Al-Ko chassis.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:09 AM...........The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. .........................

All well and good, Henry, for those whose vans can be fully serviced (conversion plus base vehicle services) in a "one stop" shop. However, not all motorhome dealerships can do base vehicle servicing, so what do you suggest for those whose dealers can't?

 

Since many base vehicle service centres no longer carry out any greasing, and since Al-Ko components do not form part of the base vehicle servicing schedule, the chances of a routine service (many now at two years) catching the need to grease the rear axle annually seem to me remote.

 

Remember, my post was not just for the benefit of Swift motorhome owners, but for anyone whose van has an Al-Ko chessis. I'm glad you're happy, but my interest was to put as many others, who may not have been as aware of the requirements as you, into a position of knowledge, so that they can ensure their vans are properly maintained.

[lennyhb]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:09 AM

 

The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. Their are many things on a van that require special attention if it is to remain in warranty so why worry about each individual item.

 

On your wallet be it Henery. It is well documented fact that dealers often miss greasing the axle, your view is very naive if they have missed it and your axle then fails outside the warranty it is you that will have to foot the bill and they ain't cheap.

 

Realistically the axle is unlikely to fail within the warranty period, even if it is not greased, unless you do very high mileages. The point of making sure it is greased every year is to insure against future problems.

[Brock]

Platts of Longton in Stoke on Trent is a Fiat Professional service centre and is able to determine a correct servicing schedule for Fiat motorhomes based on use. When I spoke to them today, the Service Manager said 90% of the AlKo based motorhomes it services will have the nipples greased. He recommends that customers ask to have it done so that it is added to the job sheet just to be sure. The nipples are greased without axle loading and with the correct grease so follows the AlKo manual.

 

My Hymer dealer will also grease the nipples if asked. Its Service Centre Manager said under EU legislation, AlKo cannot insist on using its own Service Centres but has the right to set the service schedule and specification for the grease used.

 

At the NEC on Saturday, an AlKo representative verbally told me that with an average mileage of 6,000 on reasonably good surfaces, the service interval could be increased to 18m or 24m without a significant increase in risk. However, high mileage and low mileage vehicles and anyone wanting to retain their warranty must follow the annual service schedule. Also, he was not advocating people did increase the service intervals.

 

When Brian has resolved this problem, I hope MMM give him room in the Technical pages so that it is brought to the attention of a wider audience.

 

[rupert123]

Robinhood - 2014-10-20 11:00 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:09 AM

 

Sorry to snip your post once again Brian but as usual it is rather 'long winded'. The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. Their are many things on a van that require special attention if it is to remain in warranty so why worry about each individual item. Send it to an approved dealer, sometimes a problem to find one with euro built vans I admit, and let them worry about it. Ok some do not trust main dealers but if a van is under warranty it is best to use one. I certainly do not need to be checking what the dealer is doing, if indeed I could, or telling what to do, the responsibility is theirs, that is what I pay them for. If the van is out or warranty then no harm in reminding the servicing garage about the rear axle, some may not know but any half decent one will know about torsion bar rear suspension, it has been around for a very long time now and has always, to my knowledge required special attention.

 

...I think you're being somewhat naïve (possibly deliberately, god forbid ;-) )

 

The requirement for greasing of Al-Ko axles has been around for ages, as has also the oft-repeated advice to check that it actually gets done.

 

I have seen numerous posts over the years advising that the servicing requirements for the axle often fall between two stools - being neither part of a manufacturer's standard vehicle service, nor part of the converter's annual inspection/service - and is therefore overlooked.

 

If it doesn't get done, there is a possibility (albeit fairly remote) of failure, and I'd rather spend a couple of minutes properly ascertaining it's service status, than suffer the issues of a breakdown (and any subsequent argument about warranty).

 

It certainly will not appear as part of a Fiat Ducato service schedule (though a good dealer might do it). Neither does it appear to be detailed in the current Swift motorhome handbook under maintenance, so it possibly won't be done as part of a "habitation" service.

 

If it were me, simply enquiring whether it was/will be done as part of one or the other would be at the forefront of my mind.

 

It wouldn't be for someone who didn't know about it, so a reminder every now and then (as per Brian's original post), is quite useful.

 

On the matter of the Swift warranty, I'd be interested in your interpretation of who warrants the Al-Ko chassis - since Swift explicitly say that the base vehicle is warranted by Fiat (is the Al-Ko chassis part of the base vehicle?). If it were considered to be part of the conversion, then the exclusions on the warranty appear to mean you would only get a year's cover from Swift.

 

Since there is reference in the Swift documentation to Al-Ko running its own warranty section, maybe its them?

