Dartford Crossing

[calypso]

Hi wonder if anyone can help /advise us....we are going across to France on th 30th of August and not returning until the 10th October .....included in this holiday will be the European {Spain and Portugal} Escourted Tour Holiday Which I was lucky enough to win in the March MMM.....Seeing as we use the Dartford crossing to get to Dover .by the time we come back they will have done away with the pay booths .Has anyone bought a pre paid card or are you all planning to pay by card /phone . thank you

[colin]

When we have to use the new system will be either by phone or online. IIRC you have till midnight on the day to pay.

[Guest Had Enough]

I believe that you have until midnight the following day, so there's lots of time to pay by phone, text or online. If you crossed at 9:00 pm having to pay by midnight on the same day would put many of us under pressure.

 

As it is you'll be able to do it when you've arrived home and relaxed or, if you're going on holiday, from Dover or Calais for example by text.

[Guest pelmetman]

http://www.notolls.org.uk/england.htm#dartford

 

;-)

[maggyd]

Some more information on here

 

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/cost-of-motoring/dartford-crossing-dart-charge.html

 

 

 

still not clear who to text with payment though!!

[Billggski]

It's the same using the motorway around Dublin, you have to phone up the next day. A real pain for those of us who rarely use the crossing.

[maggyd]

It wont be so bad when coming home :-S but going over to France the first couple of days are usually spent on the move only stopping to sleep, its going to be a pain sorting it over there !! I wonder which bright spark thought this one up?? I can see it very busy after 10pm.

[Robinhood]

....as you can pay in advance or in arrears (the latter up to midnight the following day), it shouldn't be too difficult to sort out, and I for one will welcome the initiative if it cuts congestion at the tolls.

 

Of course, if they wanted it to be really user-friendly, the pre-pay option could be for n crossings, either not time-limited, or say within 6 months. Quite easy to implement and control, though not something that is available for the congestion charge, where specific days have to be nominated. We'll have to wait and check the prepay detail.

 

There will be a number of different ways to pay, and the account option, if it doesn't carry a premium for setting up the account, might be useful.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dart-charge-dartford-crossing-remote-payment

[Colin Leake]

A few months ago the motorway junctions leading up to the crossing we're closed and we were all sent round the other way. Wonder what happens with regards to a refund if you have already prepaid in those circumstances?

[Guest Had Enough]

Colin Leake - 2014-08-16 10:52 PM

 

A few months ago the motorway junctions leading up to the crossing we're closed and we were all sent round the other way. Wonder what happens with regards to a refund if you have already prepaid in those circumstances?

 

What would happen? The same thing as if your ferry sank before departure, your holiday was cancelled or your train journey was aborted because of a crash etc.

 

Why should this be any different? The same computers that know you've used the crossing will also know that you haven't and you'll be refunded or offered a crossing at a later date. They'll have a legal obligation to refund. Can you imagine the public uproar if they didn't? The system will already be in place.

 

I welcome this as it will help to eliminate the very long queues that we endured a few days ago.

 

[Corky 8]

I will try to book for the day I,m crossing and see how it goes, I,m hoping its as simple as giving your vehicle Registration Number and paying by credit/debit card , anything other than that and I will be traveling between 10pm and 6am and book my ferry accordingly , if they were really concerned about congestion they would do away with the tolls altogether as you can bet the crossing has been paid for at least twice over.

[Guest pelmetman]

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 8:38 AM

 

 

Why should this be any different? The same computers that know you've used the crossing will also know that you haven't and you'll be refunded or offered a crossing at a later date. They'll have a legal obligation to refund. Can you imagine the public uproar if they didn't? The system will already be in place.

 

 

 

From the London congestion charge website ;-).....................

 

 

TRANSPORT

FOR LONDON

 

Congestion Charge

Paying the Congestion Charge

Refunds & reimbursements

 

If you pay monthly or annually in advance and your plans change, you can request a refund for the days you are not going to use.

 

You can't request a refund for:

Unused days in the past

***Single pre-payments***

 

Hmmmm :-S..................I dare say if their computer says No :D.............Then I suspect the bridge toll computer will also say no for single prepayments :-|..............

 

 

[StuartO]

The tolls charged fro the dartford crossing must have been introduced on the basis that once the construction had been paid for they would stop.

 

But if you read the accounts (which are on line) they have reached that point but decided to continue charging because there would otherwise be an increase in traffic and allowing this would to happen impose loss of amenity on locals.

 

So it's better for us to continue charging. Good old Civil Service, always able to find a nice way to put it; Sir Humphrey would be proud.

