Chipping?

[Madmaggott]

My OH is raving about the benefits of chipping after discussing same with various folk at Malvern show.  He is 'told' that we can obtain both better performance and fuel economy.

I am extremely sceptical about 'messing' with the engine as, to my mind, the manufacturers will have already set it to the best of both as surely it's in their interests to do so bearing in mind how much owners/drivers discuss the matter of mpg and pulling power?

I would be interested if anyone who has a ducato euro5 130 manual transmission powered 3.5 tonne plated MH and has monitored both before and after 'chipping' figures would give the benefit of their experiences? 

(I wish my OH would put forward his own queries on here)!

 

[rolandrat]

Why bother, if your happy with the performance leave well alone. If it was to develop problems then you'd be opening a can of worms. I know of one guy who had it done and he regrets it as its developed a smoky exhaust and it can't be cured.

[StuartO]

Behind every successful man is an astonished woman, so the saying goes. I suppose our wives have seen us making too many mistakes in our lives to want to pretend that they still have any faith, so instead they ask a bunch of strangers on a forum for their opinion. :-(

 

There are various ways of improving an engine's performance, mostly involving nothing more than adjusting the way the electronics behave, which if necessary is entirely reversable. It's a bit like tuning the engine for better performance and physical changes like adding or changing electronic chips, are less common and probably unnecessary. If your OH has spoken to reputable people and thinks there is benefit from what they are offering, give it a try. Lots of people do this to boost their MH's power (eg for towing pruposes) and find it beneficial.

 

 

[Colin Leake]

Don't do it. I know two owners who have had it done and have run into problems. A heavy motorhome puts a heavy enough strain on the drive chain and engine without you adding to it. The difference between a standard 130 engine and a standard 150 involves up ratting various other parts rather than simply the electronics which explains the price difference being greater than one may expect.

 

I have noticed my engine seems to run better when I put Shell fuel in rather than supermarket fuel, the standard fuel rather tha the super duper expensive stuff that seems to make little difference.

 

Has someone been fiddling about with this site? It seems to have suddenly gone super fast.

[Don636]

I have not chipped my motorhome but have had a Volvo V70 chipped when I started towing a caravan. After it was chipped I complained that I could not detect any difference and was told to go to the main outlet to have it looked at. They worked on it for the day and I convinced myself that there was some improvement but it was still not worth the money in my opinion. Shortly after that the Geartronic gearbox suffered a problem where it stuck in 4th gear when towing the caravan in windy conditions. I took the car to a Volvo dealer but they could find nothing wrong and I changed the car soon thereafter. I still maintain to this day that the chipping caused some sort of communication issue with the gearbox but who knows. I would not risk doing this again, just for another few horse powers. Is the standard level of performance really a problem in any case?

[lennyhb]

With the cost of new engines running to many thousands of pounds is it really worth the risk. The 2.3 Multijet performs very well and gives good economy so why bother.

[Madmaggott]

StuartO - 2014-08-26 12:20 PMBehind every successful man is an astonished woman, so the saying goes. I suppose our wives have seen us making too many mistakes in our lives to want to pretend that they still have any faith, so instead they ask a bunch of strangers on a forum for their opinion. :-( 

 

As I seem to have to reiterate my points following each and every post on here, or perhaps I didn't make it crystal clear above, my OH asked me to put the query to those helpful forum members who are so very accommodating in sharing their experiences with others.  I have great admiration for my husband's many skills and accomplishments but he and I are intelligent enough to recognise and admit when we have gaps in our knowledge and need to ask others and/or research the subject.

 

[rolandrat]

"Entirely Reversible"!!! Can this be substantiated or is it just a myth. Maybe I'm being over cautious but based on what I've heard from friends who own motorhomes I'd leave well alone. If power and economy is the main motivator to want to consider remapping then get a Fiat 3.0ltr Prancing Horse. They ooze more than necessary power with low down torque that's so quiet and relaxing to drive.

[Brian Kirby]

Madmaggott - 2014-08-26 10:59 AMMy OH is raving about the benefits of chipping after discussing same with various folk at Malvern show.  He is 'told' that we can obtain both better performance and fuel economy.

