rupert123 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-18 12:30 PM rolandrat - 2014-10-18 10:53 AM Some years ago when Lunar were building coachbuilt motorhomes we road tested a 620 on an Alko chassis, we drove it for quite a few miles on differing road surfaces but weren't impressed with the ride. It was like driving on steel rims. The build quality was top draw. We then spotted another 620 at another dealers so I looked underneath and it was built on a Fiat chassis. We had a road test drive which was very smooth so we bought it. When we got it home I wanted to fit a Safe so I looked for a place under a bunk and was horrified to see the drive, there was a large hole with bare wires where the tyres had rubbed the floor away. On checking the other side it was the same. The dealer was very surprised to see me back so soon. I wanted to know who the guy was that had done the pre delivery inspection but he wouldn't tell me who it was. When he saw the problem he was gob smacked. We went into the office and he rang Lunar straight away who then said that they wanted the motorhome back on the production line to put it right. They gave me a car to use and four days later asked me to go back and pick it up. The body had been built on the Fiat chassis which was narrower that the Alko so the floor plan was to wide resulting in the rubbing away of both wheel arch areas. Some numpty would have got an ear bashing for such a stupid mistake. It ended up having new wheel arches fitted along with a new wiring harness. You would have thought that it should have been spotted on the production line at the very beginning of the build. Some owners of Alko chassis have air assisted suspension fitted, one of my previous motorhomes had it fitted but no matter what pressure was used or tyre pressures tried there wasn't any improvement of ride smoothness. Maybe if the air suspension was 100% and not just to assist the standard suspension as is on most heavy commercial vehicles then the ride quality would be far better. As long as there are torsion bushes fitted they wont be able to be altered. The only reason to fit added air suspension would be for carrying extra weight on the rear end such as scooters or whatever. Sounds like typical British workmanship that's why I buy German. :D As for the ride quality our last van was on the Fiat Camping Car chassis and the ride was hard but very good, current van has an Al-Ko chassis the ride ride quality is in a different world far superior to the Fiat. Come off it Lenny, think you have got that the wrong way round these days. This comment was on a van years ago, things have changed you really need to catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 LordThornber - 2014-10-18 9:01 AM Sorry for hogging the thread but I've just been reading thr fine print of al ko's terms and conditions. I can only see 12 months warranty, obviously when they respond to mine and Brian's contact we'll learn more but at first glance if there's nothing more than a standard 12 months guarantee then there's little to sweat about. I'd still get the grease done obviously, it's a no brainer. Martyn As you say, Martyn, we shall see. Although not directly relevant to your Bailey, it is my understanding that Hymer provides a standard two year warranty on their vehicles (to match the Fiat base warranty) and that this covers the whole vehicle (I think this arises through German consumer legislation, that effectively requires the base vehicle warranty to be matched throughout. Whether the liability for two year warranties passes to individual component suppliers - fridges, heaters etc - or is assumed by the converter I don't know. Logically, this would include the Al-Ko chassis elements. It is worth noting that the standard conditions as on their website state "unless otherwise agreed etc" against the standard 12 months warranty period. This seems to me to imply there may be some flexibility that can be negotiated. So, yours may be more than 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-18 10:43 AM..........I would lubricate them, but I think its taking it a bit far to worry about what type of grease for a suspension joint that is not subject to high temperatures. Peter, the specified grease is stated to be suitable for higher loads in plain and roller bearings with low rotation speeds, to have good water resistance, and to be suitable for high temperature applications. The latter, it seems, is not directly relevant to the Al-Ko axle bearing application, it just comes as part of the package. However, water resistance and high loads on plain bearings would seem relevant. I hope to find out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-18 5:34 PM However, water resistance and high loads on plain bearings would seem relevant. Certainly, but i can see no reason why it would be more relevant to an Alko chassis than every other chassis what a general purpose grease is designed for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I am not sure what Alko.s terms and conditions have to do with anything, other than maintaining them properly. Surely if you buy a new van the maker offers a warranty and unless an item is excluded e.g. things like tyres then the makers warranty will apply, buy British and this is usually three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 rupert123 - 2014-10-18 5:59 PM buy British and this is usually three years. On European vehicles the first 2 years is a manufacturers warranty the 3rd is normally a dealer insurance backed warranty this is the way Fiat work, and of course they charge you for it with higher prices and additional services that are not required in other countries, as they say ought for nought. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-18 10:43 AM As I understand it, car manufacturers gave up putting grease nipples on cars when they found that few garages bothered to find and lubricate them. I would lubricate them, but I think its taking it a bit far to worry about what type of grease for a suspension joint that is not subject to high temperatures. Grease nipples were deleted when technology made them unneccesary depriving lubrication bay operatives( grease monkeys) of a nice little earner in tips as properly serviced cars felt so much nicer to drive. Some cars had scores, ' More bloody nipples than a second hand sow.' as the the lube bay mechanic where I served my apprenticship would say. The wrong grease may not do the job leading to accelerated wear. I have a feling the Al-Ko bearing are unsealed so they need a waterproof grease to help keep road dirt out and stay working if it gets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-18 6:12 PM rupert123 - 2014-10-18 5:59 PM buy British and this is usually three years. On European vehicles the first 2 years is a manufacturers warranty the 3rd is normally a dealer insurance backed warranty this is the way Fiat work, and of course they charge you for it with higher prices and additional services that are not required in other countries, as they say ought for nought. (lol) Those who knock British vans might reflect on the fact that the last truly British Van, the Rover Pilot, came with a 3 year 150,000 warranty - and that was over 20 years ago - and many of them went to the Post Office - the hardest use of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 George Collings - 2014-10-18 6:24 PM . I have a feling the Al-Ko bearing are unsealed so they need a waterproof grease to help . I can't recall seeing a general purpose grease that didn't claim to be waterproof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 George Collings - 2014-10-18 6:24 PM Grease nipples were deleted when technology made them unneccesary depriving lubrication bay operatives( grease monkeys) of a nice little earner in tips as properly serviced cars felt so much nicer to drive.. All the 'Which' garage servicing reports I have seen showed grease nipples being missed. You still get chassis lubrication on lorries, by oil pumped through thin plastic pipes to each joint. Incidentally, a retired Technical College Lecturer I know never has his car serviced at all, just changes the battery when it gets to the stage when it won''t start, buys a new car new and keeps it about 12 years - and it looks immaculate. But he only does about 1,000 miles a year. I still stick loosely to the manufacturers recommendations though, except when it comes to fluids and lubricants where they promote certain brands for commercial reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-19 9:17 AM Incidentally, a retired Technical College Lecturer I know never has his car serviced at all, just changes the battery when it gets to the stage when it won''t start, buys a new car new and keeps it about 12 years - and it looks immaculate. But he only does about 1,000 miles a year. I still stick loosely to the manufacturers recommendations though, except when it comes to fluids and lubricants where they promote certain brands for commercial reasons. My wife's car is 15 years old done 40k, I changed the cam belt at 10 years, new battery at 8 years, I think I changed the oil about 5 or 6 years ago as my mate gave me 5Lt oil. My car does get serviced as it's under warranty, also look after the Motorhome as it's expensive to repair if something does fail, the wife's car, I'm just hoping it will die so she has to get a new one, dam thing just keeps going on & on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-18 6:12 PM rupert123 - 2014-10-18 5:59 PM buy British and this is usually three years. On European vehicles the first 2 years is a manufacturers warranty the 3rd is normally a dealer insurance backed warranty this is the way Fiat work, and of course they charge you for it with higher prices and additional services that are not required in other countries, as they say ought for nought. (lol) What higher prices Lenny, the UK vans compare very well with the euro ones especially when you look at the standard specifications. What exactly are the additional services that are not required, Fiat requires a service every year on low mileage vehicles and the van makers usually require a damp check every year are you saying your van does not have these clauses under the warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions and servicing costs of part UK made vs wholly continental made vans, or who made what van 30 years ago, further this? These are old chestnuts in which opposing sides exaggerate claims to suit their prejudices, and add nothing of value that is relevant to the string. Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 rupert123 - 2014-10-19 11:09 AM lennyhb - 2014-10-18 6:12 PM rupert123 - 2014-10-18 5:59 PM buy British and this is usually three years. On European vehicles the first 2 years is a manufacturers warranty the 3rd is normally a dealer insurance backed warranty this is the way Fiat work, and of course they charge you for it with higher prices and additional services that are not required in other countries, as they say ought for nought. (lol) What higher prices Lenny, the UK vans compare very well with the euro ones especially when you look at the standard specifications. What exactly are the additional services that are not required, Fiat requires a service every year on low mileage vehicles and the van makers usually require a damp check every year are you saying your van does not have these clauses under the warranty? You pay thousands more for the van to start with. Only UK brought Fiats require a low mileage annual service no such requirement on European brought vans. UK vans require an expensive annual habitation check to keep the warranty, no such requirement with Hymer when brought in Europe (don't know about the UK). Yes annual damp check required Hymer UK price £180, I pay €60 (£48). