The rise of the fruitcake..............

[CliveH]

I suggest you "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" Brian :-S

 

 

 

 

 

[CliveH]

Symbol Owner - 2014-05-27 4:59 PM

 

bigal55 - 2014-05-27 4:32 PM

Colin, during the expenses scandal, Jack Straw, a long time minister, stated "I'm not very good with paperwork" when questioned about his expenses. They made him a lord.

 

Oh, no they didn't, Alan, when I looked at the recent House of Commons debate in which the current Home Secretary, Theresa May was making a statement concerning the undercover police officers who spied on the Lawrence family, there was Jack Straw, M.P., the member for Blackburn recalling his own experiences wuth police surveillance when (as I remember well) he was President of the National Union of Students he's still a backbencher -- I think.

 

Colin.

 

And i doubt that they will seeing as how he is highly sceptical of the workings of the EU - calling it undemocratic and stating:-

 

"I am now clear that there is a major democratic deficit within the EU. And it is absolutely certain, in my judgment, that the mechanism that was established 30 years ago to fill this gap of the democratic deficit, which was a directly elected European parliament, has not worked and, in my judgment, cannot work in that form. And the paradox is that as the European parliament has been given more powers it has become less, not more, legitimate and that is shown by the drop in the average [election] turnout across Europe."

 

And this was from the Guardian - so it must be true (lol)

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/21/european-parliament-abolish-jack-straw

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2014-05-27 5:05 PM.............................Or we have the situation as seen with Greece - where the elected Government was pushed to oneside and the country is ruled by officials put in place by the unelected muppets within the EU..................

But, have a look at the Wiki biogs of both Monti and Pappademos, and one gets a rather different flavour of how each came to be appointed as interim prime ministers.

 

Both sitting PM had offered to resign, albeit possibly at gun-point. The existing presidents and politicians in both countries, after a degree of foot stamping and shouting, agreed to accept them as interim prime ministers. Neither is still in office. Exceptional times call for exceptional measures.

 

The chaos that engulfed both countries was surely exceptional, and the way both had cheated their way into the Euro, and then suffered a major prat-fall, meant that those who were being asked to bail them out were, IMO, entitled to seek better heads to do the job.

 

There were alternatives for both countries, but they would have lost the support vital support to their continued membership of the Euro had they chosen to reject what was on offer.

 

I think this really has less to do with loss of democracy, than with the wisdom of good governments adopting sound financial and fiscal policy. It was possibly rough justice, but both countries subsequently gained new prime ministers, and have since held normal elections. Democracy did not die, it just got a reality check. That reality was, IMO, that corrupt governments (true in both cases) eventually descent into chaos (which I find gently reassuring) from which someone has to extract them. That the "someone" in both cases were institutions from outside the states concerned is, given the circumstances at the time, not so surprising when one bears in mind the huge uncertainties of the events.

 

The ramifications for other Euroland states were highly uncertain if either defaulted on its debts, or withdrew from the Euro. So, a solution was patched together and, by and large, worked. Breast-beating over the relatively undemocratic appointment of a couple of prime ministers, both of whom, in different ways, gained the support of the democratically elected parliaments they relied upon to govern, seems a bit idealistically naïve to me. OK for journalists to indulge in, and a valid debating point for the Oxford Union, but what, in the real world, would have been the realistic, workable, alternative?

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2014-05-27 5:55 PM

 

I suggest you "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" Brian :-S

In answer to what, please, Clive? :-)

[CliveH]

Brian Kirby - 2014-05-27 6:18 PM

 

CliveH - 2014-05-27 5:55 PM

 

I suggest you "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" Brian :-S

In answer to what, please, Clive? :-)

 

Your question Brian:-

 

"So my question is, is it the European Parliament who votes in these issues to instruct the executive or, if not them, then who? I only ask because for it to be true that "individual states have little or no say in what the EU does" either the Council of Ministers or the European Council must, it seems to me, be abrogating their responsibilities. Is this really the case?"

 

The current "Greek Tragedy" has graphically demonstrated the "power" of the unelected technocrats of the EU.