 

It's all as clear as mud!

 

Worth (I think) just checking that it is being done. ;-)

 

(Sorry to also be a bit long-winded :D )

Good points Robin except any problems would not go via me to Swift/Fiat/Alko or anyone else but straight back to the dealer. I had an incident with my second new Swift back in 2008, the habitation step stopped working and the engine warning light came on around the same time. The dealer said they would sort out the step but I had to take the van to a Fiat dealer for the light. I told them not interested, they sold me the van, my contract was with them I would bring it in and expected them to sort it out. They did not argue but simply replaced the step and took the van to a local dealer to sort the warning light. My point is, as I said, who warranties what is not my problem the dealer has to sort it out and they know this. Am I being naïve, not really, do Brian and Lenny crawl under their vans after service to check if axle has been greased, most garages will wipe it clean anyway, how can they possibly know, perhaps they unscrew the oil filter to see if it has been changed? You either trust the garage or not, if not you are stuck with doing it yourself, my days of crawling around under vehicles are long gone perhaps theirs are not.

[Robinhood]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 3:47 PM

Good points Robin except any problems would not go via me to Swift/Fiat/Alko or anyone else but straight back to the dealer. snip

 

...who would have no legal responsibility to sort it out at anyone's cost but yours if any warranty maintenance conditions had not been met (which, along with the pure "mechanical" requirement is one of the tenets of Brian's first post).

 

As in the foregoing, unless greasing had been explicitly requested at service time, whoever did it (since it doesn't appear to be part of any service schedule) could avoid any responsibility for any failure, and AL-KO (who seem to be responsible for warranty of the chassis) could simply say their service requirements had not been met.

 

Whatever, it seems a long argument for something that, rather than putting one's head in the sand, can quite happily be handled by a couple of minutes conversation, and ensuring that the axle is properly lubricated at one or other of the service sessions.

 

(which I rather think was another of Brian's tenets). ;-)

[Guest Joe90]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 3:47 PM

 

Robinhood - 2014-10-20 11:00 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:09 AM

 

Sorry to snip your post once again Brian but as usual it is rather 'long winded'. The maintenance recommendations are of no interest to me, I have the van serviced by a Swift approved dealer so if work is not done correctly and problems occur as a result it will get thrown straight back at them. Their are many things on a van that require special attention if it is to remain in warranty so why worry about each individual item. Send it to an approved dealer, sometimes a problem to find one with euro built vans I admit, and let them worry about it. Ok some do not trust main dealers but if a van is under warranty it is best to use one. I certainly do not need to be checking what the dealer is doing, if indeed I could, or telling what to do, the responsibility is theirs, that is what I pay them for. If the van is out or warranty then no harm in reminding the servicing garage about the rear axle, some may not know but any half decent one will know about torsion bar rear suspension, it has been around for a very long time now and has always, to my knowledge required special attention.

 

...I think you're being somewhat naïve (possibly deliberately, god forbid ;-) )

 

The requirement for greasing of Al-Ko axles has been around for ages, as has also the oft-repeated advice to check that it actually gets done.

 

I have seen numerous posts over the years advising that the servicing requirements for the axle often fall between two stools - being neither part of a manufacturer's standard vehicle service, nor part of the converter's annual inspection/service - and is therefore overlooked.

 

If it doesn't get done, there is a possibility (albeit fairly remote) of failure, and I'd rather spend a couple of minutes properly ascertaining it's service status, than suffer the issues of a breakdown (and any subsequent argument about warranty).

 

It certainly will not appear as part of a Fiat Ducato service schedule (though a good dealer might do it). Neither does it appear to be detailed in the current Swift motorhome handbook under maintenance, so it possibly won't be done as part of a "habitation" service.

 

If it were me, simply enquiring whether it was/will be done as part of one or the other would be at the forefront of my mind.

 

It wouldn't be for someone who didn't know about it, so a reminder every now and then (as per Brian's original post), is quite useful.

 

On the matter of the Swift warranty, I'd be interested in your interpretation of who warrants the Al-Ko chassis - since Swift explicitly say that the base vehicle is warranted by Fiat (is the Al-Ko chassis part of the base vehicle?). If it were considered to be part of the conversion, then the exclusions on the warranty appear to mean you would only get a year's cover from Swift.

 

Since there is reference in the Swift documentation to Al-Ko running its own warranty section, maybe its them?

 

It's all as clear as mud!