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions and servicing costs of part UK made vs wholly continental made vans, or who made what van 30 years ago, further this? These are old chestnuts in which opposing sides exaggerate claims to suit their prejudices, and add nothing of value that is relevant to the string. Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Sorry Brian did my post replying to another of Henery's silly rants before seeing your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 A quick update.. I've located some al ko documents, they were stuck behind others in the Bailey bag :$ Nothing to learn from them so just learned from Bailey they themselves cover the chassis for 3 years, think I knew that anyway but with a new van there's bucket loads to read. And remember :D Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions and servicing costs of part UK made vs wholly continental made vans, or who made what van 30 years ago, further this? These are old chestnuts in which opposing sides exaggerate claims to suit their prejudices, and add nothing of value that is relevant to the string. Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Well said Brian, I keep trying to tell them that ;-) Seriously, I just wondered if anything is different in the Alko chassis that makes it require a different grease to the general purpose stuff required by other vehicle chassis. As far as I can see they all face the same sort of stresses. Or was there a design fault they blame on incorrect lubrication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 LordThornber - 2014-10-19 12:55 PM A quick update.. I've located some al ko documents, they were stuck behind others in the Bailey bag :$ Martyn I know what you mean These days, I spend a lot of time thinking about the hereafter . . . I go somewhere to get something, and then wonder what I'm "here after". :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-19 1:48 PM Or was there a design fault they blame on incorrect lubrication? Well, we all know what they would say if it failed under warranty and they found their recommended grease was not used. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-19 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions and servicing costs of part UK made vs wholly continental made vans, or who made what van 30 years ago, further this? These are old chestnuts in which opposing sides exaggerate claims to suit their prejudices, and add nothing of value that is relevant to the string. Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Well said Brian, I keep trying to tell them that ;-) Seriously, I just wondered if anything is different in the Alko chassis that makes it require a different grease to the general purpose stuff required by other vehicle chassis. As far as I can see they all face the same sort of stresses. Or was there a design fault they blame on incorrect lubrication? The recommended grease is widely available I've just bought some, and a Wanner grease gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Err, you were the one who started on about the warranty implications of the Alko rear axle. I have an alko chassis on my van and no where in the warranty does it mention it as a special case so is covered for three years by the maker of the van, Swift. I have no interest in the Alko warranty it does not concern me and wonder why you would, do euro vans exclude it from their warranty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 rupert123 - 2014-10-19 10:07 PM Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Err, you were the one who started on about the warranty implications of the Alko rear axle. I have an alko chassis on my van and no where in the warranty does it mention it as a special case so is covered for three years by the maker of the van, Swift. I have no interest in the Alko warranty it does not concern me and wonder why you would, do euro vans exclude it from their warranty Hrenry, if you're going to "snip" my posts when quoting them, please don't do so in a way that alters their meaning. What I actually said was "Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions and servicing costs of part UK made vs wholly continental made vans..............". There was no bickering over warranty conditions per se, only over the differences in warranties between so-called UK manufactured vans and continental manufactured ones, which is exactly what you were doing. So, please. Regarding what you call "Euro vans", the warranty conditions will vary from make to make, as with UK made vans. Regarding your van, it seems you are happy that your Al-Ko chassis is covered fully by Swift for three years. It is usual for warranties to be conditional on the product being used in accordance with its manufacturer's requirements, and Al-Ko stipulate greasing the rear axle pivots at least annually. If this is done as specified, your warranty should be secure. If not, I would anticipate rejection of a claim if you have rear axle trouble. It is that possibility which prompted