I am extremely sceptical about 'messing' with the engine as, to my mind, the manufacturers will have already set it to the best of both as surely it's in their interests to do so bearing in mind how much owners/drivers discuss the matter of mpg and pulling power?

I would be interested if anyone who has a ducato euro5 130 manual transmission powered 3.5 tonne plated MH and has monitored both before and after 'chipping' figures would give the benefit of their experiences? 

(I wish my OH would put forward his own queries on here)!

It is highly unlikely you can have both better performance and better fuel economy at the same time. One or the other, yes. I'd be a bit tempted to ask if the sources of this advice might have been selling chips, and then to ask if you have ever encountered a salesman who knocks the product he hopes to sell? :-)The engines are optimised for operation under a wide variety of conditions, running on fuels of varying quality. Chipping exploits some of the performance margin that the manufacturer maintains to preserve durability, to release more of its potential performance to the driver. In doing this, the engine will run hotter, as it is doing more work. Bear in mind also that the engines are optimised for use in a panel van, and that few panel vans operate continually at the weight of a motorhome, and nor do they have the frontal area of a motorhome. Thus, when propelling a motorhome, the engine is already being worked harder than would be the case for the engine of an average panel van travelling under the same conditions.So, yes, of course the engine can be chipped, and may deliver better fuel economy, or develop more power. To do this it will be stressed to a greater level than its design foresaw, and that added stress will, eventually, have consequences. Possibly overheating, possibly unreliability, possibly accellerated wear, possibly failure of some kind. It is therefore a risk. If you are comfortable with the risk, add the chip, if not, don't! Before adding a chip I'd ask what actual guarantee the seller offers that that exhaust emissions will continue to meet the Euro5 emissions limits when the van is subjected to its next, and subsequent, MoTs.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I go along with the leave well alone a camper hardly a sports car. Tell hubby to get over himself and go for a long walk...boys toys indeed :-D

[rolandrat]

I wonder how many remapped engine motorhomes are being offered for sale on dealers forecourts? An unsuspecting new owner could decide to have it remapped not knowing that it had already been done. What would the consequences be then, it's bound to happen to someone sometime. Would an owner who was doing a part exchange tell the dealer that the engine had been remapped, I doubt it.

[Madmaggott]

Judge Mental once again living up to his nom de plume.

 

Many thanks Brian for the sensible and pertinent points for consideration.

 

[Tea Cup]

I could certainly do with more power in certain circumstances - I find mountain hairpins quite problematic, more from the point of view of low rev torque, which the turbo does not handle too well. I'd like to hear from people that have actually tried it, rather than people who haven't.

 

Regarding economy versus power, it seems to me that a more flexible power range would reduce fuel usage, since the throttle openings would be reduced. I would not drive any faster, so the comparison with sport cars is not valid. Since it is more about optimising performance, I would be prepared to risk it - provided knowledgable customer feedback proved good.

 

[RubyExsis]

Instead of 'chipping' I have often used the 'Premium' diesel offered by Shell , BP and latterly Esso.

My small (but tall) Hymer Exsis is the older 2.3JTD, but the better fuel certainly gives it a little better performance and economy and it seems to run sweeter.

 

My experience is that not all of the additional fuel cost is recovered, but I feel that I do get some benefit without the initial financial outlay of chipping or changing the engine set up.

 

This post will probably open a can of worms and I'll probably get told that I am wasting my money - but it is mine.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Tea Cup - 2014-08-26 5:35 PMI could certainly do with more power in certain circumstances - I find mountain hairpins quite problematic, more from the point of view of low rev torque, which the turbo does not handle too well. I'd like to hear from people that have actually tried it, rather than people who haven't.

 

Regarding economy versus power, it seems to me that a more flexible power range would reduce fuel usage, since the throttle openings would be reduced. I would not drive any faster, so the comparison with sport cars is not valid. Since it is more about optimising performance, I would be prepared to risk it - provided knowledgable customer feedback proved good.