 

Worth (I think) just checking that it is being done. ;-)

 

(Sorry to also be a bit long-winded :D )

Good points Robin except any problems would not go via me to Swift/Fiat/Alko or anyone else but straight back to the dealer. I had an incident with my second new Swift back in 2008, the habitation step stopped working and the engine warning light came on around the same time. The dealer said they would sort out the step but I had to take the van to a Fiat dealer for the light. I told them not interested, they sold me the van, my contract was with them I would bring it in and expected them to sort it out. They did not argue but simply replaced the step and took the van to a local dealer to sort the warning light. My point is, as I said, who warranties what is not my problem the dealer has to sort it out and they know this. Am I being naïve, not really, do Brian and Lenny crawl under their vans after service to check if axle has been greased, most garages will wipe it clean anyway, how can they possibly know, perhaps they unscrew the oil filter to see if it has been changed? You either trust the garage or not, if not you are stuck with doing it yourself, my days of crawling around under vehicles are long gone perhaps theirs are not.

 

I've lost count of the garages I've trusted over the years, if ever I find one I can really trust I'll shout it from the rooftops.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 3:47 PM..................My point is, as I said, who warranties what is not my problem the dealer has to sort it out and they know this. Am I being naïve, not really, do Brian and Lenny crawl under their vans after service to check if axle has been greased, most garages will wipe it clean anyway, how can they possibly know, perhaps they unscrew the oil filter to see if it has been changed? You either trust the garage or not, if not you are stuck with doing it yourself, my days of crawling around under vehicles are long gone perhaps theirs are not.

Dear Henry, taking an argument to the level of the absurd doesn't prove the point! :-)

 

No, I can say with certainty that I shall not be crawling under the vehicle to inspect the grease nipples - unless I decide to grease it myself and risk an argument over proof.

 

The point is that during the warranty period (the converter's warranty, not the base vehicle warranty) you need evidence that the greasing was done. With your van I think this may be three years? You need either an invoice saying that, or a signed service stamp in the Al-Ko handbook stating the mileage and date at which the work was done. This was confirmed to me today by Al-Ko. Merely having had the vehicle "serviced" will not cut the mustard, unless the axle greasing is specifically referred to. However, this is only relevant to maintaining the warranty in force.

 

Oddly, despite stating that some vans are supplied on Al-Ko chassis, I couldn't find any mention of a service requirement for it in the Swift owner's handbook. However, there clearly is one, so it seems Swift has either omitted it, or they are relying on owners spotting it in the Al-Ko handbook that should have been part of the documentation supplied with the vehicle. As I suggested, Henry, you may wish to check.

 

It is fairly unlikely a problem with the axle would arise during your ownership of the van, but if it is not maintained correctly now it may well store up expensive trouble for a subsequent owner.

[Muswell]

Best buy a PVC.

[Guest Joe90]

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

[747]

Good thread Brian. :D

 

When you phone AlKo, could you ask them what the maintenance schedule is for the type that does NOT have grease nipples fitted ..... like my Tag axle van. :-D

 

Thanks.

[Guest Joe90]

747 - 2014-10-20 8:19 PM

 

Good thread Brian. :D

 

When you phone AlKo, could you ask them what the maintenance schedule is for the type that does NOT have grease nipples fitted ..... like my Tag axle van. :-D

 

Thanks.

 

Maintenance free,

 

but you'll probably hear the bang when the non replaceable rubberised elements perish. ;-)

 

This is due to Hydrolysis

 

Acid–base-catalyzed hydrolyses are very common; one example is the hydrolysis of amides or esters. Their hydrolysis occurs when the nucleophile (a nucleus-seeking agent, e.g., water or hydroxyl ion) attacks the carbon of the carbonyl group of the ester or amide. In an aqueous base, hydroxyl ions are better nucleophiles than dipoles such as water. In acid, the carbonyl group becomes protonated, and this leads to a much easier nucleophilic attack

 

[lennyhb]

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 7:42 PM

 

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

 

Couldn't be more stupid than one of his posts ----or could it. :D

[rupert123]

lennyhb - 2014-10-20 9:25 PM

 

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 7:42 PM

 

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

 

Couldn't be more stupid than one of his posts ----or could it. :D

Now you sound like the dear departed Judge Lenny, still you are an amateur in the motor business so I forgive you.

[747]

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 9:22 PM

 

747 - 2014-10-20 8:19 PM

 

Good thread Brian. :D

 

When you phone AlKo, could you ask them what the maintenance schedule is for the type that does NOT have grease nipples fitted ..... like my Tag axle van. :-D

 

Thanks.

