Symbol Owner Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Morning folks, this is the most moving and sensible piece of writing I've read in a long while - my late mother often regaled me with similar accounts of the struggle that working people had to cope with illness before the advent of the NHS,( she had a sister who died young in a poorhouse hospital) and, like Harry, I was brought into this world (shortly) before the NHS arrived. Are we all so blind and uncaring that we cannot see what this dreadful Coalition Bill ( which, incidentally,UKIP would support and extend) is going to do to the people of this country? I despair sometimes, I really do. My daughter has the right idea, she has just become an Australian citizen! Any way, enough from me, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest Harry Leslie Smith's words of wisdom, prophesy and caution, here:- http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/04/coalition-attacks-nhs-return-britain-age-workhouse#start-of-comments Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-06-05 10:33 AM Morning folks, this is the most moving and sensible piece of writing I've read in a long while - my late mother often regaled me with similar accounts of the struggle that working people had to cope with illness before the advent of the NHS,( she had a sister who died young in a poorhouse hospital) and, like Harry, I was brought into this world (shortly) before the NHS arrived. Are we all so blind and uncaring that we cannot see what this dreadful Coalition Bill ( which, incidentally,UKIP would support and extend) is going to do to the people of this country? I despair sometimes, I really do. My daughter has the right idea, she has just become an Australian citizen! Any way, enough from me, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest Harry Leslie Smith's words of wisdom, prophesy and caution, here:- http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/04/coalition-attacks-nhs-return-britain-age-workhouse#start-of-comments Colin. Strangely Colin............I can find no corroboration for Mr Smiths assertions? :-S " Ukip has even proposed that A&E patients should have the right to buy their way to the front of the queue, while in Merseyside a private for-profit cancer clinic has set up shop under the NHS umbrella. Where will all of this end? What will be given the greatest priority in a new health care system that sends every service, from blood work to chemotherapy, out to the lowest bid tender?" Surely the Guardian would not indulge in scaremongering? ;-)................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 The simple fact of the matter is if you vote Conservative or for the brain dead UKIP you are voting to privatise the NHS. I listened to Harry on radio 4 yesterday very moving. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Just to add this is apparently what UKIP really stand for..................As its copied from their website ;-)........ "What We Stand For.............. These are anxious and troubled times. As crisis follows crisis, our politicians do nothing in the face of dangers rearing up all around us. Taxes and Government debt rise. Energy and transport costs soar. Unemployment is too high. The NHS and state education strain under a population increase of 4 million since 2001. Another wave of uncontrolled immigration comes from the EU (this time Bulgaria and Romania). Yet the political class tells us the EU is good for the UK. A gulf has opened between the ruling elite and the public. Because they must all follow Brussels diktats, each of the establishment main parties is now so similar voters have no real choice. The EU controls Immigration, Business and Employment, Financial Services, Fishing, Farming, Energy and Trade. It seeks now to control Law and Order, Foreign Affairs and Tax. Only outside the EU can we start to solve the problems our country faces. Return Power to the UK • A vote for UKIP is a vote to leave the EU and recover power over our national life. • Free trade, but not political union, with our European neighbours. We are the EU’s largest export market: they depend on us for jobs - not the other way around. • Binding local and national referenda, at the public’s request, on major issues. Protect Our Borders • Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU. • Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it. • A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits. • Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK. Rebuild Prosperity • Save £55m a day in membership fees by leaving the EU and give British workers first crack at the 800,000 jobs we currently advertise to EU workers. • No tax on the minimum wage. • Enrol unemployed welfare claimants onto community schemes or retraining workfare programmes. • Scrap HS2, all green taxes and wind turbine subsidies. • Develop shale gas to reduce energy bills and free us from dependence on foreign oil and gas - place the tax revenues into a British Sovereign Wealth Fund. • UKIP will abolish inheritance tax. Inheritance tax brings in under £4bn - less than a third