 

For the Europhiles - this is a very unwelcome "gift" indeed ..................... :-S

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bigal55]

Symbol Owner - 2014-05-27 4:59 PM

 

bigal55 - 2014-05-27 4:32 PM

Colin, during the expenses scandal, Jack Straw, a long time minister, stated "I'm not very good with paperwork" when questioned about his expenses. They made him a lord.

 

Oh, no they didn't, Alan, when I looked at the recent House of Commons debate in which the current Home Secretary, Theresa May was making a statement concerning the undercover police officers who spied on the Lawrence family, there was Jack Straw, M.P., the member for Blackburn recalling his own experiences wuth police surveillance when (as I remember well) he was President of the National Union of Students he's still a backbencher -- I think.

 

Colin.

Sorry got the lord bit wrong, but to me thats even worse, we have someone who admits he,s no good with paperwork making decisions on lives. try telling H.M.RC. that you are no good with paperwork,. my point is that you said farage is a buffoon with his if buts and maybes, agreed, straw was on the front bench from 1987-2010 who is the buffoon the one who misses the apostraphe or the one who doesn,t know about paperwork or the numpties who keep voting for the people who milked the system that they created.

[CliveH]

I do not mind politicians coming over as buffoons Alan. In some ways it is an endearing trait that makes them more "human" than the plastic-people we see more normally in Westminster.

 

Better a buffoon than a B'liar for a start!

 

But my point that so irritates the pro Europhiles (NOTE! - I am pro the EU as a trading block - but anti the Euro as a one size fits all currency) is probably best described by Tony Benn when discussing the Maastricht Treaty debate:-

 

"To a democrat, a good King is never better than a bad Parliament."

 

And on this point I entirely agree with him.

 

What bothers an awful lot of us is that without our realising it - such treaties and those that followed. actually gave the European Technocrats the power to dismiss elected officials in the name of protecting the Euro!

 

The electorate be damned!!!!!

 

And it is THAT attitude that I believe has driven the anti EU vote across so many EU member states.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bigal55]

clive i agree with you may be i did not make my point clear

 

Brian So my question is, is it the European Parliament who votes in these issues to instruct the executive or, if not them, then who? I only ask because for it to be true that "individual states have little or no say in what the EU does" either the Council of Ministers or the European Council must, it seems to me, be abrogating their responsibilities. Is this really the case?

 

the people we should have had referendum o n every changge in our society.

[CliveH]

I agree Alan - and whereas I do believe that every really important decision that directly affects a nation should require a referendum - I also believe that that countries elected representatives should be the only people to be able to decide on the "everyday" political decisions.

 

After all - we elect them to represent us - so they have that responsibility AND accountability.

 

Greece is said to have given us the "Gift of Democracy" - and I do believe that this is true,

 

What Greece has given us more recently is the "Gift" of seeing EXACTLY to what depths the mandarins of the Eurozone will stoop to in order to prop up an ideology. Firstly break their stated own rules to get basket case economies like Greece INTO the Eurozone - and secondly - when it all goes pear-shaped, subvert the democratic process (IN THE BIRTHPLACE OF DEMOCRACY! 8-) ) to protect "the system".

 

Can you wonder at an electoral back-lash from many people - right across Europe - for which these actions of the EU Technocrats was altogether unacceptable.

 

Especially as those Technocrats are not elected!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

The real Greek tragedy surely, is their record of corrupt, clientalist, governments dating back to the demise of the colonels (and before, was that not where they came in?). This lies at the root of their problems, and has been the Achille's heel of their economic development, and IMO the principal cause of their longstanding fiscal laxity.

 

However that may be, you haven't really answered my question (not addressed to you personally, BTW) as to who, in the ordinary course of events, actually makes the policy decisions within the EU. Those you cite as "unelected technocrats of the EU" (though you originally added in the IMF plus, if I remember, the ECB much also had had a role) obviously had a major hand in events post the crash, but they were trying to handle a pressing, severe, problem that critically affected the Euro, and those states which had adopted it. As I said, exceptional circumstances, that did not directly affect the non-Euro states.

