A Frame or Trailer?

[Brian Kirby]

I think you may be confusing what is legal with the conditions an insurer may apply. There is no rigid definition of the legality of a car towed on an A-frame. The practise is not prohibited under any current legislation, so it falls into a "grey" area, in which a flat towed car is presently "deemed" to be a trailer. The presumption appears to be that as a trailer, the car will meet current trailer regulations, although the extent to which a flat towed car fully complies with these remains technically debatable.

 

On insurance, as A-framing it is not illegal, there is nothing to prevent an insurer from insuring it.

 

Normally, with a trailer, the third party risk from the trailer will be covered under the townig vehicle's insurance. That is to say, if the car causes damage to someone or something, your motorhome insurance will pick up that risk - providing the insurer has been notified that you will be doing this.

 

Turning to theft of, fire, or damage to the car, this is covered by the car's insurance. This will remain true for the car while being towed (just as with a trailer of any kind that is insured) but, again, providing that you have advised the car insurer that it has been modified for, and will be, towed via an A-frame.

 

Neither insurer is obliged to accept this risk, it is at their option. However, it seems most are content to do so.

[StuartO]

Not sure where you were going with that concept of legality Brian but I think our ideas are compatible.

 

I was referring to the law which requires insurers, in selling motor insurance, to include, as a minumum, what is called "Road Traffic Act" third party liability cover. This cover has to apply everywhere in UK (not just on roads) and cannot be excluded or limited, because it is the absolute inimum level of cover which any motor policy must provide. It includes third party liability cover for any trailer which might be towed.

 

The law does not oblige insurers to provide anything beyond that, although of course most do. So ifre and theft cover are usually added, as are what are called "comprehensive" cover for damage to the policyholder's vehicle itself - although not usually to any trailer it might be towing.

 

I wasn't commenting on the legality of using an A Frame, which had already been covered in this thread.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Madmaggott - 2014-08-23 10:47 AM

 

After much thought and due deliberation we have decided on an A frame.

 

is not the law due to change regards A frame legality....probably worth checking before shelling out

[Rayjsj]

Madmaggott - 2014-08-23 10:47 AMAfter much thought and due deliberation we have decided on an A frame.

Now I have a further related question which I'm sure can be resolved by forum users as I have been unable to get a proper response from my car insurer:

I am informed that when being towed on the 'A frame' the car becomes, in law, a trailer.  In this case what are the implications regarding the car's insurance?  Is it still fully covered despite it now being  a trailer and 'not' a car? 

My renewal date is 2 days before we are due to get the A frame fitted so I will need to ensure that it is fully legal from renewal.  I have sent an enquiry to the CC insurer's but not had a reply as yet, I instinctively feel that they may be the best to go to in this instance.

On comparison websites the section for modifications does not have A frame but does have towbar; but it's not a towbar is it.

Other members have of course been here before me; am I over complicating this?

We Tow using a 'Car-a-Tow' A-Frame, (post above). We found it easier to have both M/H and Car insured with the Same organisation (Caravan Club) so they are fully aware that they insure both parts of 'the outfit' Both singularly and when hitched together 'on tow'. Both are fully comprehensive, I explained in great length what my requirements were, they said 'That is fine,you are covered'. I also asked wherever I could about supposed changes to the law relating to A-Frame towing, which are supposed to happen in October 2014. Before I got my car converted last October. The Clearest definitive answer came from 'Car-a-tow' ( who I only hope were not telling lies) regarding a question they posed to VOSA or whatever they call themselves now ?: http://www.caratow.com/ Read the 'Click for details' link. to letter from Vosa.They were obviously asking as to whether their long standing Business would still be able to trade after October 2014, they can. I would also add that we probably won't chance towing the car in europe, evidently there isn't the same need as there is in the UK ? perhaps others can comment on that ? We Tow a car because we have no wish to run a large powerful car/4x4 ALL the time, just to tow a Caravan, we use our 'Toad' ALL the time, and when we go away, we take him with us. The UK is NOT very M/H friendly regarding parking,shopping etc., Hence the car. Find the A-Frame very safe and easy to manoeuvre, the van tows it effortlessly. Couldn't have a Trailer because the vans tow limit is only 1060kgs. Ray

[Madmaggott]

Yes, we'd considered putting both vehicles with the same insurer but would like to see how we get on with insuring just the car initially because the van renewal is 7 months after the car.  If push comes to shove we might terminate the van insurance and reinsure with the car insurer should the need arise.