It would help if you could say what base vehicle this is. My experience is limited to a 2005 2.8JTD "Power" version Ducato, a 2007 2.2L 130PS Transit, and the present 2.3L 150PS Ducato. On these, the only problem I have experienced on some very tight uphill hairpins was wheelspin, as the neaside front wheel lost traction, but never lack of torque. Are you finding you have to re-start on the hairpins, or is it possible the revs have dropped too low due to not using all the gears?The electronics can be optimised for economy. Unless your van is not of the drive-by-wire variety all you do when you press the accellerator pedal is tell a computer you want more power. The computer program then alters the way the engine is fuelled to achieve that. The remap, or chip, alters the computer program in favour of economy. If you go for a remap, make sure you get, and keep, a copy of the original program so that the remap can be reversed if it causes unexpected problems, or if the firm that has carried it out goes out of business. A well executed remap is probably the best solution overall, as it is specific to the vehicle, but it will cost more than a tuning chip. Plug-in tuning chips tend to be generic and use standardiesd modelling to modify how the engine runs. Less subtle, and probably less effective, but cheaper and easily reversed.My concern would be that if your van is struggling with insufficient torque even in the lowest gears, it is either not running properly, or is basically too small for the van. I don't think you will realistically be able to compensate for either by chipping it. In the first case it will not fix the running, and in the second case it will work it considerably harder at, presumably, low revs (In fact, the torque curves of most common rail diesels are quite steep, and begin from relaitvely low revs, so I'm assuming if yours is dropping off the bottom of its curve, it is possibly being asked to perform a bit like a steam engine). My understanding of modern common rail turbodiesels is that unlike their earlier, naturally aspirated, mechanically injected, counterparts they need to be revved and do not much "like" being worked hard at low revs. Be interested to hear what Nick (Euroserv) has to say on this, as stuff changes fast and old information rapidly becomes out-of-date.

[Billggski]

I had my Jaguar ecu re-mapped (not chipped, which is replacing an electrical unit, or putting a box in to raise the fuel pressure) some time ago and the results are remarkable.

Manufacturers are now chasing CO2 emissions targets to get their models into lower tax bands with totally spurious mpg figures, so there is a big gain to be made with powerful, lightweight cars.

White vans are different though, and has been said, as MH's they carry a big load on their backs.

Plug in boxes are reversible, and can be removed when you sell, but recent comparisons indicate there is little improvement seen.

I was going to have a re-map, about £200 + vat, but have decided to potter along in the slow lane.

 

[Injebreck99]

I had my 130 Bolero remapped, not chipped last year, with dramatic improvements, torque is increased from 3rd gear upwards, fuel consumption has gone from average 27-29 mpg to 31-32mpg, but more importantly, the engine is now much quieter and smoother to drive, it has increased the amount of pleasure that I now get from driving it, with no negative side effects as far as I have found,. you would have to judge yourselves if the cost is justified, I am very happy with my upgrade.

[StuartO]

rolandrat - 2014-08-26 4:58 PM

 

I wonder how many remapped engine motorhomes are being offered for sale on dealers forecourts? An unsuspecting new owner could decide to have it remapped not knowing that it had already been done. What would the consequences be then, it's bound to happen to someone sometime. Would an owner who was doing a part exchange tell the dealer that the engine had been remapped, I doubt it.

 

If an engine is re-mapped there will be no outward visible evidence of change. If the same engine gets remapped again, it won't double up or anything like that because remapping involves substituting one set of configuration of the engine's control unit for another. You can ask for re-mapping to restore the vehicle's original settings if you want that.

 

Note that engine manufacturers make exactly the same engine do different things for different markets and applications, so re-mapping doesn't necessarily impose undue strain. Having said that manufacturers do also sometimes make different physical versions of an engine too but mostly these days it's just a question of different settings and the engine is just the same.

 

As Brian has pointed out, you can't really have more power and more fuel economy, and if you are using the extra power potential of your re-mapped engine you should expect it to use more fuel in order to develop that extra power. Overall however it might well be possible to achieve better fuel economy with a re-mapped engine, as long as you are driving it with a light foot!

