A Frame or Trailer?

[Madmaggott]

We are considering whether to get a trailer for our C1 or get an A Frame fitted.  We would use it mainly if travelling in UK but also on our winter break to the south (Spain/Portugal/France perhaps).  We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking?  Does anyone use a car/trailer and also make use of aires?  This is where we think we might find an A frame to be better in that if necessary we could take it to a car park.  Any constructive thoughts or experiences on the subject would be welcome please, to help us to make a decision.

Thanks

 

[Derek Uzzell]

"...We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking?"

 

Towing one motor vehicle with another continues to contravene Spanish law (this has ben emphasised repeatedly on this forum), so the design of a towing system's braking system is irrelevant.

 

Towing a car on an A-frame in Spain risks being fined by the Spanish police. If you wish to take a car with you to Spain, the only way to remove that risk would be to tow a trailer that carries your car.

 

(Not sure about Portugal - earlier forum discusssions suggest that their law is similar to the Spanish one.)

 

I've seen motorhomes towing cars (on an A-frame or trailer) at French 'aires'. Obviously the extended length of the motorhome + car/trailer will make smaller aires difficult to access but, as long as you are prepared to accept that manoeuvring will be more complicated, there's nothing to prevent you using aires. As you rightly say, it should be easier if the car is being A-frame towed than being carried on a trailer, and it should potentially be more secure to park the car elsewhere (though the majority of French motorhome service-points will be located on a car park) if the car is not on a trailer.

 

It's really down to whether or not you are prepared to risk being fined when travelling in Spain/Portugal.

[mildi]

Hello,

We have a Brian James trailer for our IQ which will also fit you C1. I can only speak for the trailer side as we have never used an A frame.

No adaptations are needed to the car so if you change you car at a later date it will just be the price of the car.

Make sure your motorhome can tow the combined weight of the car and trailer.

Do you have space to park the trailer at home?

Trailer has a spare wheel - the car doesn't

Trailer has a motormover fitted, this has made life so easy, I think we would have got rid of the trailer if there was no mover. When you get to a campsite pitch, most times you need to put the trailer with the hitch facing into the pitch so you can drive the car off, you can move the trailer with the car on, it really is a doddle - just me and a remote control. if the pitch is small we just leave the ramps down and park the car on the trailer.

I haven't used the trailer in the UK only in Europe, last trip was for over six months with the only issue being one or two places we stayed charged extra for the car so we didn't stay at those places for long, also we don't use Aires so I have no experience of that either.

We use the tunnel as they don't charge per length, just campervan & trailer also the dog can stay with us.

We have a tyre pressure monitor fitted and also puncture safe in all the tyres just for piece of mind.

We took a long time to decide between A frame and trailer weighing up the pros and cons and I think the choice of trailer was right for us. If I had got the choice wrong we could just sell the trailer and minimize any loss.

I found no change in fuel consumption when towing (amazed me!)

It was a bit slower going up hill.

No spare in the motorhome but carried it in the back of the car when we are travelling.

Twin camera on the motorhome means we can keep an eye on it when we are towing.

Good luck with you choice I am sure you will get lots of advice on both A frame & trailer but it is what will work best for you.

I did have a one to one trailer training lesson and it was well worth the money.

Mark.

[PJay]

Currently in Spain. Far more trailers now, though some sites are difficult to park van and trailer on.You would need to pick your stop overs more carefully, but as you would have a car to tour around in, this should not be a problem. More aires now are charging, so you may have to pay for the trailer, if you can get on. Lot more motor bikes/scooters, being towed, this year

PJay

[PJay]

Currently in Spain. Far more trailers now, though some sites are difficult to park van and trailer on.You would need to pick your stop overs more carefully, but as you would have a car to tour around in, this should not be a problem. More aires now are charging, so you may have to pay for the trailer, if you can get on. Lot more motor bikes/scooters, being towed, this year

PJay

[malc d]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-20 11:44 PM

 

We are considering whether to get a trailer for our C1 or get an A Frame fitted.  We would use it mainly if travelling in UK but also on our winter break to the south (Spain/Portugal/France perhaps).  We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking? 

 

  >

 

 

As I understand it, In Spain, towing another vehicle with its' wheels on the ground is illegal.

 

 

:-|

[hymer1942]

No difference in MPG .???, impossible to tow a ton plus and keep the same MPG. Barrie

[neilmac]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-20 11:44 PMWe are considering whether to get a trailer for our C1 or get an A Frame fitted.  We would use it mainly if travelling in UK but also on our winter break to the south (Spain/Portugal/France perhaps).  We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking?  Does anyone use a car/trailer and also make use of aires?  This is where we think we might find an A frame to be better in that if necessary we could take it to a car park.  Any constructive thoughts or experiences on the subject would be welcome please, to help us to make a decision.