 

I do not think those circumstances are the model for normal transactions within the EU, and it is the way those normal transactions are decided that interests me. My current understanding is based on this from WIKI:

 

"There are three political institutions which hold the executive and legislative power of the Union. The Council represents governments, the Parliament represents citizens and the Commission represents the European interest. Essentially, the Council, Parliament or another party place a request for legislation to the Commission. The Commission then drafts this and presents it to the Parliament and Council, where in most cases both must give their assent. Although the exact nature of this depends upon the legislative procedure in use, once it is approved and signed by both bodies it becomes law. The Commission's duty is to ensure it is implemented by dealing with the day-to-day running of the Union and taking others to Court if they fail to comply."

 

The parliament is directly elected by the populations of the member states. The Council comprises the relevant ministers of each of the 28 member states. The Commission is the executive that implements, but does not decide upon, the policies.

 

Although somewhat labyrinthine (even omitting the other four EU institutions!), this seems to me to mean that policy is decided entirely by elected politicians, and that both those directly elected, and those ministers in effect co-opted from national governments, must both agree on any legislation before it can become law. Unless the WIKI pieces is factually wrong, therefore, I can't see where democracy generally fails. The unelected technocrats are there to do as they are told, and implement what the parliament and the ministers decide is to be implemented.

 

It cannot be expected, with a 500 odd million population spread over 28 states, that UK interests will always be served, so there will inevitably be tensions from time to time as other interests take precedence. However, having joined a democratic club, losing out on a few issues from time to time does not IMO make the club undemocratic.

 

The problem we are now seeing (i.e. the rising fruitcakes), I think, is that when confronted with arguments that range beyond the narrower interests of the UK, our ministers and our MEPs (and doubtless those of other states) reasonably agree to things that they know will be unpopular at home, and then blame the Commission for foisting them with poor policy, rather than explaining to their electorates what they have agreed, and why. So, the public becomes suspicious of this unelected technocracy that they they are encouraged to see as answerable to no-one, and want their countries back. In effect, by being duplicitous, I think the politicians have simply poisoned their own well! But, as ever, I'm open to reasonable, factually based, persuasion. :-)

[malc d]

My take on the current 'situation'.

 

Western Europe is suffering from two things - High levels of immigration - and Globalisation.

 

But it is being run by people who are largely unaffected by either.

 

The rise of UKIP and other fringe parties is among those who feel they are being adversely affected, or ignored.

 

 

 

:-|

[CliveH]

Brian Kirby - 2014-05-27 9:38 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"There are three political institutions which hold the executive and legislative power of the Union. The Council represents governments, the Parliament represents citizens and the Commission represents the European interest. Essentially, the Council, Parliament or another party place a request for legislation to the Commission. The Commission then drafts this and presents it to the Parliament and Council, where in most cases both must give their assent. Although the exact nature of this depends upon the legislative procedure in use, once it is approved and signed by both bodies it becomes law. The Commission's duty is to ensure it is implemented by dealing with the day-to-day running of the Union and taking others to Court if they fail to comply."

 

)

 

Brian - the elected Prime Minister of Greece promised the Greek people a Referendum on accepting the bailout that the EU offered.

 

But the Greek Prime Minister was then forced to withdraw the referendum on the bailout that he had promised the Greek people and indeed been elected on as part of his parties manifesto. His coalition agreed that the referendum should take place.

 

Europe’s rulers made it clear to the Greek PM that democracy has no role to play in the decision.

 

Greece was told to vote on the deal that was handed to it or Greece would be out of the EU.

 

The chastened PM warned the Greek parliament that the only way to remain in the EU is to submit to the dictate.

 

And the Technocrats went in to oversee the deals implementation.

 

But I feel you are constructing another "Strawman" argument here Brian - in that I have answered your question to my satisfaction - it my answer is not the one you want to hear - then sorry but that is your problem not mine.

 

But I believe you have pretty much answered it yourself (or wiki did for you)

 

"The Commission's duty is to ensure it is implemented by dealing with the day-to-day running of the Union and taking others to Court if they fail to comply."

 

So a country can not agree with a law as agreed by the Council and the Parliament - but the unelected EU Commission has the power to enforce that law on that country. That is surely the issue.