We have deliberated this matter for a long time and had 'decided' on getting a trailer because of all the hoohah about the legalities of the A frame, using it in Spain, etc.  However, due to the logistics of manouvering the unit into and out of our property and storage issues, we looked at it again.  We decided to ignore the 'Spanish question' as if necessary should we visit Spain and feel concerned about towing it I can just drive the car.  When looked at in this way the A frame came out as the most suitable for us.  Having made the decision and booked the fitting our attention has turned to ensuring that we are fully insured when on the road.

 

[keninpalamos]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-20 11:44 PMWe are considering whether to get a trailer for our C1 or get an A Frame fitted.  We would use it mainly if travelling in UK but also on our winter break to the south (Spain/Portugal/France perhaps).  We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking?  Does anyone use a car/trailer and also make use of aires?  This is where we think we might find an A frame to be better in that if necessary we could take it to a car park.  Any constructive thoughts or experiences on the subject would be welcome please, to help us to make a decision.

Thanks

Er...I think you have the wrong vehicle. If you feel the need to tow then get a caravan. A much better idea than an A frame or trailer and car

[keninpalamos]

PJay - 2014-05-21 8:49 AM

 

Currently in Spain. Far more trailers now, though some sites are difficult to park van and trailer on.You would need to pick your stop overs more carefully, but as you would have a car to tour around in, this should not be a problem. More aires now are charging, so you may have to pay for the trailer, if you can get on. Lot more motor bikes/scooters, being towed, this year

PJay

I could be wrong and no doubt be proven so,...but I thought Aires are for campervans and motorhomes. Parking cars, caravans and or trailers takes up someone else's aires space. I have seen some very small 'vans towing cars. what is that all about? Buy a caravan and use the facilities provided for such vehicles. Without abuse can someone explain the need to tow and please don't say I don't want a caravan as you obviously do.

[Rayjsj]

My Answer to Biffo,

I run a small car, a Toyota Yaris, all the time, it suits us perfectly, high MPG,smallish but powerful 1.3 petrol engine (no DPF worries) room in the back for the 2 labradors,with the rear seats folded. BUT no way would i want to tow a caravan with it, it could possibly tow an Eriba but that would be it.

I also have an Autotrail motorhome, in which we 'take off' for upto 3 months at a time, touring our beautiful Country (much of which I had never seen before) The Highlands and islands especially. BUT

we have been finding more and more Local Councils are discriminating against Motorhomes, both for overnighting(some of this I understand,some people take advantage unfortunately) and for ordinary daytime parking for Shopping and tourist spot visiting (this I DO NOT understand at all !) So, Rather than sell our Motorhome, which also,Suits us perfectly, we decided to Take our little car with us. We looked at an 'Ifor Williams' Trailer, but then found out that Trailer + Car took us well over our Tow limit, and we would then have the problem of the Trailer after it was unloaded at 'Both Ends'. We opted for a Car-a-Tow A-frame, a long established company who make a very sturdy and well proven product.

We have not been dissapointed. If you havn't tried it Don't knock it ! I towed a caravan for over 25 years, so I know what that's 'all about'. In my experiences of towing, a car being towed on it's 4 wheels is far more stable, than a caravan (even with extra devices) on 2.

On our Travels we have seen many,many others who have come to the same conclusions that we did, and they all seem very happy with their choice.

For a year I tried Hiring a car via Enterprise, but found their prices quite high over weekends, and the added trouble of returning the car (worries of damage etc.,). Ray

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2014-08-23 1:52 PM

 

Not sure where you were going with that concept of legality Brian but I think our ideas are compatible.

 

I was referring to the law which requires insurers, in selling motor insurance, to include, as a minumum, what is called "Road Traffic Act" third party liability cover. This cover has to apply everywhere in UK (not just on roads) and cannot be excluded or limited, because it is the absolute inimum level of cover which any motor policy must provide. It includes third party liability cover for any trailer which might be towed.

