changes to enable us to do so (not that we want or need to!). We travel at around 1730kg max on each axle, so roughly 40kg below our MTPLM when we are in full touring trim with all the extra bits we take for a long holiday.

 

Thanks so much for your input but my original question still remains unanswered 'cheapest way to increase the payload weight of a 3.5kg' as to my mind we are not going to get rid of stuff that we have just paid for to reduce the payload of the vehicle, we like the vehicle, we accept all motor homes have compromise's, we accept that Dealers in some cases are not professional enough to do correct legal procedures of 'vehicle hand overs' but at this moment that issue can't be resolved till we are back in England. My plan is quite simple, that is to move the spare wheel foremost as possible, fit my Dunlop rear spring air assistors, change the tyre size either to '112' ratings, or if possible without effecting the rolling radius fit 16" wheels/tyres, of course this wont resolve the current weight issue but it will mean the vehicle is safe on the road..however I still need to know what the advantage's and disadvantages are for a changing the taxion class in order that our payload issue is no longer compromised.

thanks for your interest

[Guest JudgeMental]

but if you did what I suggest and gathered actual evidence of the available weight, showing what payload is. you can then go to citizens advice, get their opinion, go back to dealer, threaten to reject vehicle, unless they pay cost of upgrade to make van a practical proposition.

 

what does a spring assister kit weigh? be careful driving back..spanish police often pull in campers on route north. tried to pull me in November..just ignored them and kept my eyes on the road, copper just lifted his arms in exasperation (saw him in mirrors :-D) I was legal..just did not want to be delayed.

[Mickydripin]

but if you did what I suggest and gathered actual evidence of the available weight, showing what payload is. you can then go to citizens advice, get their opinion, go back to dealer, threaten to reject vehicle, unless they pay cost of upgrade to make van a practical proposition.

-------------------------------------------

Bang on the money judge!!.

When you purchased the vehicle they did not tell you about the pay load problem so you must have some redress with the seller.

[Robinhood]

mentaliss - 2014-04-10 5:05 PM

 

 

Thanks so much for your input but my original question still remains unanswered 'cheapest way to increase the payload weight of a 3.5kg' .....

 

Well, if you'll pardon my (uncharacteristic ;-) ) bluntness, I think the essence of your (potential) answer has been given in response (right from Derek Uzzell's first post onwards).

 

You appear to be exceeding both the MAM and the maximum rear axle loading for your 'van (both quoted values being believable, though I am very surprised that the maximum front axle load is 1495kg, and not somewhat higher - maybe I misunderstood what you posted).

 

Most Dethleffs 'vans available on the Ducato "light" are both now and historically available ex-works with an MAM of 3850kg. This is at a cost (c €250) which implies to me there may be some potential change, not just a paper exercise.

 

My suggestion is that you enquire what this entails (if anything) as it would potentially resolve at least the issue of you being over your MAM.

 

There is also a possibility, though I suspect only remote, that it might increase the authorised rear axle weight (because I suspect it may only be a paper exercise of taking the MAM up to the combination of the two axle weights).

 

If it doesn't resolve the rear axle weight problem, the next thing to do is to consult with SVTech, (Derek has already flagged) who, on receipt of your VIN number will be able to advise if, and how, the rear axle loading can be increased. If it is possible, it may require supplementary springing, and it looks like it will require a higher load-index tyre (retaining 15" wheels but going for 225/70 tyres with a 122 load index could give you an extra 200kg or so).

 

SVTech would also be capable of advising on uprating the MAM, and issuing, at a cost, the required documentation to satisfy the authorities and supporting re-registration.

 

Note though, that there are some implications to re-registering above 3500kg.

 

Currently, in this country, it would reduce your road tax slightly, with very little downside (other than if your license doesn't allow vehicles over 3500kg). In Europe, however, you would be subject to more restrictive speed limits, and considerably more inconvenient road tolling arrangements.

 

I think you could increase the MAM to 3850kg for relatively little expense, and suspect you could increase the rear axle loading somewhat for some outlay (on augmented suspension and tyres). I do think, however, that his would still leave you fairly "close to the edge" given your quote loadings (though it would be somewhat more legal and safe than your current arrangements).

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

mentaliss - 2014-04-09 6:37 PM

 

I have accepted this, all I'm interested in now is finding a way of containing the problem ...bigger wheels/Tyres? new leaf in the spring's? fitting my air assistors....etc etc

 

I drove round for years well over weight as I never gave it a thought until I joined this forum *-)...........whether you will ever be pulled over and weighed is a moot point :-| .................But if you wish to be legal as I now am :-D....................then clearly you will need to up rate your vehicle via the auspices of SVtech and take the financial hit, or change the camper to something with a better payload..............or just do as I did and I suspect many others do now in ignorance ;-)....................and carry on regardless :D........