 

The gain to be had from re-mapping is more torque as well as power and torque might be more important for a MH owner - because it is what is needed to accelerate away on a hill and to climb steep hills, for example when towing a heavy trailer. Increased power will help if you are after increased speed but for MHs you probably aren't.

 

Some years ago a company called TB Turbo in Lancaster were re-mappiing engines and as part of the service providing "before and after" dynomometer reading of the engone's power and torque curves, to illustrate what their re-mapping had achieved. These readouts of actual performance showed you what you had gained. Unfortunately TB Turbo went bust but there may be other engine re-mappers who can offer a similar dynamometer service. Dynamometers are rolling-road-type machines so they are quite expensive to buy and install.

 

You are of course supposed to tell your insurer if you go for performance enhancement of this kind and they would probably then impose a surcharge on your premium.

[rolandrat]

It makes very interesting reading about the pro's and con's but nothing has been mentioned about the manufactures warranty being put in jeopardy if the engine's ECU has been tampered with. A friend did mention that he'd had his motorhome remapped and it had caused clutch slip on many occasions resulting in a new clutch being fitted by a commercial garage in Stoke-on -Trent only for it to last for a short while and then had to be replaced again. Not longer after he traded it in for another motorhome. It was an Alko 3 axle. The increase in power output obviously affected the transmission.

[StuartO]

The manufacturer's warranty is usually only a consideration for the first 12 months but your MH's ability to handle the increased torque and power might indeed be a factor in whether to re-map the engine.

 

For example I was looking into buying one of the Hymer S Class made between 2001-2006 on a Mercedes 518 chassis, which had the option of a five speed automatic gearbox, which a lot of purchasers opted for. But the towing capacity of the MH dropped from 2000kg with the manual gearbox to only 750kg with the automatic, even though the gross vehicle weight was the same at 5,900 kg.

 

The only logical explanation for this was that the automatic gearbox (the only difference) couldn't handle the work of towing the higher loads. Hymer appeared to come under pressure to resolve this limitation because 750kg was not really an acceptable towing limitation to users.

 

The answer, for later models, was to allow a higher towing limit with the automatic gearbox but only if the gross train weight strayed below 6750kg. In other words the extra towing weight had to be compensated for with a reduction in payload.

 

Incidentally the towing limit of 2000 kg for the manual gearbox was limited by chassis design - it is common across many Hymer models and relates to the maximum weight the rear of the chassis can cope with swinging on it.

 

So increasing engine torque and power by re-mapping wouldn't be very clever if your automatic gearbox was the limiting factor in the power which could be handled. Maye you coould cope with more power if you added additional oil cooling for the gearbox, but maybe it was a limitation of the mechanical side of the gearbox. There might not be a solution.

[Guest Joe90]

A friend of mine had an after market tuning box fitted about four months ago, he tows a Smart car with his van, the box has he said transformed both the power and the fuel economy seeing an increase of around 5 mpg, he's hoping for more once over the channel, he's left today on route to Italy, I was initially tempted based on his experience, but how long exactly would it take to get my £350 back at 5 mpg extra, even assuming that no extra wear or problems resulted, but then again how would you know any problems were the result of the box, seems like a can of worms to me.

[StuartO]

I suppose part of the problem is the association of chipping with people who want go-faster cars, so that we older and perhaps more conservative MH types will shy away from doing it. And there will be a fear of cowboy operators, and uncertainty about the cheaper "plug in" performance enhancer deviuces you can buy and install yourself.

 

But some motorhomers have had their engines chipped (or more likely their engine ECUs re-mapped) with distinctly beneficial results. If you don't want to take any risks you probably won't do it. You pays your money and you makes our choice.

[Tea Cup]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-26 6:43 PM

Tea Cup - 2014-08-26 5:35 PMI could certainly do with more power in certain circumstances - I find mountain hairpins quite problematic, more from the point of view of low rev torque, which the turbo does not handle too well. I'd like to hear from people that have actually tried it, rather than people who haven't.