 

The issue is not - nor it ever has been for me - the fiscal ineptitude of EU member states. The fact that some countries are badly run is a fact of life. I am old enough to remember the IMF bailing the UK out thanks to yet another fiscal disaster that was due to Labour mismanagement (it does seem to be a bit of a recurring habit for them) - No, the issue is as I have already said:-

 

a) how did the EU fiddle the rules to allow the likes of Greece to become part of the Eurozone

 

and

 

b) once in the Eurozone, why oh why did no one see the debacle that was Greece fiscal ineptitude?

 

and

 

c) why was an elected government forced out of office because they wanted to ask the people if they wanted to remain part of the Eurozone?

 

It is my belief that the non-elected, but appointed Commissioners had the power to do what they did to Greece. The irony of such action to the country that gave us democracy is considerable.

 

I feel it is somewhat of an irrelevance to keep asking exactly how the machinations of the EU allowed such an event to happen - the issue is that those of us who were under the happy illusion that in things like elected governments, we still had an individual say - via our vote!

 

What happened in Greece shattered that belief and I firmly believe that many across Europe feel the same way. This belief on my part is down to dealing with many financial institutions that are both EU and worldwide companies. And I can assure you that many senior people had - and still do have - deep misgivings about the powers that the EU suddenly invoked.

 

We are now seeing the outcome of that disquiet.

 

You try to make out that the issue is simply one of "rising fruitcakes" - but my belief is that people saw what happened and said - given the choice I will vote against this - and they did.

 

The social unrest in Greece and other PIIGS is considerable. The effects on individuals is profound. Young people realising they may never have a job unless they leave their country of birth.

 

What has been happening in Greece is not reported in MSM here in the UK - we get it in the financial press but I am staggered that nobody otherwise bothers with what is happening.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/12/us-greece-strike-idUSBREA2B0HZ20140312

 

Unemployment is Greece is still over 25%. Amongst the under 30's it is even higher. This is causing huge social problems - and Greece is not alone.

 

The barter economy/black economy is stronger than the official economy.

 

Greece is still a basket case, others not much better.

 

The ill will of the populations of the PIIGS is such that their economies could take more than one generation to fully recover.

 

There is a short term patch been put on the infected wound that is the Euro - if it recovers then the cost of that recovery will be enormous. If history repeats itself and we have another fiscal crisis then we could be looking at a whole new ball game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CliveH]

nowtelse2do - 2014-05-26 6:24 PM

 

Dave, did you once say a bit of you is from the Isle of Dogs (I don't wish to know which bit) :D

 

And your name wouldn't happen to be Mustahva Pouffe would it....read on, some good old Anglo Saxon and Uddersfield names here.

 

..............................................................................

 

 

Watching the voting returns last night on the telly the commentator apologised for a delay in the Tower Hamlets declaration.

 

For those 'oop north' Tower Hamlets is an area of central London - they have problems.

 

This morning a councillor from TH (Peter Golds) went public on his version of what went on.

 

This is not meant to be a party poplitical broadcast (they are all theiving ba****ds) but makes interesting reading.

 

 

I was, for obvious reasons, at both omnishambles. We were asked to attend the Mile End Leisure centre at 2pm, Sunday for the council counts with the European count commencing at 4pm. We were let in at 3pm and then the chaos started.

 

Any checks on people attending soon collapsed, particularly when the Supreme Ruler, Mayor Lutfur, was instructing his fan club from across London to walk in and enjoy the panto.

 

However, ex Councillor Kabir Ahmed (Tower Hamlets First, Weavers ward) was barred from entering the count as he had revealed details of the first figures on his facebook page. Presumably he stayed at home in Gants Hill, Redbridge.

 

There were arguments, threats, and chaos at the counting tables. Tower Hamlets First supporters were challenging vote after vote, forcing supporters of other candidates away from the tables. They often made their points ( excuse the pun) with pencils and pens, against ballot papers.The supreme ruler smiled, whilst checking town hall staff were not stopping his supporters from doing exactly what they wanted.

 

Former Cllr Mohammed Shahid Ali (defeated Mile End) was bawling in Bangla down a mobile phone at a counting table. He was asked by a (female) officer to stop and he shouted that she ( emphasise she) had no right to tell him to stop doing anything and that she (emphasise she) should go away.I drew this to the attention of the returning officer and Shahid Ali then needed to be restrained from attacking me.

