candapack Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm interested in one of the Nexxo "55" special editions, new models this year (Or maybe last year?) I thought that Burstners had been "wood free" for some time but have read that only models from 2015 on will be wood free. Can anyone shed some light on this? The Burstner website just talks about current/new models (fair enough), and I can't seem to find any info on the build method of earlier ones. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Can't offer anything on their construction, but they have long held a widespread reputation for good quality and good durability. My gripe on the latest offerings I have seen is that they show some silly design flaws where things like retracting washbasins are blocked by other fitments, and IMO, silly, flimsy, interior features like net Roman blinds that look as though they will fail after about six operations. Pretty, maybe, but functional? Our first van was a Burstner and it was solid and practical. The 2013 vans I was looking at were full of glitz and bling, but nearly all had some feature that either didn't work, or looked as though it soon wouldn't. So, I'd say look critically at whatever you are considering, and try everything to make sure it actually functions properly. Don't let the stardust get into your eyes! :-) They are made in Kehl, just across the Rhine from Strasbourg, and although it is a long way from Scotland, they have a very well reputed customer service centre to which you can take problems a dealer cannot, or will not, rectify, as a last resort. I have met two people who have used this service, one where the dealer was a clot, and the other who had a rooflight pop out while he was in Alsace. Both were hugely impressed by the way they, and their vans, were treated at the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 The most recent construction information from Promobil shows them using wooden frames in wall and roof panels, but this was a year or so back. The lower face of the floor is plywood, largely unprotected but bitumen sprayed in parts. No GRP protective under floor liner which, depending on your opinion of these, may or may not be considered a bad thing. Not very inspiring underneath with liberal use of mild steel staples gunned-in to attach wiring etc. I'm not a fan of the roof-to-wall join method. Basically the two aluminium sheets meet at a right angle with no overlap; the roof panel fits down in between the wall panel frames and the roof sheet is then screwed down onto mastic tape placed on the upper wall frame. A rubber moulding is then rubber-malleted over the join on more sealant. This relies entirely on sealants for the waterproofing and the very strip that finishes the joint provides a handy upstand to pool water to constantly test that joint. Not a fail-safe system such as a roof with a biscuit tin lid overlap. The wall panels on some Burstners are made from more than one alu sheet with a horizontal overlap joint. Not a problem in itself but a common leakage point if window frames cross that joint: the frame's mastic tape works fine on a flat surface but tends to lift over time over this joint and allow water in. Just my observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Steve928 - 2014-10-08 9:21 AM Not very inspiring underneath with liberal use of mild steel staples gunned-in to attach wiring etc. I'm not a fan of the roof-to-wall join method. Basically the two aluminium sheets meet at a right angle with no overlap; the roof panel fits down in between the wall panel frames and the roof sheet is then screwed down onto mastic tape placed on the upper wall frame. A rubber moulding is then rubber-malleted over the join on more sealant. This relies entirely on sealants for the waterproofing and the very strip that finishes the joint provides a handy upstand to pool water to constantly test that joint. Not a fail-safe system such as a roof with a biscuit tin lid overlap. That's surprised me...Why do manufacturers continue to use such p*ss poor methods! 8-) ..Surely, it's no dearer to design it correctly?... As has been said before, you wouldn't lap panels on your garden shed like that! What are they thinking?.... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Mostly, they stick to what they know, and what they know started 40 or more years ago with trailer caravans. Changing construction methods carries considerable risks, as new and unforeseen problems are almost bound to emerge. So, they cling to nurse, for fear of finding something worse. My sense is that there is no dedicated technical training course for motorhome designers. Loads of industrial design courses, but motorhome design requires an amalgam of building technology and automotive technology. Presently that amalgam, insofar as it exists at all, is sprinkled liberally with garden shed technology. Those who have developed alternative methods of construction, most notably Bailey, and to some extent Hymer (who I am told gained their new technique when they acquired Niesmann+Bischoff), deserve to benefit from having the courage, and good sense, to make changes. The others will, at some stage, presumably begin to copy, but not until they are convinced the benefits are real and lasting. For example, it seems odd to me that although Hymer and Niesmann (and I believe some TECs), are using the timber free bonded panel method (which still involves liberal use of screws on the inside), they have not dissimilated the technique throughout the Hymer group, so Dethleffs, Laika, and Burstner still seem to be continuing with their own methods. That suggests a bit of a wait and see approach within the group. If the ingress claims show true benefits to the technique Hymer has currently adopted (I do hope so! :-)), presumably construction across the group will follow that path. First law of engineering: never change more than one thing at a time - then you know where to look for the cause of the new problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 But from what Steve describes, they aren't even meeting "old fashioned" levels of design quality ... It doesn't matter what materials they use or fancy acronyms they come up with..sitting a roof panel assembly with in the walls, rather than having it cap them, is just wrong.. When I left school, I worked for 10 years at a small, family owned ("old fashioned")commercial vehicle body and coach builders and although the "methods" that were used then were "low tech", there's no way in hell, we would constructed a roof like that...Steve's "Biscuit tin lid" , was the norm then. (returns/lips formed on the roof sheets, these sat over the side sheets, with a ali drip moulding covering the join on the side face). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 pepe63 - 2014-10-08 9:37 AM Steve928 - 2014-10-08 9:21 AM Not very inspiring underneath with liberal use of mild steel staples gunned-in to attach wiring etc. I'm not a fan of the roof-to-wall join method. Basically the two aluminium sheets meet at a right angle with no overlap; the roof panel fits down in between the wall panel frames and the roof sheet is then screwed down onto mastic tape placed on the upper wall frame. A rubber moulding is then rubber-malleted over the join on more sealant. This relies entirely on sealants for the waterproofing and the very strip that finishes the joint provides a handy upstand to pool water to constantly test that joint. Not a fail-safe system such as a roof with a biscuit tin lid overlap. That's surprised me...Why do manufacturers continue to use such p*ss poor methods! 8-) ..Surely, it's no dearer to design it correctly?... As has been said before, you wouldn't lap panels on your garden shed like that! What are they thinking?.... :-S Probably will it last the warranty period, and of course an eye on profitability for the shareholders. Somewhere within a company is a bloke who has worked out it's cheaper and faster to use a staple gun instead of screws, a bit like my daughters newish house where the majority of skirting boards are coming away due to being just glued on to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-08 10:46 AM they have not dissimilated the technique throughout the Hymer group, so Dethleffs, Laika, and Burstner still seem to be continuing with their own methods. As Brian has mentioned Dethleffs, here is a rather grainy snip from a Dethleffs factory tour showing a roof panel being lowered down into place to form just such a joint. It is then screwed down and a rubber corner strip applied. To be fair I don't know which vehicle this is - it may even be a caravan - but the joint finish appears superficially to be like that seen on their lower end motorhomes at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 pepe63 - 2014-10-08 11:27 AM But from what Steve describes, they aren't even meeting "old fashioned" levels of design quality ... It doesn't matter what materials they use or fancy acronyms they come up with..sitting a roof panel assembly with in the walls, rather than having it cap them, is just wrong.................... Yep! Which is why I say motorhomes are mostly made from chicken poop and lard! I agree with the rest as well. To be fair, some manufacturers do lap the roof over the side sheets, but then they put screws through the overlap from the outside, all covered with cover strips and sealant (usually not applied to a properly designed joint), of course. With what you and I know between us, we could go bankrupt in no time by starting a new range of properly built, everlasting, motorhomes. How about it? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-08 12:08 PM With what you and I know between us, we could go bankrupt in no time by starting a new range of properly built, everlasting, motorhomes...:-D You're probably correct about the "bankrupt" bit.... We(that coach builders) used to do quite a few "transfers"..Ie removing a body that we'd previously built and refitting it onto a new chassis .So apart from a couple of days labour and maybe a few minor repairs and repaint in their new livery, there was probably very little profit in the exercise. I remember when we first came across bodies built by Imgamex in Telford, we laughed at the things being held together with pop rivets etc...but they did the job that the customer was asking of them and the company is(or was)thriving.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have voiced my opinion many times on this subject, what surprises me is that both Burstner and Hobby [probably amongst others] seem to have reverted back to the narrower 'old school' joining profile, having used a much chunkier bonded profile in the past. The more recent approach - if used with a rubber insert, is clearly a backward step to the processes used years ago. Although at least with decent PU sealants water ingress is likely to be far less of an issue now. If indeed, screws are being used underneath the insert [surely not these days] I would run a mile! As Steve says, the undersides are of greater concern, I have witnessed the self same, with steel staples actually gunned into plywood sheeting, and worst still into the end laminate, and very poor/non-existent protection from the elements. Last years trip to the NEC was an eye opener, and Shed construction still appeared to be the primary method favoured by many. The use of GRP underside protection, is in principal a good thing - but I can assure you that badly executed, this will be worse than the shed method at least being able to dry out periodically. It's all down to price and what sells a product - it seems these days that bling takes precedence over construction techniques. So the trade off is simply using inferior methods to off-set costs of fixtures and components - whilst remaining competitive. All the while buyers are swept away to happy land when they look through the door, and don't bother to question the construction methods the trend will continue. For once the UK builders should be applauded for making an effort with new techniques, its the application of the concept that will always be the weakness. It's nothing new - Early 70' Autohomes had a GRP overlapping lid which at least gave the roof integrity, but then they reverted to the butt join, profile capping, and they leaked from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Thanks for the input. I'm nearly at the point of changing van (actually, I'm there but still need to convince the OH) For a particular reason, I will never buy from a distant dealer again, but that restricts me to a choice of 2 localish dealers. So, if buying new, I'll just have to go with what they deal in, which is why I was looking at a Burstner. I imagine that despite the criticised construction techniques (not just Burstner I should add), you're still quite unlucky if you have a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 All I suggest is that you spend as much time underneath the van as you do inside, when looking at ANY prospective new purchase. Burstner was once a van I aspired to, that's not so much the case these days...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 At least Frankia build their vans well. Fibreglass > Blue Foam > 4mm Hard Plastic treadplate patterned Lower floor. 20mm ply plastic coated both sides upper floor. With all cables, water tanks and services between the floors. So, no outside cables or water pipes etc to corrode or freeze. The benefit of a double heated floor is that it gives loads of storage in a shortish van and the van is warmer as well. But...........they don't come cheap. But, money well spent in my view. I hope my faith is well founded as it's probably the only new van we will ever buy. We did go on a factory visit last month and were well impressed with their working methods, as they were obviously proud of their products and were a very close, smallish team, like a family. With ethics like that it does instil a certain amount of confidence in the products they produce:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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