rolandrat Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 It seems that some Fiat and Peugeot van conversions are now being fitted with 16 inch wheels instead of the standard 15 inch wheels which to me has high lighted a problem if you get a flat tyre and the spare has to be fitted. I've always done a dummy run to check that the spare wheel can be accessed without incurring any difficulty and with 15 inch wheels it's straight forward as the releasing bar and socket fits the lowering mechanism no problem. With 16 inch wheels fitted it covers the lowering mechanism and the bar and socket won't fit. It seems an oversight on the designers part and needs the mechanism moving further back along the chassis. If the breakdown truck is summonsed they will have to jack it up first to remove the wheel then the spare will be able to be lowered. I've always removed the spare first as a safety precaution just in case it slips off the jack with me underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Here's a tip when changing wheel on any vehicle, remove wheel from hub and immediately place it under a suitable part of vehicle (chassis, axle, whatever) if the vehicle then falls off the jack the wheel under will keep it several inches off the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 The Fiat Ducato van conversion needs jacking quite high to be able to release the wheel from its mounting, more so if a tow bar is fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Well you've got me intrigued, I'll have to have a good look at mine, like all Maxi chassis it has 16" wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The factory option available with the latest X290 Ducato to specify 16” wheels for ‘chassis’ where 15” wheels are the standard specification was discussed here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Michelin-Agilis-camping-anyone-had-them-fitted-/36446/#M439466 I’m a mite surprised that the lowering/raising mechanism used on X250 panel-vans would be differently positioned for Maxi-chassis versions (with 16” wheels as standard) as opposed to non-Maxi chassis (with 15” wheels as standard). I would have thought that the mechanism would be positioned with 16” wheels considered as the norm as this should then be OK for 15” wheels. As 16” wheels were not a factory option for non-Maxi X250 chassis, it may be that (as rolandrat observes) the spare-wheel mechanism was located differently. As 16” wheels are now an X290 non-Maxi-chassis factory option, with any luck this will have been taken into account when the X290 was designed. Comparing an X250 with 15” wheels and concluding that there would be a problem with changing a wheel if 16” wheels were fitted, does not automatically mean that there would be a problem if the 16” wheel factory option were chosen for X290 panel-vans that would come as standard with 15” wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 There's an interesting point here, because looking at the new chassis at the NEC I assumed that the x290 was just a facelift with little changed under the skin. Most x250's came without a spare wheel, to save weight, improve the (fictitious) emissions and increase the nominal payload I assume. When I bought a fiat spare wheel holder I had to specify 15" or 16" and also steel or alloy wheel, as I guess each is different. If the "light" chassis has 16" wheels again I assume that lower profile tyres would be fitted, so it the overall size would be the same and should not foul the winder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Unfortunately that's not the case, the tyres aren't low profile and as I've mentioned the lowering and raising mechanism is completely behind the o/s rear wheel if fitted with 16 inch wheels. Another thing you will notice is the lack of mud flaps due to the closeness of the wheel arches. 15 inch fitments have space for mud flaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Is this on a x2/50 or x2/90? on a x2/50 there is plenty of room for mudflaps with 16" wheels, I've not taken much notice of rear arches on x2/90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 colin - 2014-10-28 7:33 PM Is this on a x2/50 or x2/90? on a x2/50 there is plenty of room for mudflaps with 16" wheels, I've not taken much notice of rear arches on x2/90. I do wonder whether the wheel-arches are bigger on the body designed to take the 16 inch wheels as standard (i.e. the Maxi). It's also possible the front and rear bumper geometry is different. There certainly is a difference in construction (for both the X250 and X290) in that the Maxi has "bumper plastic" spats to the wheel-arches, both front and rear, whereas the lesser van has simply body-coloured (presumably) metal arches. A small amount of difference in clearance would make the wheel release mechanism for a 16" wheel more accessible. (and the difference in construction probably accounts for the fact that there is no factory option for a body-colour bumper on the Maxi.