me to raise the issue in the first place. It might be wise for you to check the maintenance recommendations for your van regarding the Al-Ko axle, in case they have been overlooked. It is possible that Swift has secured maintenance free bearings for their vans, but otherwise annual greasing appears a standard requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:30 PM rupert123 - 2014-10-19 10:07 PM Brian Kirby - 2014-10-19 11:31 AM Dearly beloved, my post was intended to draw to the attention of anyone with an Al-Ko chassis its servicing requirements, in case they may not have been aware of these. So, it's purpose was to give useful information to those possibly affected. Please, how does bickering over the warranty conditions Desist, please - or continue bickering elsewhere. :-) Err, you were the one who started on about the warranty implications of the Alko rear axle. I have an alko chassis on my van and no where in the warranty does it mention it as a special case so is covered for three years by the maker of the van, Swift. I have no interest in the Alko warranty it does not concern me and wonder why you would, do euro vans exclude it from their warranty It might be wise for you to check the maintenance recommendations for your van regarding the Al-Ko axle, in case they have been overlooked. It is possible that Swift has secured maintenance free bearings for their vans, but otherwise annual greasing appears a standard requirement. Sorry to snip your post once again Brian but as usual it is rather 'long winded'. The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. Their are many things on a van that require special attention if it is to remain in warranty so why worry about each individual item. Send it to an approved dealer, sometimes a problem to find one with euro built vans I admit, and let them worry about it. Ok some do not trust main dealers but if a van is under warranty it is best to use one. I certainly do not need to be checking what the dealer is doing, if indeed I could, or telling what to do, the responsibility is theirs, that is what I pay them for. If the van is out or warranty then no harm in reminding the servicing garage about the rear axle, some may not know but any half decent one will know about torsion bar rear suspension, it has been around for a very long time now and has always, to my knowledge required special attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Its a really easy job to do yourself, I did mine a few weeks back, you have to jack up the van one side at a time with your trolley jack, axle stand in, 5 stokes of the grease gun, repeat on the other side - takes 20 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:09 AM Sorry to snip your post once again Brian but as usual it is rather 'long winded'. The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. Their are many things on a van that require special attention if it is to remain in warranty so why worry about each individual item. Send it to an approved dealer, sometimes a problem to find one with euro built vans I admit, and let them worry about it. Ok some do not trust main dealers but if a van is under warranty it is best to use one. I certainly do not need to be checking what the dealer is doing, if indeed I could, or telling what to do, the responsibility is theirs, that is what I pay them for. If the van is out or warranty then no harm in reminding the servicing garage about the rear axle, some may not know but any half decent one will know about torsion bar rear suspension, it has been around for a very long time now and has always, to my knowledge required special attention. ...I think you're being somewhat naïve (possibly deliberately, god forbid ;-) ) The requirement for greasing of Al-Ko axles has been around for ages, as has also the oft-repeated advice to check that it actually gets done. I have seen numerous posts over the years advising that the servicing requirements for the axle often fall between two stools - being neither part of a manufacturer's standard vehicle service, nor part of the converter's annual inspection/service - and is therefore overlooked. If it doesn't get done, there is a possibility (albeit fairly remote) of failure, and I'd rather spend a couple of minutes properly ascertaining it's service status, than suffer the issues of a breakdown (and any subsequent argument about warranty). It certainly will not appear as part of a Fiat Ducato service schedule (though a good dealer might do it). Neither does it appear to be detailed in the current Swift motorhome handbook under maintenance, so it possibly won't be done as part of a "habitation" service. If it were me, simply enquiring whether it was/will be done as part of one or the other would be at the forefront of my mind. It wouldn't be for someone who didn't know about it, so a reminder every now and then (as per Brian's original post), is quite useful. On the matter of the Swift warranty, I'd be interested in your interpretation of who warrants the Al-Ko chassis - since Swift explicitly say that the base vehicle is warranted by Fiat (is the Al-Ko chassis part of the base vehicle?). If it were considered to be part of the conversion, then the exclusions on the warranty appear to mean you would only get a year's cover from Swift. Since there is reference in the Swift documentation to Al-Ko running its own warranty section, maybe its them? It's all as clear as mud! Worth (I think) just checking that it is being done. ;-) (Sorry to also be a bit long-winded :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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