[Guest Had Enough]

pelmetman - 2014-08-17 9:08 AM

 

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 8:38 AM

 

 

Why should this be any different? The same computers that know you've used the crossing will also know that you haven't and you'll be refunded or offered a crossing at a later date. They'll have a legal obligation to refund. Can you imagine the public uproar if they didn't? The system will already be in place.

 

 

 

From the London congestion charge website ;-).....................

 

 

TRANSPORT

FOR LONDON

 

Congestion Charge

Paying the Congestion Charge

Refunds & reimbursements

 

If you pay monthly or annually in advance and your plans change, you can request a refund for the days you are not going to use.

 

You can't request a refund for:

Unused days in the past

***Single pre-payments***

 

Hmmmm :-S..................I dare say if their computer says No :D.............Then I suspect the bridge toll computer will also say no for single prepayments :-|..............

 

 

If you can't use the crossing because of a problem on the motorway that's very different from deciding not to go into London having prepaid. Public opinion will, in my view, hold sway. Just imagine, a hold up on their motorway means that you can't use the crossing but you have to pay anyway.

 

Of course we won't know until it's officially announced but I believe that they'll have no choice. If they can find a way of not refunding the advance payment it only needs to happen once and from that day on no one will ever book in advance!

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 9:27 AM

 

pelmetman - 2014-08-17 9:08 AM

 

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 8:38 AM

 

 

Why should this be any different? The same computers that know you've used the crossing will also know that you haven't and you'll be refunded or offered a crossing at a later date. They'll have a legal obligation to refund. Can you imagine the public uproar if they didn't? The system will already be in place.

 

 

 

From the London congestion charge website ;-).....................

 

 

TRANSPORT

FOR LONDON

 

Congestion Charge

Paying the Congestion Charge

Refunds & reimbursements

 

If you pay monthly or annually in advance and your plans change, you can request a refund for the days you are not going to use.

 

You can't request a refund for:

Unused days in the past

***Single pre-payments***

 

Hmmmm :-S..................I dare say if their computer says No :D.............Then I suspect the bridge toll computer will also say no for single prepayments :-|..............

 

 

If you can't use the crossing because of a problem on the motorway that's very different from deciding not to go into London having prepaid. Public opinion will, in my view, hold sway. Just imagine, a hold up on their motorway means that you can't use the crossing but you have to pay anyway.

 

Of course we won't know until it's officially announced but I believe that they'll have no choice. If they can find a way of not refunding the advance payment it only needs to happen once and from that day on no one will ever book in advance!

 

Given that the authorities are not prepared to refund the £10.50 congestion charge ;-)...............Then I suspect they'll say refunding £2.50 is not economically viable :-| ..................

 

Paying the next day seems the better option to me............or traveling after 10 pm and before 6 am :D......

 

We'll have to wait for the small print ;-).............

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

StuartO - 2014-08-17 9:24 AM

 

The tolls charged fro the dartford crossing must have been introduced on the basis that once the construction had been paid for they would stop.

 

But if you read the accounts (which are on line) they have reached that point but decided to continue charging because there would otherwise be an increase in traffic and allowing this would to happen impose loss of amenity on locals.

 

So it's better for us to continue charging. Good old Civil Service, always able to find a nice way to put it; Sir Humphrey would be proud.

 

I believe that the government allowed the tolls to continue as part of a deal which included building the new bridge at a huge cost. The Dartford Crossing is a private finance initiative so it's reasonable that the investors get a return on their investment. And of course the annual maintenance costs are much larger than for a normal stretch of motorway.

 

I also believe that another reason for the continuance of tolls is for future investment in new crossings which may become necessary.

 

Perhaps we should start to be grateful that there are very few road tolls in the UK, as opposed to France where I've spent about £300 this year.

 

And in defence of civil servants, they only do what they're told by their employer, the government.

 

Of course it will be nice if one day we reach a point where tolls can be abolished but I confess to not having the knowledge as to when that should have been, or should be in the future and I certainly wouldn't take up Corky's bet that the crossing has already been paid for twice over.

 

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 9:41 AM

Perhaps we should start to be grateful that there are very few road tolls in the UK, as opposed to France where I've spent about £300 this year.