 

Maintenance free,

 

but you'll probably hear the bang when the non replaceable rubberised elements perish. ;-)

 

This is due to Hydrolysis

 

Acid–base-catalyzed hydrolyses are very common; one example is the hydrolysis of amides or esters. Their hydrolysis occurs when the nucleophile (a nucleus-seeking agent, e.g., water or hydroxyl ion) attacks the carbon of the carbonyl group of the ester or amide. In an aqueous base, hydroxyl ions are better nucleophiles than dipoles such as water. In acid, the carbonyl group becomes protonated, and this leads to a much easier nucleophilic attack

 

I could not have put it better myself. ;-)

[lennyhb]

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:11 PM

 

lennyhb - 2014-10-20 9:25 PM

 

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 7:42 PM

 

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

 

Couldn't be more stupid than one of his posts ----or could it. :D

Now you sound like the dear departed Judge Lenny, still you are an amateur in the motor business so I forgive you.

 

Flattery wont work on me Henry (lol)

[rupert123]

lennyhb - 2014-10-21 12:11 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:11 PM

 

lennyhb - 2014-10-20 9:25 PM

 

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 7:42 PM

 

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

 

Couldn't be more stupid than one of his posts ----or could it. :D

Now you sound like the dear departed Judge Lenny, still you are an amateur in the motor business so I forgive you.

.

Flattery wont work on me Henry (lol)

Oops, just noted today he is back.

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2014-10-20 8:19 PM

 

Good thread Brian. :D

 

When you phone AlKo, could you ask them what the maintenance schedule is for the type that does NOT have grease nipples fitted ..... like my Tag axle van. :-D

 

Thanks.

Well, yes Jim. Though it is degenerating! :-D

 

However, jut just in case anyone who can't find the grease nipples on their Al-Ko rear axle is worried, if there are no nipples, there is no need for greasing. This applies also to axles fitted with Al-Ko "Air Premium" air suspension.

[Guest Joe90]

rupert123 - 2014-10-21 10:34 AM

 

lennyhb - 2014-10-21 12:11 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-10-20 10:11 PM

 

lennyhb - 2014-10-20 9:25 PM

 

Joe90 - 2014-10-20 7:42 PM

 

Funny, I was going to suggest that to Rupert123 as well, I'd bet he'd love one.

 

Couldn't be more stupid than one of his posts ----or could it. :D

Now you sound like the dear departed Judge Lenny, still you are an amateur in the motor business so I forgive you.

.

Flattery wont work on me Henry (lol)

Oops, just noted today he is back.

 

Obsessive compulsion disorder.......................can't stop promoting all things German

[747]

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-21 11:29 AM

 

747 - 2014-10-20 8:19 PM

 

Good thread Brian. :D

 

When you phone AlKo, could you ask them what the maintenance schedule is for the type that does NOT have grease nipples fitted ..... like my Tag axle van. :-D

 

Thanks.

Well, yes Jim. Though it is degenerating! :-D

 

However, jut just in case anyone who can't find the grease nipples on their Al-Ko rear axle is worried, if there are no nipples, there is no need for greasing. This applies also to axles fitted with Al-Ko "Air Premium" air suspension.

 

Much appreciated Brian. :D

 

It is so refreshing to get a sensible reply to a question these days. ;-)

[rolandrat]

Can anyone say that they have ever had an Alko suspension axle fail on their motorhome? If so how old was it and what was the Mileage. I know of a friend who had one fail on his caravan and because it was under warranty was changed no quibble. Another friends motorhome suspension started to sag quite badly which resulted in a complete new axle being fitted at a cost of over £2000 but this was on a coachbuilt that was mounted on an ex ambulance chassis that had done many miles in service. I would imagine that failure could happen if badly abused by excessive overloading or curbing. Apart from that they seem to be trouble free.

[Frank McAuley]

Brian Kirby - 2014-10-17 5:41 PM

Maybe I've missed it but did you obtain deatails re the grease which is now recommended and available please?

Many will know, but a few may not............... :-D

 

If your motorhome has an Al-Ko chassis (Lenny and Martyn, pay attention please! :-)), the Al-KO rear axle/s have their own maintenance schedule. There should be (have been) an Al-Ko booklet with your van that explains the maintenance requirement, but it seems it is not that widely understood. However, maintenance in accordance with the schedule is a pre-requisite for maintaining the Al-Ko warranty.

 

The axle is likely to have two grease nipples, one each end, adjacent to the chassis members, on the underside of the axle. These must be greased every 20,000km, OR ANNUALLY - WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. Few will do 20,000km (12,500 miles) a year, so the annual requirement will apply for most owners.

 

This creates something of a bind, as the current Fiat servicing schedules are every two years. So, in addition, one annual axle service is required just for two grease nipples!