Thanks

We use an A-frame and use it in Spain, its one of the latest electronic braking setups but I don't think that will affect the 'legal' issue.Should you be stopped in Spain your only chance is to politely explain (in your best rehearsed Spanish) that the car is officially a trailer because of the A-frame, which its why it displays the red triangles and numberplate of the towing vehicle. Any arguing the point with the Spanish police will I'm sure result in being told to disconnect and/or being issued with a fine.On our last trip in March we shared a garage forecourt in Huesca with the Guardia while they also refueled - they showed no interest at all. The same reaction when we have been passed by patrol cars and waved through road blocks etc.We accept that we may get pulled or we may not....Practically speaking from my own experience of both an A-frame is much more convenient to live with than a trailer especially as we nearly always use Aires. It takes moments to disconnect and stores neatly away.

[Rowan Lee]

We use a tow Bars 2 Tow Cars frame because we can't manage a trailer and don't have the rear axle capacity for the noseweight. We have towed in Spain with no problems but last winter we took the decision to unhitch at the French border and drive separately in Spain because it is illegal to tow a vehicle on its wheels. We didn't think it was worth the risk. Supposing you have an accident, will the insurance cover it? As I said, we decided not to risk it. Elsewhere, no problem, it's great. What works for us may not work for you.

[Madmaggott]

Many thanks for the replies, Derek for the clear explanation and everyone for the useful thoughts and experiences.  We are shortly to leave for France and will be especially looking for if/how people manage on aires. 

We hadn't thought that sites would present issues so thanks for highlighting those points for consideration.

Hadn't thought of a mover fitted to a trailer although we used to have one on our caravan so know just how convenient they are. 

Can anyone advise the weight of a trailer of, I suppose 10 foot, which our C1 would fit?

I will be passing all comments to my better half for consideration.

Thanks

 

[mildi]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-21 7:40 PMMany thanks for the replies, Derek for the clear explanation and everyone for the useful thoughts and experiences.  We are shortly to leave for France and will be especially looking for if/how people manage on aires. 

We hadn't thought that sites would present issues so thanks for highlighting those points for consideration.

Hadn't thought of a mover fitted to a trailer although we used to have one on our caravan so know just how convenient they are. 

Can anyone advise the weight of a trailer of, I suppose 10 foot, which our C1 would fit?

I will be passing all comments to my better half for consideration.

Thanks

Brian James 150-100 micro max trailer will fit and should weigh about 300kg plus the mover if you require it.Mark.

[Madmaggott]

mildi - 2014-05-21 10:57 PM

Madmaggott - 2014-05-21 7:40 PMMany thanks for the replies, Derek for the clear explanation and everyone for the useful thoughts and experiences.  We are shortly to leave for France and will be especially looking for if/how people manage on aires. 

We hadn't thought that sites would present issues so thanks for highlighting those points for consideration.

Hadn't thought of a mover fitted to a trailer although we used to have one on our caravan so know just how convenient they are. 

Can anyone advise the weight of a trailer of, I suppose 10 foot, which our C1 would fit?

I will be passing all comments to my better half for consideration.

Thanks

Brian James 150-100 micro max trailer will fit and should weigh about 300kg plus the mover if you require it.Mark.

 

Thanks Mark; had a quick look on their site and sent enquiry.

 

[mildi]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-22 1:59 PM

mildi - 2014-05-21 10:57 PM

Madmaggott - 2014-05-21 7:40 PMMany thanks for the replies, Derek for the clear explanation and everyone for the useful thoughts and experiences.  We are shortly to leave for France and will be especially looking for if/how people manage on aires. 

We hadn't thought that sites would present issues so thanks for highlighting those points for consideration.

Hadn't thought of a mover fitted to a trailer although we used to have one on our caravan so know just how convenient they are. 

Can anyone advise the weight of a trailer of, I suppose 10 foot, which our C1 would fit?

I will be passing all comments to my better half for consideration.

Thanks

Brian James 150-100 micro max trailer will fit and should weigh about 300kg plus the mover if you require it.Mark.

 

Thanks Mark; had a quick look on their site and sent enquiry.

You could try looking for a second hand one, I managed to find one at BDS trailers in Sheffield>Mark.

[Rayjsj]

Madmaggott - 2014-05-20 11:44 PMWe are considering whether to get a trailer for our C1 or get an A Frame fitted.  We would use it mainly if travelling in UK but also on our winter break to the south (Spain/Portugal/France perhaps).  We know of the question over A frames in Spain but believe this is resolved by the new generation A frame design which no longer uses the old caravan type braking?  Does anyone use a car/trailer and also make use of aires?  This is where we think we might find an A frame to be better in that if necessary we could take it to a car park.  Any constructive thoughts or experiences on the subject would be welcome please, to help us to make a decision.

