Battery replacement conundrum

[Alanb]

Hi,

 

I am new to this forum, but I have been a motorhome user for over 20 years and I am a long time subscriber to MMM.

 

My current motorhome is a 2006 IH Tio R conversion on a Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD.

 

We have deeply discharged the leisure batteries on a few occsions, and with this and their age in mind I am considering replacement.

 

The existing batteries are two FLA "Green Power hi-fase"of 85Ah claimed capacity. I assume that these are of PbSb/PbSb construction. Polarity is LHS +, RHS -, with terminals towards you.

 

The batteries are mounted under the front seats and measure 250L x 175W x 210H.

 

The maximum battery size is 302L x 175W x 225H, but may manage a few mm more in height if the batteries are moved slightly.

 

Charging is from the Valeo 90A alternator, with a measured maximum of 14.2 volts output., and from the cbe 16A charger which gives 13.8/14.3 volts for GEL batteries and 13.5/14.1 volts when selected to FLA.

 

The alternator / vehicle battery, and charger are connected to the leisure batteries via the cbe distribution board which functions as split charge and fridge relays. When on EHU the vehicle battery is maintained via the cbe board.

 

Most available leisure batteries are of PbCa/PbCa plate construction.

 

I am not yet convinced that the 14.2V from the alternator is sufficient to recover calcium leisure batteries from a deep discharge., particularly as the need for14.4 volts or more a often quoted.

 

I considered the CTEK DC250S battery to battery charger, but ths does not seem to be compatible with the cbe distribution board.

 

As to vehicle use with overnight stops without EHU, while touring in true motorhome style I do not see any problem. Recently however we have tended to stay longer on a favourite pitch at a particular site. EHU at that pitch is only possible with a long extension cable. We have been known to stay on site for two days or more - hence deep discharge. We really should use the extension cable!

 

My current thinking is to use hybrid PbSb/PbCa batteries, such Exide ER350, or Banner 95601. The reversed terminal polarity of the Banner unit could be accommodated, but it's more work and perhaps cable.

 

I would welcome any relavant experience, comments, or suggestions.

 

[Tracker]

Hi Alan and welcome to the madhouse!

 

You don't say whether you camp in dismal (weather wise!) UK or bright Europe but have you considered substantial solar panels with appropriate regulator?

 

Solar can also be set to charge the vehicle battery via a split charge relay which has the benefit of making sure the starter battery does not go flat when the van is not in use.

 

Sorry but I don't know enough about battery types to comment but if you have solar panels keeping them topped up you might not need anything too fancy?

[colin]

We have a similar usage of vehicle, often touring and so the battery gets charged from engine but once or twice a year stay on a site for a week without moving and no EHU, our solution is a solar panel, this also means if the van is not used any length of time the battery is always fully charged, even in middle of winter.

[Alanb]

Thanks to both for the solar suggestion. I had considered this. Most of our camping is in Scotland which can be very wet.

 

However we had battery trouble on a rented van in NZ last march. Vehicle had a solar panel but the battery would not support the compessor fridge (42W) for mor than about 5 hours, for the few times when we were not on EHU over there. (In NZ it is called a "Power Site". I am tempted to wonder if problem was previously deeply discharged calcium batteries not being recovered by the on board charging.

 

The solar panels used did interest me. They were of the flexible variety, and seemed to be stuck to the contours of the Transit roof. The only link that I can find for similar items was from the USA.

 

I forgot to add that "Tardis" stays on permanent EHU in it's garage when not in use, solar not needed there.

 

 

 

 

[Retread24800]

Alanb - 2014-08-06 10:30 PMThanks to both for the solar suggestion. I had considered this. Most of our camping is in Scotland which can be very wet.However we had battery trouble on a rented van in NZ last march. Vehicle had a solar panel but the battery would not support the compessor fridge (42W) for mor than about 5 hours, for the few times when we were not on EHU over there. (In NZ it is called a "Power Site". I am tempted to wonder if problem was previously deeply discharged calcium batteries not being recovered by the on board charging.The solar panels used did interest me. They were of the flexible variety, and seemed to be stuck to the contours of the Transit roof. The only link that I can find for similar items was from the USA.I forgot to add that "Tardis" stays on permanent EHU in it's garage when not in use, solar not needed there.