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I suppose we must consider there are two Maxi's, LWB and XLWB, although the XLWB like ours is an extension behind the rear axle, I know this can cause problems with mudflaps and this is due to the different plastic panels, the result of which is the mudflaps sit too low and require trimming to clear kerbs when reversing up to them. I'm not aware that the LWB Maxi is any different to the lighter LWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 It's true, the standard rear mudflaps are to low and can be pulled off when reversing up against high kerbs. I cut mine in half and rejoined them an inch and a half higher using stailess steel locking nuts and bolts. I can only highlight IH campers with 16 inch wheels fitted and the lowering and raising mechanism is definitely obscured whether it's a 6 or 6.3 metre body. I'm calling at the factory tomorrow for a service so I'll take a very close look at the latest models and see if any mods have been carried out to improve access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 These are the wheel-rim and tyre-size options as specified in Fiat Owner Handbooks for, respectively, Euro 5 X250 Ducatos and the latest X290. X250 DUCATO (EXCEPT RECREATIONAL) 6Jx15'' - H2 215/70 R15C 109/107S 225/70 R15C 112/105S X250 DUCATO (RECREATIONAL) 6Jx15'' - H2 215/70 R15CP 109/107Q X250 DUCATO MAXI (EXCEPT RECREATIONAL) 6Jx16'' - H2 215/75 R16C 116/114R 225/75 R16C 118/116R X250 DUCATO MAXI (RECREATIONAL) 6Jx16'' - H2 225/75 R16CP 116/114Q ........................................................................................ X290 DUCATO (EXCEPT RECREATIONAL) 6Jx15'' - H2 215/70 R15C 109/107S 225/70 R15C 112/105S 6Jx16'' - H2 215/75 R16C 116/114R (*) 225/75 R16C 118/116R (*) X290 DUCATO (RECREATIONAL) 6Jx15'' - H2 215/70 R15CP 109/107Q 6Jx16'' - H2 225/75 R16CP 116/114Q X290 DUCATO MAXI (EXCEPT RECREATIONAL) 6Jx16'' - H2 215/75 R16C 116/114R 225/75 R16C 118/116R X290 DUCATO MAXI (RECREATIONAL) 6Jx16'' - H2 225/75 R16CP 116/114Q 225/75 R16CP 118R Non-Maxi chassis X290s - both the ‘non-recreational’ and ‘recreational’ versions - gain a 16” wheel option, with non-recreational chassis having the choice of 215/75 R16C or 225/75 R16C tyres, and recreational chassis having 225/75 R16CP tyres. For Maxi-chassis X290s, the only change is that the 225/75 R16CP tyre-size that was standard on the equivalent X250 ‘recreational’ chassis can now have a higher load index. The advice in the X290 handbook regarding wheel changing seems to be the same as in the X250 handbook. I note that, for X290s and X250s, alloy wheels need to be treated differently to steel ones when it comes to fitting them on to lowering/raising mechanism, but there’s no mention that changing a wheel on a non-Maxi X290 chassis with 16” wheels demands a different procedure (or different tools) compared to a non-Maxi chassis X290 with 15” wheels. This still leaves the question about the significant increase (some 9%) of a non-Maxi X290 motorhome’s overall gearing if the standard 15” wheels with 215/70 R15CP tyres are replaced by the optional 16” wheels with 225/75 R16CP tyres. I suppose it’s possible that the 16”-wheel factory option is combined with a Maxi-chassis gearbox but, if that’s what happens, I’ve not seen this mentioned anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 It isn't just the wheels that are bigger (16") on the X2/50 Maxi compared to the X2/50 standard (15"). The hubs and brake discs are bigger too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Peter James - 2014-10-29 8:54 AM It isn't just the wheels that are bigger (16") on the X2/50 Maxi compared to the X2/50 standard (15"). The hubs and brake discs are bigger too. Sure, and unless Fiat has altered the specification of the hubs of X290 Ducatos, it will continue to be impossible to fit a wheel (whether 15” or 16” diameter) suitable for a non-Maxi chassis on to a Maxi-chassis vehicle, or to fit a 16” wheel suitable for a Maxi-chassis X290 on to a non-Maxi chassis version. The X250 wheel variation is described in some detail here http://whichtyres.com/2012/03/which-fiat-ducato-motorhome-wheels/ There is the (probably remote) possiblity that Fiat has standardised on hub-design for the X290 to allow 16” wheels to be interchangeable across ‘light’ or 'heavy’ chassis, though (even in the unlikely event of that being so) it probably wouldn’t be possible to put 15” wheels on a ‘heavy’ X290. Dunno - the Fiat parts-list should indicate which X290 wheel can fit on which X290 chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 O.K. I think I see the problem now, I knew I had no problem on my Maxi but being quite a while since I checked the lowering mech had forgotten exactly where it was. The