 

The law does not oblige insurers to provide anything beyond that, although of course most do. So ifre and theft cover are usually added, as are what are called "comprehensive" cover for damage to the policyholder's vehicle itself - although not usually to any trailer it might be towing.

 

I wasn't commenting on the legality of using an A Frame, which had already been covered in this thread.

I think we may be at slight cross purposes Stuart. My post was intended to be a reply to madmaggot, not to you, but you obviously posted while I was still typing, so mine ended up immediately below yours. :-)

 

I agree: I think we are both saying essentially the same thing.

 

I raised the issue of legality of the vehicles because if, at some point, someone has an accident while A-framing which is subsequently investigated, and it was found that illegality of the actual combination (particularly as regards the trailer regulations) had contributed, the insurer would be entitled, as I understand it, to invalidate any claim on the ground that the contract had been based on a falsehood. Is it not the case that the third party element would then have to be settled under the MIB's Uninsured Agreement, as arising from an accident with an uninsured vehicle? Obviously it would require a very unusual set of circumstances, but it is a risk, however remote, and insurance is all about risk.

[Guest JudgeMental]

when abroad, airports tend to offer significantly better car hire prices due to competition. Local resort firms tend to take the proverbial

[mildi]

Rayjsj - 2014-08-24 11:50 AM

 

My Answer to Biffo,

I run a small car, a Toyota Yaris, all the time, it suits us perfectly, high MPG,smallish but powerful 1.3 petrol engine (no DPF worries) room in the back for the 2 labradors,with the rear seats folded. BUT no way would i want to tow a caravan with it, it could possibly tow an Eriba but that would be it.

I also have an Autotrail motorhome, in which we 'take off' for upto 3 months at a time, touring our beautiful Country (much of which I had never seen before) The Highlands and islands especially. BUT

we have been finding more and more Local Councils are discriminating against Motorhomes, both for overnighting(some of this I understand,some people take advantage unfortunately) and for ordinary daytime parking for Shopping and tourist spot visiting (this I DO NOT understand at all !) So, Rather than sell our Motorhome, which also,Suits us perfectly, we decided to Take our little car with us. We looked at an 'Ifor Williams' Trailer, but then found out that Trailer + Car took us well over our Tow limit, and we would then have the problem of the Trailer after it was unloaded at 'Both Ends'. We opted for a Car-a-Tow A-frame, a long established company who make a very sturdy and well proven product.

We have not been dissapointed. If you havn't tried it Don't knock it ! I towed a caravan for over 25 years, so I know what that's 'all about'. In my experiences of towing, a car being towed on it's 4 wheels is far more stable, than a caravan (even with extra devices) on 2.

On our Travels we have seen many,many others who have come to the same conclusions that we did, and they all seem very happy with their choice.

For a year I tried Hiring a car via Enterprise, but found their prices quite high over weekends, and the added trouble of returning the car (worries of damage etc.,). Ray

 

HI, Going slightly off topic, we tow with a trailer and as yet don't feel I need to justify to previous response why I don't buy a caravan, maybe because my only car, a Toyota IQ can't tow one but that's my choice.

My question to the people who A-frame is how do you get on about reversing, I have found the need to reverse with the trailer on several occasions which with the trailer has been OK, but can you do this with an A-frame or do you have to unhitch?

Thanks, Mark.

[Rayjsj]

The need to reverse has only occured once, it wasn't easy, but I was able to do it, thanks to the Rear View and reversing camera, i only reversed about 10 feet or so. If a long reverse was required I would Unhitch, I have a Jockey wheel on the A-Frame which can be used, for just such an occasion.

Not sure what the Inertia brakes were doing while I reversed ? but the car did go backwards under control. I checked afterwards and they still worked well, fowards.

In truth I very seldom had to reverse when I towed a caravan,(apart from Pitching) I always tried to avoid it if possible, thats what I do now.