Thanks

Hello, We are away at the moment, up in the Scottish Highlands, towing our Toyota Yaris on an A-Frame for the first Time, we should have done it ages ago, so much easier than being turned away by Height Barriers and petty 'small print' parking restrictions. Ours is a 'Car a Tow' which uses the 'Over-run' braking system, with which I have found no problems. No noticeable depreciation in MPG whilst towing,very small anyway, Have a Twin rearview Camera, which is pretty much essential in my opinion. No trailer to store either at home or more importantly onsite. We could not use a trailer anyway,as our car + a trailer would have put us well above our tow limit for our Autotrail Savannah 1060kg. Have no intention of using the system in Spain or Portugal, altough may venture to France and Holland one day. Go for it ! Both Car and Motorhome are insured through the Caravan Club, who are aware that we tow using an A-Frame. For us there was NO choice. As I understand Spanish Law, it is the Act of towing one vehicle with another that is illegal, and covincing a Spanish policeman that a Car is not a vehicle but a Trailer ?? Well....good luck with that. Still think that 'A-Frames' are great and SAFE ! Ray

[Guest peter]

I quite agree Ray. Sod humping a trailer around on a pitch and storing it at home.

[Derek Uzzell]

Rayjsj - 2014-05-22 2:23 PM

 

...Have no intention of using the system in Spain or Portugal, altough may venture to France and Holland one day...

 

I don't know what the legal position is in Holland regarding the A-frame towing practice, but there seems to be little doubt that it conflicts with French law.

 

In mid-2013 the FFCC (Fédération Française de Camping et de Caravaning) sought advice from the French Sub-Directorate of Road Education that deals with 'technical' issues.

 

The FFCC was told that vehicle combinations were specifically defined within Article R 311-1 of the French Highway Traffic Act. A combination involving a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle was not defined within the Article. Consequently (other than when the vehicle being towed had broken down) that combination was illegal in France. Thus motorhomes towing cars were legally prohibited from travelling on French roads. For a motorhome to legally tow a car, the car must be carried on a purpose-designed trailer.

 

(And, yes, I know there are companies marketing A-frames in France and that plenty of French motorcaravanners are A-frame towing there, apparently provoking no interest from the French police. But that's the French legal position...)

 

 

[PJay]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-05-22 6:49 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2014-05-22 2:23 PM

 

...Have no intention of using the system in Spain or Portugal, altough may venture to France and Holland one day...

 

I don't know what the legal position is in Holland regarding the A-frame towing practice, but there seems to be little doubt that it conflicts with French law.

 

In mid-2013 the FFCC (Fédération Française de Camping et de Caravaning) sought advice from the French Sub-Directorate of Road Education that deals with 'technical' issues.

 

The FFCC was told that vehicle combinations were specifically defined within Article R 311-1 of the French Highway Traffic Act. A combination involving a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle was not defined within the Article. Consequently (other than when the vehicle being towed had broken down) that combination was illegal in France. Thus motorhomes towing cars were legally prohibited from travelling on French roads. For a motorhome to legally tow a car, the car must be carried on a purpose-designed trailer.

 

(And, yes, I know there are companies marketing A-frames in France and that plenty of French motorcaravanners are A-frame towing there, apparently provoking no interest from the French police. But that's the French legal position...)

 

 

derek

There will always be people who float the law, and then scream like h### when caught! Currently in Spain, and there are a lot more trailers about this year, so maybe the message is hitting home

PJay

PS seen 1 a frame, used by a BRIT on a rally with the Autotrail Club, personalised number plates , as well !!

PJay

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-05-22 6:49 PM..........................In mid-2013 the FFCC (Fédération Française de Camping et de Caravaning) sought advice from the French Sub-Directorate of Road Education that deals with 'technical' issues.

 

The FFCC was told that vehicle combinations were specifically defined within Article R 311-1 of the French Highway Traffic Act. A combination involving a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle was not defined within the Article. Consequently (other than when the vehicle being towed had broken down) that combination was illegal in France. Thus motorhomes towing cars were legally prohibited from travelling on French roads. For a motorhome to legally tow a car, the car must be carried on a purpose-designed trailer..................

The above corresponds exactly with my information, probably from the same French magazine source!

 

The point seems to be that whereas the French police generally turn a "blind eye" to A-frame towing (possibly on instruction, possibly with an eye to fostering tourism), you will be legally in the wrong, and therefore with little defence, should you be caught speeding or should your vehicle become involved in some incident that the police attend. The A-frame infringement would presumably then become a further issue to be taken into account. It is, as stated above, a risk. The only way of avoiding these risks is to tow the car on a trailer, or to use the car to tow a caravan.