1) French drivers pay less in vehicle taxes to make up for having to pay tolls

2) Unlike Britain, France is a Transit country. Most of the foreign registered vehicles are just passing through, Britain to Italy, Italy to Spain etc, so its not unreasonable to collect a road tax from them. Wheras (apart from a tiny amount going to Southern Ireland) all the traffic in Britain has business here. Road tolls are just another stealth tax that is expensive to collect. The Government is trying to reduce the cost of collection with automated tolls. The biggest problem with this is that many of those with foreign registered vehicles wiil just drive through and laugh at them, like they do with parking charges, speeding charges, congestion zone etc etc. This has very serious implications for the British Road Haulage industry, already at a serious disadvantage to their foreign registered competitors who bring their own cheap diesel in with them in huge chassis tanks.

The British Road Haulage Industry is going the same way as the British Merchant Shipping Industry - Taxed and Regulated out of Existence. .

PS: and don't think you are not paying for it because any increase in the cost of Road Transport increases the cost of what you buy.

[Brian Kirby]

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 9:41 AM

 

StuartO - 2014-08-17 9:24 AM

 

The tolls charged fro the dartford crossing must have been introduced on the basis that once the construction had been paid for they would stop.

 

But if you read the accounts (which are on line) they have reached that point but decided to continue charging because there would otherwise be an increase in traffic and allowing this would to happen impose loss of amenity on locals.

 

So it's better for us to continue charging. Good old Civil Service, always able to find a nice way to put it; Sir Humphrey would be proud.

 

I believe that the government allowed the tolls to continue as part of a deal which included building the new bridge at a huge cost. The Dartford Crossing is a private finance initiative so it's reasonable that the investors get a return on their investment. And of course the annual maintenance costs are much larger than for a normal stretch of motorway.

 

I also believe that another reason for the continuance of tolls is for future investment in new crossings which may become necessary.

 

Perhaps we should start to be grateful that there are very few road tolls in the UK, as opposed to France where I've spent about £300 this year.

 

And in defence of civil servants, they only do what they're told by their employer, the government.

 

Of course it will be nice if one day we reach a point where tolls can be abolished but I confess to not having the knowledge as to when that should have been, or should be in the future and I certainly wouldn't take up Corky's bet that the crossing has already been paid for twice over.

Apologies for this, Frank, lifted from Wiki:

 

"The Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing, commonly known as the Dartford Crossing and until 1991 the Dartford Tunnel, is a major road crossing of the River Thames in England, connecting Dartford in Kent to the south to Thurrock in Essex to the north. It consists of two bored tunnels and the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge, a cable stayed bridge. The only fixed road crossing of the Thames east of Greater London, it is the busiest estuarial crossing in the United Kingdom, with an average daily use of over 130,000 vehicles. It opened in stages: the west tunnel in 1963, the east tunnel in 1980 and the bridge in 1991. The crossing forms part of the M25 motorway's route, though it is not under motorway restrictions itself. It has been described as one of the most important road crossings in Britain, and suffers from heavy traffic and congestion.

 

The crossing's development started in the late 1930s, but was interrupted due to World War II and resumed in the 1950s. The original tunnel catered for a single lane of traffic in each direction, but rising traffic levels required the second tunnel to be built. The M25 connected to the tunnels at both ends when completed in 1986, and this increased traffic put pressure on the tunnels' capacity. A Private Finance Initiative scheme was started in 1988 to build the bridge. The combined crossing now handles four lanes of traffic in each direction.

 

The crossing has always been tolled, though since 2008 it has been free from 10 pm to 6 am. Currently payment is via cash or a DART-Tag, an electronic device that handles automatic payment at a discount. A residents' scheme is available, offering further discounts for people living near the crossing. The toll booths are planned to be removed in October 2014, to be replaced by a fully electronic charging scheme."

 

So, only the QE2 bridge was a PFI. The two tunnels were financed in the usual way (with tolls levied to recover the cost over time, and fund maintenance).

 

I very much doubt that there is any route for money collected by the PFI consortium to be set aside for future construction of further bridges/tunnels. Any future projects will have to have their own finance arrangements - hopefully something rather more sensible and economical than PFI.

 

I have to say that I have yet to see a PFI project that represents, IMO, good value for money to the public. The driving consideration for entering into this form of finance was to shift capital investment costs away from the public purse and into the private sector, IIRC, in preparation for Sterling to enter the Euro, so as to bring down our level of public debt to within Euro "rules". Failure risk is therefore, not unreasonably, factored into each project by the financiers, as well as by the contractors, who are obliged to take on some of the risk. This means that unless all of the identified risks come about (possible, but very rare), there will be an immediate windfall profit to the PFI team. This is non-returnable. The public then leases the facility from the PFI provider for a (usually) fixed term. The net effect is that the public pays substantially more for the facility over its life than would have been the case if the capital cost had been raised by Government at its normally preferential borrowing rates, with the risk factors shared across the whole range of projects undertaken by Government.