 

Tower Hamlets has interesting rules on the media at counts. Mainstream journalists can only be on the counting floor if they are escorted by a member of the town hall staff at all times.

 

The special media, that supports the supreme ruler, is excluded from this, so, for example everywhere I went I was stalked by a weird old trot who kept taking flash photographs of me in my face and then grinning. He declined to say what organ he reported for.

 

He was not afraid of expressing his views as he shouted the short version of "see you next Tuesday", during one of the declarations.

 

Despite everything we had been told, the count was a shocker. There was a a 21% discrepancy in the votes in Island Gardens between the first two counts.

 

Issues regarding our count process that I raised as far back as 2009 were ignored and there was no change at all; despite the fine words of the electoral commission.

 

I will be writing to them on Tuesday, with more details and will make my letter public.

 

Read more: http://vote-2012.pro...7#ixzz32p1qQKrF

 

This is an interesting page - not sure his motives but the whole issue looks dodgy. http://www.conservat...-on-and-on.html

 

 

 

 

Is it any wonder why UKIP had a good showing.

 

Dave

 

 

I just heard on the news there is to be an investigation into vote rigging and intimidation in Tower Hamlets. There is significant correlation between what you cite in your post Dave and other reports on what happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-27585346

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-watchdog-to-probe-tower-hamlets-count-delays-as-last-results-finally-announced-9442262.html

 

 

[Archiesgrandad]

I regard myself as just an ordinary sort of bloke, not especially gifted or talented, or privileged, and whilst I do try to be aware of the world around me , I know that there is a lot that I don't understand. I think that in so many cases I either can't understand or don't have access to the information and understandings that might enable me to make the sort of decisions that have to be made by our rulers, so, whilst I can't categorically tell you what we should do, I can tell you what I'd like us to do. The clever people must then explain the reasons why we can't do it, and what are the alternatives, and as the events of the past few days have shown, they will not get away with telling us to trust them as they know best any longer.

So, whist I can't tell you whether or not immigration, from the EU or anywhere else, is beneficial to our country or even unavoidable, I can tell you that those immigrants coming to our country should be aware that we are nominally a Christian country, and that we have no wish for that to change. They should realise that they should be prepared to communicate with every aspect of our system in English and that it is unfair to expect us to provide translators at public expense, I have recently bought a house in France with the intention of retiring there, I do not expect them to learn English to facilitate that. ( anyone who has heard a Brummy speaking schoolboy French could probably make the case for all Frenchmen to learn English without delay.)

I don't want my supermarket to sell only Hal Al meat, without labelling it as such, because we don't make a fuss, and just as I wouldn't want draconian punishment imposed on people who might be offensive about God or Jesus, I don't want to be afraid to voice my opinions about Islam or any other faith.

It seems to me that these are in fact the sort of things that make ordinary people like us vote for Ukip et al. They have less than 12 months to convince us that they "get it", otherwise we will once again show our displeasure.

AGD

[antony1969]

Archiesgrandad - 2014-05-28 1:20 PM

 

I regard myself as just an ordinary sort of bloke, not especially gifted or talented, or privileged, and whilst I do try to be aware of the world around me , I know that there is a lot that I don't understand. I think that in so many cases I either can't understand or don't have access to the information and understandings that might enable me to make the sort of decisions that have to be made by our rulers, so, whilst I can't categorically tell you what we should do, I can tell you what I'd like us to do. The clever people must then explain the reasons why we can't do it, and what are the alternatives, and as the events of the past few days have shown, they will not get away with telling us to trust them as they know best any longer.

So, whist I can't tell you whether or not immigration, from the EU or anywhere else, is beneficial to our country or even unavoidable, I can tell you that those immigrants coming to our country should be aware that we are nominally a Christian country, and that we have no wish for that to change. They should realise that they should be prepared to communicate with every aspect of our system in English and that it is unfair to expect us to provide translators at public expense, I have recently bought a house in France with the intention of retiring there, I do not expect them to learn English to facilitate that. ( anyone who has heard a Brummy speaking schoolboy French could probably make the case for all Frenchmen to learn English without delay.)