[StuartO]

Valid point about having to store the trailer at home but I use an Ifor Williams CT136 which is a single axle trailer and it's remarkably easy to manoeuvre around, even with the car loaded. It's designed for lightweight sports cars like the Caterham Seven so it's long for our Toyota IQ but even that's an advantage when it comes to reversing and the length makes that easier. Bit more expensive on ferries I suppose but not on the Chunnel.

 

I bought ours second hand off EBay for less than half the new price and should get the same or better money back easily if I sell. That makes it a "free" way to tow a car compared with the cost and depreciation of A Frames. The same trailer is also available with twin axles, which gives a bigger payload, but the single axle version has enough payload for a small car and is much easier to manoeuvre around. It's also less popular, so sells for less second hand. I'm very happy with it.

 

 

[stantheman]

Don't use our A-frame abroad (only the Isle of Wight!), but have met people using them in Holland without any reported problem. Still, that doesn't mean it's legal.

[snail]

Hi, not sure but thought trailers not allowed on aires? not that it will stop some

 

Only other thought which did happen to us, was with aires that have automatic payment barriers, we got onto an aire to find no spaces...

 

Because the auto barrier also counts vehicles on, so knows when full

 

Unfortunatley two vans were on with cars in tow and counted in as one vehicle, and then put car/trailer in next bay beside them, thus taking two spaces but only counted in as one!

 

So please avoid these type if you go ahead....thanks

 

snail

[sshortcircuit]

I have been on many aires and seen many trailers so would suggest there is no reason why trailers cannot be taken on. I have been on one aires with an automatic barrier but no doubt there will be others about. Barriers are expensive to install and maintain so cannot see councils rushing to install them unless they see a huge return on the investment.

[StuartO]

snail - 2014-05-25 5:56 PM

 

Hi, not sure but thought trailers not allowed on aires? not that it will stop some

 

Only other thought which did happen to us, was with aires that have automatic payment barriers, we got onto an aire to find no spaces...

 

Because the auto barrier also counts vehicles on, so knows when full

 

Unfortunatley two vans were on with cars in tow and counted in as one vehicle, and then put car/trailer in next bay beside them, thus taking two spaces but only counted in as one!

 

So please avoid these type if you go ahead....thanks

 

snail

 

Where on earth did you get the idea that trailers aren't allowed on Aires?

 

I've used many aires with a trailer and had Frenchmen helping me to park up.. On the very few occassions where space was tight I've always found a way of parking it so as to cause minimum inconvenience to others and never has it been necessary to take up two motorhome spaces. Mostly of course Aires don't have marked out spaces although some do. I encountered one Aire which has a chicane of wooden posts, which I assumed was designed to prevent caravans being taken inside and would have been tight with a car trailer but we didnt have our trailer with us then, so it wasn't a problem.

 

Better that motorhomers show consideration in that sort of way than to ask other motorhomers not to use Aires with trailers in case it inconveniences them - that would be displaying selfishness wouldn't it, in the same way as using up two motorhome spaces unnecessarily if others might need them?

[Madmaggott]

After much thought and due deliberation we have decided on an A frame.

Now I have a further related question which I'm sure can be resolved by forum users as I have been unable to get a proper response from my car insurer:

I am informed that when being towed on the 'A frame' the car becomes, in law, a trailer.  In this case what are the implications regarding the car's insurance?  Is it still fully covered despite it now being  a trailer and 'not' a car? 

My renewal date is 2 days before we are due to get the A frame fitted so I will need to ensure that it is fully legal from renewal.  I have sent an enquiry to the CC insurer's but not had a reply as yet, I instinctively feel that they may be the best to go to in this instance.

On comparison websites the section for modifications does not have A frame but does have towbar; but it's not a towbar is it.

Other members have of course been here before me; am I over complicating this?

 

[StuartO]

For purposes of third party risks, cover for a trailer (while attached, including becoming detached while being towed) is part of the towing vehicle's cover - and as far as I know it's part of the legal minimum cover which insurers cannot limit, exclude or renage on, so you should be OK.

 

This provide no cover while the "trailer" is detached, so if it became a runaway and caused damage while parked separately from your MH then the car's insurance cover would apply, at least for third party purposes, as above.

 

Whether your insurance will provide any "comprehensive" element of cover in connection with A frame towing is another matter and you need to read your policy documents or ask them.

 

When being towed with an A frame a car becomes a trailer and therefore subject, because it weighs more than 750kg, to the legal requirement to have effective trailer brakes. Hence the need for the assisted brake servo provisions which some A frame suppliers incorporate.

 

Good luck!