It would of course be possible to jump out, disconnect the Brake cable at the front of the car, get back in and reverse til your 'hearts content', I just hav'nt had to do that yet. Ray

[neilmac]

mildi - 2014-08-24 12:46 PM

My question to the people who A-frame is how do you get on about reversing, I have found the need to reverse with the trailer on several occasions which with the trailer has been OK, but can you do this with an A-frame or do you have to unhitch?

Thanks, Mark.

 

Reversing is fine with practice and very gentle input from the steering of the motorhome :-)

 

 

Or if that code to display the video doesn't work on here the link to a video of reversing around a corner is here

[keninpalamos]

Rayjsj - 2014-08-24 11:50 AM

 

My Answer to Biffo,

I run a small car, a Toyota Yaris, all the time, it suits us perfectly, high MPG,smallish but powerful 1.3 petrol engine (no DPF worries) room in the back for the 2 labradors,with the rear seats folded. BUT no way would i want to tow a caravan with it, it could possibly tow an Eriba but that would be it.

I also have an Autotrail motorhome, in which we 'take off' for upto 3 months at a time, touring our beautiful Country (much of which I had never seen before) The Highlands and islands especially. BUT

we have been finding more and more Local Councils are discriminating against Motorhomes, both for overnighting(some of this I understand,some people take advantage unfortunately) and for ordinary daytime parking for Shopping and tourist spot visiting (this I DO NOT understand at all !) So, Rather than sell our Motorhome, which also,Suits us perfectly, we decided to Take our little car with us. We looked at an 'Ifor Williams' Trailer, but then found out that Trailer + Car took us well over our Tow limit, and we would then have the problem of the Trailer after it was unloaded at 'Both Ends'. We opted for a Car-a-Tow A-frame, a long established company who make a very sturdy and well proven product.

We have not been dissapointed. If you havn't tried it Don't knock it ! I towed a caravan for over 25 years, so I know what that's 'all about'. In my experiences of towing, a car being towed on it's 4 wheels is far more stable, than a caravan (even with extra devices) on 2.

On our Travels we have seen many,many others who have come to the same conclusions that we did, and they all seem very happy with their choice.

For a year I tried Hiring a car via Enterprise, but found their prices quite high over weekends, and the added trouble of returning the car (worries of damage etc.,). Ray

My reply to Rayjsj I did check to see if I said anything about towing with your present car, the Toyota... No cannot see that I did. Eriba make excellent caravans, have done for years. A good choice if you decided to go down that avenue. I agree some councils are a little over zealous with their by-laws regarding motorhomes and some motorhome users do take advantage. Panel vans are a good answer to that as they tend not to be so intrusive, not that I mentioned that. Tow A-frame do make a quality, product. No question about their quality. Williams make excellent trailers, I would not dispute that....never did and I can understand with a car on a trailer, towing with your Autotrail you would be over your towing weight. Most motorhomes would be as they are not expected or designed to tow anything like that sort of weight. That must tell you something. I expect many others are happy with their choice or they would not continue to tow. Obvious really. As someone else has pointed out it's cheaper to hire a car from an airport. More competition apparently. Not much help if you not near an airport. I don't think I suggested hiring a car anyway and I didn't "knock " towing either and how do you know I haven't tried it or even done something similar as part of a former occupation. I still have the view that towing a car with a motorhome or campervan is putting the cart before the horse so to speak and with the "cart" having it's own engine seems a bit wasteful as you cannot use both engines at the same time, apart from being told by the Guardia Civil in Spain to disconnect it and the having to drive both vehicle to your chosen camp site. Sorry you didn't mention anything about going to Spain. Sorry Rayjsj didn't mean to upset you as you are not one of the motorhome drivers who park their cars on continental aires taking the space for campervans and motorhomes. Just a view that's all.

[Madmaggott]

Firstly I would like to extend my thanks to everyone who has contributed meaningfully to my query which, to reiterate, was regarding A-frame and insurance.

At no point did I ask for an opinion as to whether we should instead sell our 4 month old motorhome and purchase a car and caravan and I fail to comprehend why this was seen as an implied question within my text. 

I feel no compulsion to justify our choice of vehicle just as I would not dream of asserting to a complete stranger that they should sell their chosen vehicle and buy my choice instead.  Quite frankly my only response, after re-reading and due consideration is ' butt out'.