 

Regarding economy versus power, it seems to me that a more flexible power range would reduce fuel usage, since the throttle openings would be reduced. I would not drive any faster, so the comparison with sport cars is not valid. Since it is more about optimising performance, I would be prepared to risk it - provided knowledgable customer feedback proved good.

It would help if you could say what base vehicle this is. My experience is limited to a 2005 2.8JTD "Power" version Ducato, a 2007 2.2L 130PS Transit, and the present 2.3L 150PS Ducato. On these, the only problem I have experienced on some very tight uphill hairpins was wheelspin, as the neaside front wheel lost traction, but never lack of torque. Are you finding you have to re-start on the hairpins, or is it possible the revs have dropped too low due to not using all the gears? ....My concern would be that if your van is struggling with insufficient torque even in the lowest gears, it is either not running properly, or is basically too small for the van.

Thanks for your well considered input, Brian. The van is a 1.9 6-speed Vivaro. I intend to get it weighed locally, but it certainly feels a heavy conversion. It drives very well under normal circumstances, will happily cruise at higher speeds than would be allowed in the UK, and the power drop on long motorway inclines is no worse than any other similar van. In fact it is normally a genuine pleasure to drive.

 

I am well versed in mountain driving, my normal driving style is to be in the correct gear for the upcoming corner, proactive driving rather than reactive. I try not to change on the corner, but have been forced into changing into first gear mid corner in the extreme situation, when of course you loose momentum. I am talking of inside hairpin turns with sharp incline, when I have approached in second gear, already being reduced to low revs. It has already run out of puff. I dream of wheelspin!

 

It does seem lacking in power/torque at low revs. I have observed olderr non-turbo vans storming up the inclines where I have struggled. It is not a large engine, but should cope. I complained at the last service, but the engineer could not find any contributing factors. It has not been measured on a rolling road. Hence my interest in chipping/remapping.

 

My last van was a slightly lighter automatic 2.6 litre, so I would obviously notice the difference. Even so ...

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

I was going to try to find a torque curve for the engine, but Vauxhall are now on about the new Vivaro which, of course, has new engines! Hey ho!

From what you say it sounds as though it lacks low speed torque. Whether that is deliberate, and if so for what reason, or is indicative of a problem, if your service centre can't tell you, is anyone's guess.

Maybe you'd just have to regard first as a normal driving gear under the circumstances you describe. Is it high geared overall, I wonder?

[rolandrat]

StuartO - 2014-08-26 8:48 PM

 

The manufacturer's warranty is usually only a consideration for the first 12 months but your MH's ability to handle the increased torque and power might indeed be a factor in whether to re-map the engine.

 

For example I was looking into buying one of the Hymer S Class made between 2001-2006 on a Mercedes 518 chassis, which had the option of a five speed automatic gearbox, which a lot of purchasers opted for. But the towing capacity of the MH dropped from 2000kg with the manual gearbox to only 750kg with the automatic, even though the gross vehicle weight was the same at 5,900 kg.

 

The only logical explanation for this was that the automatic gearbox (the only difference) couldn't handle the work of towing the higher loads. Hymer appeared to come under pressure to resolve this limitation because 750kg was not really an acceptable towing limitation to users.

 

The answer, for later models, was to allow a higher towing limit with the automatic gearbox but only if the gross train weight strayed below 6750kg. In other words the extra towing weight had to be compensated for with a reduction in payload.

 

Incidentally the towing limit of 2000 kg for the manual gearbox was limited by chassis design - it is common across many Hymer models and relates to the maximum weight the rear of the chassis can cope with swinging on it.

 

So increasing engine torque and power by re-mapping wouldn't be very clever if your automatic gearbox was the limiting factor in the power which could be handled. Maye you coould cope with more power if you added additional oil cooling for the gearbox, but maybe it was a limitation of the mechanical side of the gearbox. There might not be a solution.

 

 

Isn't that model Merc a robotic manual, if so I can't see why it should be down rated for towing. Even a torque gearbox with an oil cooler should be more than capable.