You might try Roadpro for all things electrical including flexible Solar panel kits. and helpful advice on charging and battery types.

[Derek Uzzell]

If a genuine deep-discharge design-capability is a priority, then the Banner “Energy Bull” 95601 battery should be the better (though more expensive) choice, rather than the Exide ER350 battery that is dual-purpose. OK, you might have to alter the cabling to accommodate the Banner batteries’ different terminal position, but that’s bad luck.

 

Rapido currently combines a CBE-made system similar to yours (16A-charger, etc.) with a 100Ah "Energy Bull” battery as standard factory-fit, with a 2nd 100Ah battery as an option, so a pair of 80Ah Banners should present no problems for you. (in any case, you’ve been running a pair of ‘wet acid’ 85Ah batteries up till now via the CBE system.)

 

If you REALLY want to get down-and-dirty regarding leisure-batteries technicalities and which might be ‘best', then I wish you well.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/which-leisure-battery-expert-advise-required/35604/

 

I suggest you just fit a pair of 95601s when your present batteries are to be replaced. Deciding whether or not to take the solar-panel route at some stage shouldn’t affect the battery-replacement question.

[StuartO]

It depends a lot on how long you plan to keep this van. The best batteries or pefromance are more expensive but they last longer as well as perform better.

 

If the batteries are inside the vehicle you should certainly go for sealed batteries rather than liquid ones which will gas off (and need topping up).

 

My MH came new with a pair of Exide G80 gel batteries and they are still performing well at over eight years old. I'm likely to have to replace them eventually so I have been researching and shopping around. Direct replacements cost nearly £200 each.

 

One source recommends Bosch S5 batteries, which are starter batteries but with new technology which allows them to stand deeper discharges. They are liquid but sealed.

 

As I said it will boil down to how long you might keep this van. Your pattern of use suggests gel batteries and your MH charger can service them, but will you keep it long enough to justify the extra cost?

[Hughmer]

StuartO - 2014-08-07 10:16 AM

One source recommends Bosch S5 batteries, which are starter batteries but with new technology which allows them to stand deeper discharges. They are liquid but sealed.

 

Could the source A&N? They have advised me to buy S5 batteries, and I'm endeavoring to find corroborations. Not much appears on my google searches (except suppliers & price lists)

 

Has anyone fitted/used Bosch S5 batteries or have any knowledge about them?

 

 

[StuartO]

Yes it is A&N. I think they sound like they know what they are talking about - but they come across as a bit over-committed to opinions, don't they?

 

In this case I have done quite a bit of other reading and if you want a cheaper but reasonably reliable leisure battery then Bosch S5s seem a reasonable choice. Clever new technology, fully sealed.

 

There are of course a baffling array of choices, including lots of so called leisure batteries which are just cheap starter batteries with a different label on - and a bigger price, because they are leisure batteries now!.

[rupert123]

Hughmer - 2014-08-07 4:45 PM

 

StuartO - 2014-08-07 10:16 AM

One source recommends Bosch S5 batteries, which are starter batteries but with new technology which allows them to stand deeper discharges. They are liquid but sealed.

 

Could the source A&N? They have advised me to buy S5 batteries, and I'm endeavoring to find corroborations. Not much appears on my google searches (except suppliers & price lists)

 

Has anyone fitted/used Bosch S5 batteries or have any knowledge about them?

 

Well not Bosch but I fitted the Varta Silver Dynamic, same battery cheaper price, and at the price they are a bargain and they work well. A & N know what they are talking about although my info did not come from them. Personally I will never pay the inflated price for a leisure battery again.

[Derek Uzzell]

Neither Bosch’s S5 nor Varta's Silver Dynamic batteries are designed for 'deep-cycle’ applications. This should be plain from the two companies’ advertising - both ranges are marketed as high-performance starter batteries.

 

I fitted a Varta Silver F18 battery to my Ford Transit-based Hobby, but as a starter-battery not as a leisure-battery. For the latter purpose I fitted a Banner AGM battery to replace the original Exide gel battery that died abruptly (common for gel batteries it seems) after 7 years of use.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-08-08 9:10 AM

 

Neither Bosch’s S5 nor Varta's Silver Dynamic batteries are designed for 'deep-cycle’ applications. This should be plain from the two companies’ advertising - both ranges are marketed as high-performance starter batteries.