I don't want my supermarket to sell only Hal Al meat, without labelling it as such, because we don't make a fuss, and just as I wouldn't want draconian punishment imposed on people who might be offensive about God or Jesus, I don't want to be afraid to voice my opinions about Islam or any other faith.

It seems to me that these are in fact the sort of things that make ordinary people like us vote for Ukip et al. They have less than 12 months to convince us that they "get it", otherwise we will once again show our displeasure.

AGD

 

Voicing opinion about a faith that amongst other things openly spews it's hatred of Jews , Homosexuals and the vile way it treats females is not allowed on here and you leave yourself wide open for the usual name calling of bigot and the rest , please tread carefully ...The Forum Bigot

[Archiesgrandad]

I haven't voiced any opinion about any faith, I simply express a wish to enjoy free speech within our very reasonable laws on free speech, even bigots should be entitled to that.

AGD

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-05-27 4:44 PM

 

Symbol Owner - 2014-05-27 3:27 PM..................... He's a dimwitted racist."............

Colin.

But perhaps you forget, Colin - there are many, many, followers of that creed! :-)

 

 

I don't give a tinkers cuss if Farage has a Swastika tattooed on his backside..................He'll still get my vote at the next election ;-)................Coz I'm a floater :D...........and unlike the lemmings............its us who have the power to change things B-)............

 

No need for the lemmings to worry though............as its only a protest vote :->.......

[antony1969]

Archiesgrandad - 2014-05-28 4:27 PM

 

I haven't voiced any opinion about any faith, I simply express a wish to enjoy free speech within our very reasonable laws on free speech, even bigots should be entitled to that.

AGD

 

And so say all of us , free speech without the usual name calling that goes with it , it could happen one day

[Guest pelmetman]

bigal55 - 2014-05-27 6:56 PM

 

Symbol Owner - 2014-05-27 4:59 PM

 

bigal55 - 2014-05-27 4:32 PM

Colin, during the expenses scandal, Jack Straw, a long time minister, stated "I'm not very good with paperwork" when questioned about his expenses. They made him a lord.

 

Oh, no they didn't, Alan, when I looked at the recent House of Commons debate in which the current Home Secretary, Theresa May was making a statement concerning the undercover police officers who spied on the Lawrence family, there was Jack Straw, M.P., the member for Blackburn recalling his own experiences wuth police surveillance when (as I remember well) he was President of the National Union of Students he's still a backbencher -- I think.

 

Colin.

Sorry got the lord bit wrong, but to me thats even worse, we have someone who admits he,s no good with paperwork making decisions on lives. try telling H.M.RC. that you are no good with paperwork,. my point is that you said farage is a buffoon with his if buts and maybes, agreed, straw was on the front bench from 1987-2010 who is the buffoon the one who misses the apostraphe or the one who doesn,t know about paperwork or the numpties who keep voting for the people who milked the system that they created.

 

If Farage is a buffoon............He's a wealthy buffoon............although, as we know from this forum wealth and wisdom are not always natural bed fellows :D..............

 

Fortunately I'm not a buffoon....... just a thrifty idiot............but I'm an idiot with a vote >:-).............

[nowtelse2do]

CliveH - 2014-05-28 8:14 AM

 

 

I just heard on the news there is to be an investigation into vote rigging and intimidation in Tower Hamlets. There is significant correlation between what you cite in your post Dave and other reports on what happened.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-27585346

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-watchdog-to-probe-tower-hamlets-count-delays-as-last-results-finally-announced-9442262.html

 

 

I saw the first link Clive but not the second one. TH should be made to have a fresh election IMO.

 

 

And what about this bit of nice language....

 

 

 

 

On Thursday there were plenty of police at polling stations – yet they were passive. It was a bit like the police in London in August 2011 during the earlier stages of the riots – standing and observing while the rioting and looting took place. Instead of just one teller there would be a dozen or more supporters of Mr Rahman at the entrance and inside a Polling Station.

 

Any Bengali voter who turned up would be surrounded in a intimidating manner and spoken to – with some pretty robust advice about the consequences of voting for the Infidel Biggs. Why did the police not intervene to enforce electoral law?

 

 

The Infidel Biggs was the labour candidate John Biggs.