of what we spend on foreign aid. The super-rich avoid it, while modest property owners get caught by it. It hits people during a time of grief and UKIP will budget in its 2015 spending plans to completely abolish this unfair death tax. • Make cuts to foreign aid that are real and rigorous. Safeguard Against Crime • No cuts to front line policing. • Make sentences mean what they say. • No votes for prisoners - that’s what losing your liberty means. • Prevent foreign criminals entering the UK - by re-introducing border controls that the EU forced us to abandon. • Scrap the European Arrest Warrant, which sends British citizens to foreign jails without evidence, just to answer questions - replace it with a proper extradition system. • Remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. Care And Support For All • Open GP surgeries in the evening, for full-time workers, where there is demand. • Locally-elected County Health Boards to inspect hospitals - to avoid another Stafford Hospital crisis. • Prioritise social housing for people whose parents and grandparents were born locally. • Allow the creation of new grammar schools. • Make welfare a safety net for the needy, not a bed for the lazy. Benefits only available to those who have lived here for over 5 years. Free Speech and Democracy • No to Political Correctness - it stifles free speech. • The law of the land must apply to us all. We oppose any other system of law. • Teach children positive messages and pride in their country. We want to unite through better integration. UKIP is a patriotic party that believes in putting Britain first. Only UKIP will return self-government to the British people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Here's some corroboration -- http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/liverpool-news/1219166-first-private-dedicated-cancer-clinic-opens-in-merseyside.html That seems pretty clear to me! And:- http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/07/ukip-wants-to-charge-nhs-patients-to-skip-waiting-times/ That is more speculative, but based on things that have been said by UKIP spokespeople. I think, Dave, that the 'Grauniad is only acting as a publisher for Mr. Smith's views, which come from a recent book of his memories - nowhere does it say that these opinions are endorsed by them -- they did support the Lib-dems (who support this dreadful Bill) in 2010 after all! Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 johnnerontheroad - 2014-06-05 12:29 PM The simple fact of the matter is if you vote Conservative or for the brain dead UKIP you are voting to privatise the NHS. I listened to Harry on radio 4 yesterday very moving. Dave Couldn't agree more -- Harry was moving wasn't he -- but -- why the heck did they pair him with Baroness Trumpington? :-S Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-06-05 12:36 PM johnnerontheroad - 2014-06-05 12:29 PM The simple fact of the matter is if you vote Conservative or for the brain dead UKIP you are voting to privatise the NHS. I listened to Harry on radio 4 yesterday very moving. Dave Couldn't agree more -- Harry was moving wasn't he -- but -- why the heck did they pair him with Baroness Trumpington? :-S Colin. To give the ruling class point of view we have to remember our place *-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-06-05 12:32 PM That is more speculative, but based on things that have been said by UKIP spokespeople. I think, Dave, that the 'Grauniad is only acting as a publisher for Mr. Smith's views, which come from a recent book of his memories - nowhere does it say that these opinions are endorsed by them -- they did support the Lib-dems (who support this dreadful Bill) in 2010 after all! Colin. Unless it appears in UKIPS manifesto then its just irrelevant spin ;-) ................ Call me old fashioned, but I tend to vote on whats actually in a manifesto, not what some lefty spin merchant would have me believe:D.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-06-05 12:53 PM Unless it appears in UKIPS manifesto then its just irrelevant spin ;-) ................ Call me old fashioned, but I tend to vote on whats actually in a manifesto, not what some lefty spin merchant would have me believe:D.................. But,but,BUT.....................Dave, UKIP DOESN'T have a bl**dy manifesto! (And the one it did have in 2010) supported privatisation of the NHS! So, how do we assess their intentions at this point in time? Here's extracts from an 'unspun' article direct from the 'horses' mouth' We can solve the A&E crisis…by halving waiting times - written by Mr. Jonathan Stanley MBChB, MRCS(Eng), PG Cert. Health Economics and Management, Member of UKIP health forum We should accept that if a triaging clinician feels we don’t need treating within two hours required for standard cases then we be either willing to pay or willing to wait longer so cases most deserving are treated best. People should pay a higher charge if they haven’t registered with a GP as being directed back to primary care avoids unnecessary A&E visits. Recent arrivals are overrepresented in this