 

I fitted a Varta Silver F18 battery to my Ford Transit-based Hobby, but as a starter-battery not as a leisure-battery. For the latter purpose I fitted a Banner AGM battery to replace the original Exide gel battery that died abruptly (common for gel batteries it seems) after 7 years of use.

Maybe not marketed as such but that is what they are designed for to cope with the stop/start technology in modern cars. These companies market much more expensive products as leisure batteries so why would they advertise the fact they are pretty much the same these days. However no wish to argue about this and if people wish to pay over the odds prices for a leisure battery fine by me. From memory my Varta Silver Dynamic is rated at 110kwh and was £85 with free delivery, it performs well and I have no doubt it will continue to do so. The maximum time I have spent without moving and off hook up with it is three nights and it showed no sign of going 'flat'. As I have no other top up, solar panels etc and a diesel heater which takes a fair bit of power this is good enough for me, in fact a designated leisure battery will perform no better and will cost twice as much. Forgot to mention they also carry a five year warranty

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2014-08-08 10:29 AM

 

Maybe not marketed as such but that is what they are designed for to cope with the stop/start technology in modern cars...

 

I don’t know where you have gained this idea from, but it’s wrong.

 

There are two types of battery commonly fitted to vehicles with Stop/Start systems. These are EFB (Enhanced Flooded Battery) or AGM (Absorbent Gas Mat).

 

http://www.mynrma.com.au/roadside-assistance/batteries/stop-start-vehicles-battery-technology.htm

 

Varta markets both types

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/technology/tech-start-stop

 

and also batteries designed for ‘leisure’ applications

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure/

 

While it’s quite likely that your Varta Silver Dynamic battey will do what you want it to, it’s nevertheless the case that the Silver Dynamic range of batteries is not marketed for Stop/Start nor deep-cycle applications. What you bought is a starter-battery, as are the batteries in the Bosch S5 range StuartO mentions.

 

I suspect you may be confusing the standard Silver Dynamic range with the Silver Dynamic AGM range (that is aimed at Stop/Start vehicles)

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/automotive/silver-dynamic/

 

and it’s near certain that you won’t have bought a 110Ah AGM version for £85.

 

 

[Alanb]

Thanks for your concise summing up, and the link to previous discussion. I have been checking out what is required to accommodate the slightly longer batteries under the seats, and possibly the different polarity of the Banner battery.

 

I will have to relocate the vent pipe for the battery under the passenger seat. Subject to further checks it exits above the fuel tank. I would not want to drill into the tank!!! However I may move the vent and put a longer negative lead on the RH battery. (The other leads can be re-routed to reach.) I will then be able to fit either polarity and accomodate the extra length at short notice.

 

As you suggest solar panels will be considered separately. I am still looking into the flexible variety.

 

Alan

[Alanb]

I have not ruled out GEL or AGM batteries, but the higher cost, and smaller reserve capacity weigh against them.

 

The vehicle is 8 years old and under used due to time spent elsewhere. Our previous Pilote R390 lasted 15 years, and wes still in vgc when we downsized. So perhaps the Banner FLA which can be topped up.

 

 

[colin]

Alanb - 2014-08-09 6:20 PM

 

As you suggest solar panels will be considered separately. I am still looking into the flexible variety.

 

Alan

 

On our old T25 had semi flexible panel, it had a very low profile, so giving much less wind resistance than the framed ones.

[rupert123]

Alanb - 2014-08-09 7:11 PM

 

I have not ruled out GEL or AGM batteries, but the higher cost, and smaller reserve capacity weigh against them.

 

The vehicle is 8 years old and under used due to time spent elsewhere. Our previous Pilote R390 lasted 15 years, and wes still in vgc when we downsized. So perhaps the Banner FLA which can be topped up.

 

You need to rule out AGM unless your charging system is compatible, doubtful on an 8 year old van. Go for one of those I recommended in earlier post, Dereks statement that they are not suitable is plain wrong. Most modern stop/start cars use an AGM system so the battery companies recommend them for this use and as deep recycle batteries but batteries like the Bosch and Varta I listed will do the same job and are first class leisure batteries. They are sealed for life and maintenance free.