 

[mildi]

Rayjsj - 2014-08-24 1:00 PM

 

The need to reverse has only occured once, it wasn't easy, but I was able to do it, thanks to the Rear View and reversing camera, i only reversed about 10 feet or so. If a long reverse was required I would Unhitch, I have a Jockey wheel on the A-Frame which can be used, for just such an occasion.

Not sure what the Inertia brakes were doing while I reversed ? but the car did go backwards under control. I checked afterwards and they still worked well, fowards.

In truth I very seldom had to reverse when I towed a caravan,(apart from Pitching) I always tried to avoid it if possible, thats what I do now.

It would of course be possible to jump out, disconnect the Brake cable at the front of the car, get back in and reverse til your 'hearts content', I just hav'nt had to do that yet. Ray

 

Thanks Neil & Ray

the video made reversing look quite easy, it was just one of the things that put me off the A frame, it is a shame you can't try this out somewhere so you can see which you prefer, A frame or trailer.

Mark.

[Rayjsj]

Madmaggott - 2014-08-24 6:43 PMFirstly I would like to extend my thanks to everyone who has contributed meaningfully to my query which, to reiterate, was regarding A-frame and insurance.

At no point did I ask for an opinion as to whether we should instead sell our 4 month old motorhome and purchase a car and caravan and I fail to comprehend why this was seen as an implied question within my text. 

I feel no compulsion to justify our choice of vehicle just as I would not dream of asserting to a complete stranger that they should sell their chosen vehicle and buy my choice instead.  Quite frankly my only response, after re-reading and due consideration is ' butt out'.

Good for you Jacky, Hope you get on as well as we have with our A-Frame outfit. regards Ray

[Madmaggott]

Rayjsj - 2014-08-25 11:52 AM

Madmaggott - 2014-08-24 6:43 PMFirstly I would like to extend my thanks to everyone who has contributed meaningfully to my query which, to reiterate, was regarding A-frame and insurance.

At no point did I ask for an opinion as to whether we should instead sell our 4 month old motorhome and purchase a car and caravan and I fail to comprehend why this was seen as an implied question within my text. 

I feel no compulsion to justify our choice of vehicle just as I would not dream of asserting to a complete stranger that they should sell their chosen vehicle and buy my choice instead.  Quite frankly my only response, after re-reading and due consideration is ' butt out'.

Good for you Jacky, Hope you get on as well as we have with our A-Frame outfit. regards Ray

 

Thank you Ray, I'm sure we (my OH) will get on just fine with the A-frame.  Actually this has never been part of the process of choosing between the two as he does the driving these days and he has extensive experience with trailers of all sizes both 2 and 4 wheeled.

 

I have had a response from CC insurance and am assured that the comprehensive insurance on the car will cover it whether being towed or not (provided they have been fully informed that this is what we intend to do), the only part not covered is the A-frame itself.

 

Once again, thanks to everyone for the constructive information.

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

mildi - 2014-08-25 10:29 AM

 

Thanks...

the video made reversing look quite easy, it was just one of the things that put me off the A frame, it is a shame you can't try this out somewhere so you can see which you prefer, A frame or trailer.

Mark.

 

...and do bear in mind that the vehicle shown in that video(Vitara?), has a longer wheel base than many "towed" cars...C1/ iQs/Smart cars etc

 

Check out the way that this poor Smart car gets shoved backwards, scrubbing it's front tyres....and then note the hissy fit that it's steering wheel has, when it gets pulled forwards and "rights" itself 8-)

 

 

(..and this is a video put out by the manufacturer... :-S )

[neilmac]

pepe63 - 2014-08-25 7:18 PM

 

...and do bear in mind that the vehicle shown in that video(Vitara?), has a longer wheel base than many "towed" cars...C1/ iQs/Smart cars etc

 

Check out the way that this poor Smart car gets shoved backwards, scrubbing it's front tyres....and then note the hissy fit that it's steering wheel has, when it gets pulled forwards and "rights" itself 8-)

 

 

(..and this is a video put out by the manufacturer... :-S )

 

The Suzuki (Jimny) is actually only about 4" longer than say a C1 so that part will make little difference.