group and it is also only fair they pay for health insurance until they are paying both National Insurance and Income Tax. Regardless of treatment cost, the prescription charge exempts those most in need and unable to pay for medicines. It raises money to pay for treatments that Scotland and Wales now struggle to afford and prevents overuse of an otherwise free system. A similar flat fee would allow an honest choice between waiting more than four hours, and paying. The same exceptions as for the prescription charge could apply unless the patient was drunk and disorderly or incapable. It is UKIP policy that the decision to charge for prescriptions is taken at a community level, not a national one. In Britain we can expect better and faster service for Fido from our vet than we can for our parents and children from our local A&E. If minor injury units were part funded by the flat fee a much better quality of service and care could be provided, while keeping our health service away from huge multinationals so favoured by big government. They would relieve NHSDirect and walk in centres that often act as feeders to A&Es rather than replacing them. If cooperatives run pharmacies and GP collaboratives provide cover out of hours then professional owned mutuals can run minor injuries units. The introduction of NHS111 further complicates matters and should be scrapped as a non starter. I have never seen anything introduced so shambolically into the NHS and that’s saying something! In summary UKIP would: • Scrap NHS 111 – it is a complete shambles • Support profession led approaches in primary care that reduce admissions • Keep A&E free of charge for those triaged as needing treatment within two hours • Focus on two hour targets for standard cases: cases that wait four hours rather than two suffer worse than those that should wait four and wait more. • Non urgent cases to be seen only when no standard and urgent cases are waiting • Allow mutual providers, including GPs, to charge a flat fee to see non-emergency cases • Ensure people can pay upfront fees off over a period of time when registered with a GP • Apply the same clinical exemptions to the flat fee as for prescription charges in England • The flat fee will only be discounted for those registered with a local GP • The flat fee will not be discounted for those who are drunk and either disorderly or incapable • Insist immigrants to the UK are not cleared for entry without evidence of valid health insurance. Nigel Farage has'tweeted' his agreement with this diatribe -- I think that we should all be very very worried. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 This 'sums it up' succinctly Dave! http://www.gmbnorthwest.com/GMB-Trade-Union/GMB/Trade-Union/Union/news/ukips-latest-nhs-policy-charging-skip-ae-waiting-times Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-06-05 2:39 PM pelmetman - 2014-06-05 12:53 PM Unless it appears in UKIPS manifesto then its just irrelevant spin ;-) ................ Call me old fashioned, but I tend to vote on whats actually in a manifesto, not what some lefty spin merchant would have me believe:D.................. But,but,BUT.....................Dave, UKIP DOESN'T have a bl**dy manifesto! (And the one it did have in 2010) supported privatisation of the NHS! Has Farage not already said the 2010 manifesto was a load of rubbish and its been torn up? From the Guardian 3 days ago ;-) "Farage has previously disowned Ukip's 2010 manifesto, written during a hiatus in his leadership, saying it was hundreds of pages of rubbish that he had not even read." So if UKIP as you say has yet to produce a manifesto................how can you slag him off for policies that are not in it? :-S............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-06-05 2:43 PM This 'sums it up' succinctly Dave! http://www.gmbnorthwest.com/GMB-Trade-Union/GMB/Trade-Union/Union/news/ukips-latest-nhs-policy-charging-skip-ae-waiting-times Colin. I have to say charging drunks for using A&E would be a vote winner for me :D...............I also think that people who fail to turn up for GP appointments without a valid excuse should be charged............as we noticed this week a sign on the wall of our surgery in Skeg, saying over 600 appointments had been missed this year already 8-)............ I suspect a £20 fine would soon lower that number and make it easier for people to make appointments;-)............