 

There is a specific requirement for the axle to be in a no-load condition (i.e. jacked up, or on a vehicle lift) when being greased. The specified grease is Shell Retinax LX2 (since superceded by Shell Gadus S3 V220C 2). This is primarily a high pressure, water resistant grease, not readily available in small quantities - so not DIY friendly. Further, the maintenance schedule implies that a "Specialist Workshop" should do the work, so again not DIY friendly.

 

I shall contact Al-Ko Monday (missed them today, they knock-off at 13:00 Fridays!) on alternative greases, because specifying by maker rather then by type is unhelpful, and I suspect few motorhome service centres that have been greasing these points to date will have used the specified stuff.

 

I will also raise with them the implied requirement for an Al-Ko "Specialist Workshop" to do this work, as no regular base vehicle service centres (i.e. Fiat, Peugeot etc) are on Al-Ko's list, many being only caravan dealerships unequipped to handle motorhomes. One Al-Ko listed motorhome specialist workshop I did contact was unaware that the axle should be unladen when being greased, and did not know of the specified grease.

 

Finally, don't assume that a regular service for the base vehicle, whoever does it, will necessarily include greasing (with whatever!) these nipples. Certainly Fiat service centres are very unlikely to do so, unless it is specifically requested, because the standard Ducato service schedule doesn't call for rear axle greasing and because they won't, as a rule, touch anything that is not Fiat. I assume much the same would be also true for Peugeot/Citroen versions.

 

I shall also ask Al-Ko the duration of warranty as, although the booklet is clear enough on the pre-requisites for maintaining it, it is oddly silent on this point. I'll post again with whatever information I can glean. Hope I haven't spoilt anyone's evening! :-)

[Brian Kirby]

rolandrat - 2014-10-21 4:15 PM

 

Can anyone say that they have ever had an Alko suspension axle fail on their motorhome? If so how old was it and what was the Mileage. I know of a friend who had one fail on his caravan and because it was under warranty was changed no quibble. Another friends motorhome suspension started to sag quite badly which resulted in a complete new axle being fitted at a cost of over £2000 but this was on a coachbuilt that was mounted on an ex ambulance chassis that had done many miles in service. I would imagine that failure could happen if badly abused by excessive overloading or curbing. Apart from that they seem to be trouble free.

Agreed, they are generally trouble free. There were some mentions of seizure, I think on MHF. If you "Google" Al-Ko axle grease you should pull them up. I found mentions of various grease related problems on various forums back to 2005. The key to a long and happy life seems to be annual greasing, and not too much of it. :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Frank McAuley - 2014-10-21 5:20 PM

Maybe I've missed it but did you obtain deatails re the grease which is now recommended and available please?

Update coming shortly Frank, and no, you haven't missed it. :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Update on following contacts with Al-Ko UK.

 

First, the grease. Al-Ko have confirmed that any high melting point lithium based grease can be used. The main criterion is that it should be to NLGI (National Lubricating Grease Institute) consistency number (or grade) 2. This ensures adequate pressure resistance. The bearings are plain shell bearings, which is why the axle (or at least the wheel on the side being lubricated) should be free of load when being greased. This ensures the grease will travel freely around the bearing during application. It is not recommended that air-line type grease guns are used, as there is too little control over quantity. 6/7 strokes on a manual gun each side is ideal. There are two bearings each side, spaced apart, and the grease is injected into the space between them, so both get greased at the same time. As new grease is added, old grease is expelled beyond the innermost bearing into the axle tube. There is a seal on the outside of the outermost bearing, mainly to protect from water etc. If too much grease is injected it accumulates in the tube, eventually filling it, when adding new will tend to blow the outer seal, allowing water etc in. So, regular greasing is necessary, but not too much.

 

The reference in the Al-Ko handbook to specialist workshops is a bit of a red herring. Most of the firms listed as specialist workshops on Al-Ko's website are trailer caravan dealers, and it was acknowledged that few have facilities for motorhomes. It was confirmed that any competent garage, usually a commercial vehicles specialist, can do the work, with the proviso that they should ideally use only manual guns as above. The only drawbacks to DIY are the lack of proof during the warranty period, and the need to get under the van - plus the need to ensure it is safely and securely supported while doing so!

 

On the duration of the warranty, Al-Ko said this was the same as for the converter's warranty. But note that this should not be assumed to equate to the base vehicle warranty, and should not be confused with the water ingress warranty. It refers only to the general warranty from the motorhome manufacturer: usually between one and three years.

[lennyhb]

Thanks Brian I'll probably get mine done at Lancing Commercial as I have great faith in them, I have noticed they are now an approved Motorhome workshop.