 

(Another Wiki snip "By October 2007 the total capital value of PFI contracts signed throughout the UK was £68bn, committing the British taxpayer to future spending of £215bn over the life of the contracts." So £68bn of project value got us £251bn of debt!).

 

All this to satisfy an accounting convention designed to make Govenrment expenditure disappear from its balance sheet. These inflated costs, including those finance charges, then fall to be repaid over the next 30 years or so. It is, in effect, the Government's credit card, and they have just begun to wake up to fact that far too much has been placed upon it. This realisation is good, but has come far too late. Virtually every local authority in the country has also jumped on the PFI bandwaggon, and has used it in ways that were never, originally, contempleted - often on the basis of political dogma and with poor understainding of what the true costs would be.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-17 11:46 AM

 

All this to satisfy an accounting convention designed to make Govenrment expenditure disappear from its balance sheet. These inflated costs, including those finance charges, then fall to be repaid over the next 30 years or so. It is, in effect, the Government's credit card, and they have just begun to wake up to fact that far too much has been placed upon it. This realisation is good, but has come far too late. Virtually every local authority in the country has also jumped on the PFI bandwaggon, and has used it in ways that were never, originally, contempleted - often on the basis of political dogma and with poor understainding of what the true costs would be.

 

Creative accounting just hides debt *-)..................maybe when we leave the EU the UK PLC should declare its self bankrupt >:-)........................That'll clear a trillion pounds worth of debt :D...............

[StuartO]

Back on to the subject of using this crossing, since I approach the M25 from the M40, I have a choice of which way around to go.

 

I have used the Dartford crossing when coming from the A12 but usually I go southbound to miss it. There always seems to be a holdup, especially on the South side for traffic heading North.

 

Is that always because of the toll booths?

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-17 11:46 AM

 

Apologies for this, Frank, lifted from Wiki:

 

 

No need to apologise. Clearly I was wrong. I knew that the bridge was a PFI and lazily assumed that it all was. Thanks for putting me right.

[Guest Had Enough]

StuartO - 2014-08-17 3:09 PM

 

Back on to the subject of using this crossing, since I approach the M25 from the M40, I have a choice of which way around to go.

 

I have used the Dartford crossing when coming from the A12 but usually I go southbound to miss it. There always seems to be a holdup, especially on the South side for traffic heading North.

 

Is that always because of the toll booths?

 

No, the tolls don't cause that kind of problem. Oddly, the opposite happened to us on August 10th when we drove to Dover. We normally do the M1 and clockwise M25 but, just for a change, we tried the M40 with the intention of doing the M25 anti-clockwise.

 

There were warnings of very long delays on the anti-clockwise route owing to an accident I presume. These were signaled for quite some time down the M40.

 

We decided to use the Dartford Crossing route, which doesn't make much sense normally from the M40 as it adds an extra twenty miles. We sailed through apart from a few minutes delay at the toll booths.

 

I think that it's just pot luck, you can get a major delay whichever direction you choose.

 

 

[Robinhood]

Had Enough - 2014-08-17 3:38 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-17 11:46 AM

 

Apologies for this, Frank, lifted from Wiki:

 

 

No need to apologise. Clearly I was wrong. I knew that the bridge was a PFI and lazily assumed that it all was. Thanks for putting me right.

 

....actually, neither of you are correct, though there is an element of truth in both camps. (You really shouldn't believe Wiki, Brian ;-) ).

 

Arrangements are, and have been, considerably more convoluted than this, and the following Government document gives a good overview of the history:

 

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/our-road-network/the-dartford-thurrock-river-crossing/S120518%20Dartford%20Crossing%20Account%202011-12%20web%20version.pdf

[Guest pelmetman]

Robinhood - 2014-08-17 4:06 PM

 

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/our-road-network/the-dartford-thurrock-river-crossing/S120518%20Dartford%20Crossing%20Account%202011-12%20web%20version.pdf

 

Did you really read all that Robin? :-S...................On a Sunday 8-)...........

 

 

[Robinhood]

pelmetman - 2014-08-17 4:36 PM

 

Robinhood - 2014-08-17 4:06 PM

 

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/our-road-network/the-dartford-thurrock-river-crossing/S120518%20Dartford%20Crossing%20Account%202011-12%20web%20version.pdf

 

Did you really read all that Robin? :-S...................On a Sunday 8-)...........

 

 

 

........................before breakfast!

 

;-)