 

That video with the Smart is indeed shocking and the driver of the motorhome shows no mechanical sympathy for it.

 

When changing direction as in the video I showed it can be seen that the manoever requires very light steering movements by the motorhome whilst reversing with just a bit more at the end to push the toad's front wheels over centre. This makes pulling away again much easier on it as the wheels are already to follow the outswing of the rear of the motorhome. Like I said it just takes practice :-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

neilmac - 2014-08-25 7:50 PM

 

The Suzuki (Jimny) is actually only about 4" longer than say a C1 so that part will make little difference.

 

That video with the Smart is indeed shocking and the driver of the motorhome shows no mechanical sympathy for it.

 

.. Like I said it just takes practice :-)

Hi Neil..

Oh yes, I now see it's a Jimny (..it was/is written on the back :$ ).

 

I wonder whether a combination of short wheel base and steering geometry etc, will make some cars neigh on impossible to reverse with an A frame, not without some degree of shoving & scrubbing?...

 

I agree that practice would(should?) help..but just how many A framing MHers would actually know what the wheels of their towed car were doing, whilst reversing?...as long as the vehicles is going where it is shoved, I doubt many would *notice..or even care..? Smart-Tow didn't seem to..and they make A frame systems! :-S

(..*except maybe come MOT time, when the tyres are found to be scrubbed and the steering linkage) shot?).

 

Having said that, I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of folk on the roads pulling trailers and caravans, couldn't reverse them properly/easily if a serious need arose..

[mildi]

pepe63 - 2014-08-26 8:49 AM

 

neilmac - 2014-08-25 7:50 PM

 

The Suzuki (Jimny) is actually only about 4" longer than say a C1 so that part will make little difference.

 

That video with the Smart is indeed shocking and the driver of the motorhome shows no mechanical sympathy for it.

 

.. Like I said it just takes practice :-)

Hi Neil..

Oh yes, I now see it's a Jimny (..it was/is written on the back :$ ).

 

I wonder whether a combination of short wheel base and steering geometry etc, will make some cars neigh on impossible to reverse with an A frame, not without some degree of shoving & scrubbing?...

 

I agree that practice would(should?) help..but just how many A framing MHers would actually know what the wheels of their towed car were doing, whilst reversing?...as long as the vehicles is going where it is shoved, I doubt many would *notice..or even care..? Smart-Tow didn't seem to..and they make A frame systems! :-S

(..*except maybe come MOT time, when the tyres are found to be scrubbed and the steering linkage) shot?).

 

Having said that, I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of folk on the roads pulling trailers and caravans, couldn't reverse them properly/easily if a serious need arose..

 

 

I have seen the smart video before, that's why I wanted to know if you can sensibly reverse with an A-frame. I will still stick with my trailer option (but may have to sell car and trailer in the next few weeks as we need a bigger car) as for us it didn't have to make any changes to the car which was new when we bought it and had a 5 year warranty. I also had one to one trailer lessons before we set off on our six month trip so if I had to I could reverse with confidence.

It is a personal choice and it is whatever works for you.

[neilmac]

pepe63 - 2014-08-26 8:49 AM

 

 

I agree that practice would(should?) help..but just how many A framing MHers would actually know what the wheels of their towed car were doing, whilst reversing?...as long as the vehicles is going where it is shoved, I doubt many would *notice..or even care..? Smart-Tow didn't seem to..and they make A frame systems! :-S

 

The Jimny weighs around 1035kg so its no heavy weight and it definitely gives feedback if the wheels go over-center while reversing, it would need a very determined push to keep it going.... It will even give a lot more resistance like that on loose surfaces and it will over-center more easily too.

 

The thing with an a-frame though is that if a big mistake is made it only takes a couple more minutes to uncouple and couple up again (again with practice)

[Archiesgrandad]

An American acquaintance had parents who lived full-time in a big RV with a tag axle and towed a Jeep Cherokee behind on an A frame in the States. They were true Snowbirds, south to Florida for the winter and north to the Great Lakes or Rockies for the summer. Distance no object.

AGD