 

Dave

[CliveH]

If these reports are true and this is what actually happened then i would certainly say this election needs to be re-run.

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

nowtelse2do - 2014-05-28 9:13 PM

 

The Infidel Biggs was the labour candidate John Biggs.

 

 

Would that not be called racism?.....................Silly me *-)................they're ethnic minorities so can't possibly be racist :-|.............

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2014-05-27 11:45 PM Brian - the elected Prime Minister of Greece promised the Greek people a Referendum on accepting the bailout that the EU offered.

 

But the Greek Prime Minister was then forced to withdraw the referendum on the bailout that he had promised the Greek people and indeed been elected on as part of his parties manifesto. His coalition agreed that the referendum should take place..................... ..................

 

I'll not trade extended quotes, too long! However, on the resignation of Papandreou, with apologies, a Wiki link: http://tinyurl.com/yw7kb, and on the Greek debt crisis, with further apologies, another, here: http://tinyurl.com/kvoz35j

 

Both demonstrate the complexity of what was going on at the time. I think some of that complexity is overlooked in your comments, particularly with regard to the role of the EU Commission in the cancellation of that referendum. Bit hard on the poor chap, but neither the Greek electorate, not any of the foreign backers of the bail out package had any confidence in him. Only a majority of the elected members if the Greek parliament did which, given the strength of public opinion against, was (appropriately) a bit Phyrric! :-) I also think the issue regarding acceptance of the bail-out was continuing membership of the Euro, not the EU, and the potentially catastrophic consequences of losing the bail-out package and leaving the Euro.

 

So far as I can see, Greece was not being threatened with expulsion from the EU, indeed, I am unaware if there is such a provision in any of the EU treaties, but surely if there is, it cannot be based upon leaving the Euro? Other member states have not taken up the Euro. Are you sure that is correct?

 

................................"The Commission's duty is to ensure it is implemented by dealing with the day-to-day running of the Union and taking others to Court if they fail to comply."

 

So a country can not agree with a law as agreed by the Council and the Parliament - but the unelected EU Commission has the power to enforce that law on that country. That is surely the issue.

 

But how is that undemocratic? Members of the Parliament and Council are, themselves, all democratically elected. The former directly, the latter indirectly through the democratic processes in their respective states. They make the policy, and all states are involved in that process. Domestic laws are passed in all member states through similar measures. If one doesn't like a particular law, one has no right to ignore it, and if one does some authority will exact whatever penalty the law requires. So with the member states of the EU and EU laws. Once they have agreed a law, they are all subject to it. That, in itself, is democratic. If they are caught cheating, it is the duty of the Commission to take on the role of the policeman, and refer the offender to the European Court, where a panel of judges will hear the case. That seems to me both democratic and sensible.

 

The issue is not - nor it ever has been for me - the fiscal ineptitude of EU member states. The fact that some countries are badly run is a fact of life. I am old enough to remember the IMF bailing the UK out thanks to yet another fiscal disaster that was due to Labour mismanagement (it does seem to be a bit of a recurring habit for them) - No, the issue is as I have already said:-

 

a) how did the EU fiddle the rules to allow the likes of Greece to become part of the Eurozone

 

and

 

b) once in the Eurozone, why oh why did no one see the debacle that was Greece fiscal ineptitude?

 

and

 

c) why was an elected government forced out of office because they wanted to ask the people if they wanted to remain part of the Eurozone?

 

It is my belief that the non-elected, but appointed Commissioners had the power to do what they did to Greece. The irony of such action to the country that gave us democracy is considerable.

 

On a) my understanding is that Greece fiddled the rules via some "creative accounting" with the aid of Goldman Sachs.

 

On b) good question!

 

On c) I simply think you are wrong, and that no such thing happened.

 

I feel it is somewhat of an irrelevance to keep asking exactly how the machinations of the EU allowed such an event to happen - the issue is that those of us who were under the happy illusion that in things like elected governments, we still had an individual say - via our vote!

 

What happened in Greece shattered that belief and I firmly believe that many across Europe feel the same way. This belief on my part is down to dealing with many financial institutions that are both EU and worldwide companies. And I can assure you that many senior people had - and still do have - deep misgivings about the powers that the EU suddenly invoked.