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-06-05 3:10 PM I also think that people who fail to turn up for GP appointments without a valid excuse should be charged. They might be ill 8-) :-D Dr Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 johnnerontheroad - 2014-06-05 12:29 PM "or for the brain dead UKIP" Dave Is that a medical fact or just a bigoted opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 donna miller - 2014-06-05 5:34 PM johnnerontheroad - 2014-06-05 12:29 PM "or for the brain dead UKIP" Dave Is that a medical fact or just a bigoted opinion? It's neither Donna - but it is a phrase used by barrack room lawyers and their ilk to intolerantly describe people with whom they disagree when they are unable to give a plausible counter argument of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 donna miller - 2014-06-05 5:34 PMjohnnerontheroad - 2014-06-05 12:29 PM"or for the brain dead UKIP" DaveIs that a medical fact or just a bigoted opinion? I would say it is a cheap comment used by those who can not accept that there is 'possibly' a challenge to the 'entrenched' politicos and are afraid to accept there 'might' be another option. As I have said before on other threads that whilst UKIP is not yet ready to take on the mantle of Government 'it does' bring into the mainstream of political concern topics which the other three parties (four if you include the Greens) have ignored or considered too PC to address and for that we should be grateful. Had it not been for UKIP we would still be bigots if we dared to voice concern over the levels of immigration and all it's inherent problems................so thank you UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-06-05 12:30 PM Just to add this is apparently what UKIP really stand for..................As its copied from their website ;-)........ "What We Stand For.............. These are anxious and troubled times. As crisis follows crisis, our politicians do nothing in the face of dangers rearing up all around us. Taxes and Government debt rise. Energy and transport costs soar. Unemployment is too high. The NHS and state education strain under a population increase of 4 million since 2001. Another wave of uncontrolled immigration comes from the EU (this time Bulgaria and Romania). Yet the political class tells us the EU is good for the UK. A gulf has opened between the ruling elite and the public. Because they must all follow Brussels diktats, each of the establishment main parties is now so similar voters have no real choice. The EU controls Immigration, Business and Employment, Financial Services, Fishing, Farming, Energy and Trade. It seeks now to control Law and Order, Foreign Affairs and Tax. Only outside the EU can we start to solve the problems our country faces. Return Power to the UK • A vote for UKIP is a vote to leave the EU and recover power over our national life. • Free trade, but not political union, with our European neighbours. We are the EU’s largest export market: they depend on us for jobs - not the other way around. • Binding local and national referenda, at the public’s request, on major issues. Protect Our Borders • Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU. • Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it. • A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits. • Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK. Rebuild Prosperity • Save £55m a day in membership fees by leaving the EU and give British workers first crack at the 800,000 jobs we currently advertise to EU workers. • No tax on the minimum wage. • Enrol unemployed welfare claimants onto community schemes or retraining workfare programmes. • Scrap HS2, all green taxes and wind turbine subsidies. • Develop shale gas to reduce energy bills and free us from dependence on foreign oil and gas - place the tax revenues into a British Sovereign Wealth Fund. • UKIP will abolish inheritance tax. Inheritance tax brings in under £4bn - less than a third of what we spend on foreign aid. The super-rich avoid it, while modest property owners get caught by it. It hits people during a time of grief and UKIP will budget in its 2015 spending plans to completely abolish this unfair death tax. • Make cuts to foreign aid that are real and rigorous. Safeguard Against Crime • No cuts to front line policing. • Make sentences mean what they say. • No votes for prisoners - that’s what losing your liberty means. • Prevent foreign criminals entering the UK - by re-introducing border controls that the EU forced us to abandon. • Scrap the European Arrest Warrant, which sends British citizens to foreign jails without evidence, just to answer questions - replace it with a proper extradition system. • Remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. Care And Support For All • Open GP surgeries in the evening, for full-time workers, where there is demand. • Locally-elected County Health Boards to inspect hospitals - to avoid another Stafford Hospital crisis. • Prioritise social housing for people whose parents and grandparents were born locally. • Allow the creation of new grammar schools. • Make welfare a safety net for the needy, not a bed for the lazy. Benefits only available to those who have lived here for over 5 years. Free Speech and Democracy • No to Political Correctness - it stifles free speech. • The law of the land must apply to us all. We oppose any other system of law. • Teach children positive messages and pride in their country. We want to unite through better integration. UKIP is a patriotic party that believes in putting Britain first. Only UKIP will return self-government to the British people." Still in total denial I see Dave. Is there no hope for you?. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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