[Mel B]

Funnily enough I've been chatting to a friend on the phone tonight and he was telling me about the time he was travelling in his coachbuilt MH on the motorway on his way back from Spain and was pulled over by the French police for a check. He was escorted to an aire where he saw about 40 police officers/officials checking vehicles, they even had a large X-ray machine to put them through! Fortunately he was 'legal' weight wise ... but not by much! This occurred in 2010 and the whole episode took over an hour ... so it DOES happen! 8-)

[Mel B]

mentaliss - 2014-04-10 5:05 PM

 

Thanks so much for your input but my original question still remains unanswered 'cheapest way to increase the payload weight of a 3.5kg' as to my mind we are not going to get rid of stuff that we have just paid for to reduce the payload of the vehicle, we like the vehicle, we accept all motor homes have compromise's, we accept that Dealers in some cases are not professional enough to do correct legal procedures of 'vehicle hand overs' but at this moment that issue can't be resolved till we are back in England. My plan is quite simple, that is to move the spare wheel foremost as possible, fit my Dunlop rear spring air assistors, change the tyre size either to '112' ratings, or if possible without effecting the rolling radius fit 16" wheels/tyres, of course this wont resolve the current weight issue but it will mean the vehicle is safe on the road..however I still need to know what the advantage's and disadvantages are for a changing the taxion class in order that our payload issue is no longer compromised.

thanks for your interest

I can understand your wanting to get a definitive answer to put your mind at rest but you can't I'm afraid as at the moment there are too many 'unknowns'. There's no point in speculating if changing this or that will sort it out, the best you can do at the moment is to email SVTech and give them some info and see if they can advise you what you might be able to do to make you 'legal' and the cost of doing so. Changing the wheel/tyre size might be totally unnecessary as not all 3850kg vehicles have these I believe. The implication of changing to a higher weight class has been mentioned by others so I won't go into that, but it also has some implications for vehicle recovery (nothing major) and also may mean you cannot go into villages and use roads with a 3500kg weight limit. However, if this is the ONLY way you can (and you still want) to stay LEGAL then you will have to do it, or reduce your chattels to bring you under the 3500kg limit ... or, of course, change your MH for a 3500kg one with a better payload.

[mentaliss]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to my topic B-)

[Billggski]

Just checked the Dethleffs spec sheets, you are indeed limited to 3500K, my apologies.

My A5881 is on a similar chassis and wheels but is rated at 3850K. But as mine is an overcabwith rear bunk beds it is much shorter with more weight at the front. Yours has a huge overhang at the back so any weight put in the garage will lift the front wheels. (!) this will put your rear weight to the worrying figures mentioned.especially if you have a bike rack even further back.

225 tyres will give you some leeway,

Best of luck,.

[mentaliss]

Hi everyone its the pain in the ..... back again....the Ducato plate (under the bonnet) and the Dethleffs sticker both read the same ie:

3500 kg

6000kg

1 1850kg

2 2000kg

 

So this means that I could increase the payload over the front axle currently weighed by us at the local weigh bridge 1390kg But there lies the problem of this van its a low profile, no overhang, so unless the wife and I want to climb over most of the repositioned garage items that would now be stored in the gangway, lounge seats etc we will still be in the mire......Ok the vehicle taxation is less costly but what are the ramifications of a legal higher weight limit? particularly when one talks about Toll issues how on earth does TOLL technology know what the weight of the motorhome etc, etc :-(

[Guest JudgeMental]

So what has been learnt..not a lot by the sound of it! Even with an upgrade rear axle will seriously limit the capacity.....my 636 panel van has a 2400 kg rear axle and so should this with an overhang like that! what are people thinking when they buy campers, I'll answer that......Not a lot! :D

[lennyhb]

Your front axle weight is very low our low profile Hymer used to weigh in between 1650 to 1720kg it does suggest what has already been said you have far too much weight at the rear particularly behind the rear axle. I would have thought it would not be very pleasant to dive with the front end feeling very floaty.

 

You mentioned earlier about changing to 16" wheel not very practicable the 16" wheel has a different PCD so you would need to change hubs, discs, brakes etc. The air suspension route will jack up the rear it will add weight and you would need to re-plate but it will not shift the weight forward which by your front axle weight is what needs doing.

[pepe63xnotuse]

I don't wont be sounding as if I'm making light of the OP's predicament....but just *what are manufactures doing, mounting such a tail-long, "garaged" model, on a chassis with just a 2000kg rear axle rating?... :-S

(* and what are dealers doing, bolting accessories to such things?...)

 

It may've already been said..but what does it weigh with the "garage" empty and with the bikes removed?

 

(...I know they call them a "garage" but you haven't got your Snap-on tool chest and a trolley jack in there, have you? (lol) )

[Mel B]

mentaliss - 2014-04-11 6:18 PM

 

Hi everyone its the pain in the ..... back again....the Ducato plate (under the bonnet) and the Dethleffs sticker both read the same ie:

3500 kg

6000kg

1 1850kg

2 2000kg

 

So this means that I could increase the payload over the front axle currently weighed by us at the local weigh bridge 1390kg But there lies the problem of this van its a low profile, no overhang, so unless the wife and I want to climb over most of the repositioned garage items that would now be stored in the gangway, lounge seats etc we will still be in the mire......Ok the vehicle taxation is less costly but what are the ramifications of a legal higher weight limit? particularly when one talks about Toll issues how on earth does TOLL technology know what the weight of the motorhome etc, etc :-(

 

So, from what you've said above, regardless of whether you uprate or not the capacity on your rear axle will not be increased, so still means that you are overloading it even if your overall weight is below 3850kg, therefore going down the uprating route doesn't seem to offer much of a solution at present.

 

I'd do as has been suggested, take EVERYTHING out of the garage, fill with fuel and water and the rest of your normal kit and get it weighed, you will then know exactly how much spare capacity you have overall and over the rear axle (ie in the garage). Then you need to weigh everything that you want to put back in the garage again and decide what you MUST have and what you will have to live without. There really is no other solution that I can see if you want to keep the MH you have.

[Guest JudgeMental]

wasting your breath Mel! :-S

[mentaliss]

JudgeMental - 2014-04-12 12:25 AM

 

wasting your breath Mel! :-S

 

tell me something JUDGEMENTAL why are you so Nasty 8o| I suppose the classroom bullies use to bully you out in the playground or just that your mom dropped you on your head when you were little :'( :'(