 

We are now seeing the outcome of that disquiet.

 

You try to make out that the issue is simply one of "rising fruitcakes" - but my belief is that people saw what happened and said - given the choice I will vote against this - and they did.

 

The social unrest in Greece and other PIIGS is considerable. The effects on individuals is profound. Young people realising they may never have a job unless they leave their country of birth.

 

What has been happening in Greece is not reported in MSM here in the UK - we get it in the financial press but I am staggered that nobody otherwise bothers with what is happening.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/12/us-greece-strike-idUSBREA2B0HZ20140312

 

Unemployment is Greece is still over 25%. Amongst the under 30's it is even higher. This is causing huge social problems - and Greece is not alone.

 

The barter economy/black economy is stronger than the official economy.

 

Greece is still a basket case, others not much better.

 

The ill will of the populations of the PIIGS is such that their economies could take more than one generation to fully recover.

 

There is a short term patch been put on the infected wound that is the Euro - if it recovers then the cost of that recovery will be enormous. If history repeats itself and we have another fiscal crisis then we could be looking at a whole new ball game.

 

Maybe, but that is all a bit outwith the results of the European elections. Fundamentally (and crudely), Greece is a basket case because of its corrupt politics, in which over generations successive governments (usually of parties headed by the same few families) have bought votes through by public sector jobs that had no purpose. To pay for these, they raised taxes, which no-one paid, and no one was pursued by those governments to pay. Thus the state borrowed to cover the differences and, with the aid of Goldman, then hid the true scale of its debts to gain access to the Euro and the financial advantages that brought. Having done so, it continued as before until the debt crisis struck. As Warren Buffet said, "When the economic tide goes out, you can see who's swimming naked." It went out. The Greek government had been skinny dipping. The Greeks elected all those corrupt governments, and acquiesced, in various ways in their corruption. They do not equate to the other states affected, as reference to the PIIGS suggests. They all made different mistakes in different ways, for different reasons. Sections of all of their populations are still suffering to differing degrees, while other (smaller) sections of the populations are virtually unaffected. It has been an extremely hard lesson for all those affected to learn, and I'm sure it will take more than a generation for all to recover. The UK came close, IMO, and I think it will probably take near a generation here for all our damage to be repaired, so the timescale is unsurprising.

 

But, be all that as it may, I don't think the fundamental problem for the EU is a failure of democracy, it is IMO primarily a failure to return to economic growth that benefits the man in the street. That is why the issues driving rejection of the EU by so many, in so many states, are so similar. Immigration, lack of job prospects, and a desire to shrink back within their national borders.

 

I agree that much of that has to do with the way the Euro was implemented, and who was allowed to join. But, those decisions were, in the same way as others, taken by the democratically elected politicians, mot by an unelected Commission. So we turn full circle, do we not? :-)

[Guest pelmetman]

I agree Brian the EU is a democracy of sorts......... unfortunately its so skewed by those at the top table, ie Germany who hold the key to the magic wallet of bailouts *-).................... as you say...

 

" I don't think the fundamental problem for the EU is a failure of democracy, it is IMO primarily a failure to return to economic growth that benefits the man in the street. That is why the issues driving rejection of the EU by so many, in so many states, are so similar. Immigration, lack of job prospects, and a desire to shrink back within their national borders."

 

So by virtue of the fact that the EU is not prepared to do anything about their open door policy........those members of the lower orders, who see their jobs being given to Eastern Europeans because they'll work cheaper :-| .....................have flocked to UKIP...............and the lower orders outnumber the chattering classes :D.......

 

Next week could see the first UKIP MP ;-)................that'll set the Westminster chickens clucking (lol).........

 

Although I understand you cant move in Newark without tripping over a conservative minister, MP or PM 8-).......

[Brian Kirby]

Quite, Dave, but that is democracy at work. When I was at school I struggled with the concepts (among others! :-)) of "lowest common denominator" and "highest common factor". What I think one gets with our form of democracy (one man, one vote, few parties) I think tends to the lowest common denominator, whereas what I think we need is the highest common factor. The problem is that no-one yet seems to have come up with a politically acceptable route to the highest common factor, so what we end up with is usually fruitcake - of one form or another. :-)