first photo shows my set up, you can see it's nowhere near the wheel arch. The second photo shows the manual, this gives the lowering mech in the wheel arch, if as you say it's covered by wheel, I can see why you need to jack up quite high. Also if changing a front wheel you would need to first jack up rear to release wheel, then jack up front, then if you haven't got room inside, jack up rear again to stow wheel, what a fag. p.s. I should add, that if you look at fig167 it shows adaptor hole (A) and top shock mount, on our van the 16" wheel/tyre covers the shock mount, so I can see it would most like also cover the adaptor hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I suspect the position of your mechanism (to the rear of the spring-hanger) is because you have the XLWB van, and I think the spare is in the same relative position to the rear of the van as it is in the LWB (on which, the mechanism will be forward of the spring-hanger, and in the wheel arch). (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-11-02 8:17 PM I suspect the position of your mechanism (to the rear of the spring-hanger) is because you have the XLWB van, and I think the spare is in the same relative position to the rear of the van as it is in the LWB (on which, the mechanism will be forward of the spring-hanger, and in the wheel arch). (?) You may be right, I didn't think to measure that as on our van where the manual show the adaptor hole there is an additional deeper piece of chassis which is probably needed to support the larger rear overhang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Owner Handbooks are downloadable from the Fiat website for Ducato X250 Euro 4 and Euro 5, and for the current X290 Euro 5+. The “REPLACING A WHEEL” section in each handbook reveals a minor change in the design of the spare-wheel lowering/raising mechanism used on Euro 4 X250s and on the later X250/X290 vehicles, but all sections refer to access to the lowering/raising mechanism being gained through the vehicle’s right rear wheel-arch. The drawing (Fig 167 in the Euro 5 X250 Handbook) mentioned by colin is repeated in the X290 Handbook with similar procedural instructions being provided. However, the equivalent drawings in the Euro 4 X250 Handbook show the lowering/raising mechanism in a different position, not within the wheel-arch. In fact, one drawing looks much like colin’s photo, with the lowering/raising mechanism alongside and to the right of the spare-wheel. There’s also a drawing in the Euro 4 document (but not present in the other Handbooks) depicting what’s clearly the right-rear of a 'chassis-cab’ chassis and the lowering/raising mechanism is shown in the same position - directly behind the right rear wheel. Ford Transits also have a spare-wheel lowering/raising mechanism with the spare-wheel suspended from a cable and with the mechanism operated remotely by a ‘winder'. The Ford Transit handook offers generic advice on wheel-changing, but it soon becomes evident that the exact position of the winder on the chassis can vary depending on the particular chassis that a Transit has. This seems to be the case here, with the placement of the winder on colin’s Maxi-chassis- based Globecar (with 16” wheels as standard) differing from rolandrat’s panel-van-conversion (with 15” wheels) and what’s shown in the X250 handbook drawings. As I mentioned in another forum-thread, what would seemingly be a simple buyer choice (opting for Fiat 16” alloy wheels for an X290-based motorhome that uses a non-Maxi chassis having 15” wheels as standard) raises questions about speedometer recalibration and overall gearing. Unless Fiat has now standardised on the position of the spare-wheel ‘winder’ on panel-vans being where it is on colin’s Globecar, it would appear that (as rolandrat originally highlighted) gaining access to the winder when the 16” wheel option is selected also needs to be considered. I’m certain that Fiat designers would have been fully aware of the implications of the 16” wheel option for non-Maxi X290s and made the necessary allowances, and that there’s absolutely no need for mere mortals like ourselves to be concerned about such technicalities. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I had a look around our local dealer today who has about a dozen or X290 conversions in stock now. Amongst the expected results i.e. vans on the light chassis with 15" steel wheels and vans on the heavy chassis with 16" steel wheels were a couple of surprising anomalies: 2 light chassis vans sitting on 16" STEEL wheels shod with 225/75-R16 tyres. I checked the plates on the slam panel and they were both 3500Kg and subsequently have downloaded the brochure to confirm that they are on the light version of the chassis. Both vans looked to be sitting way too high off the ground compared to the adjacent 15"/light and 16"/heavy versions. I'm really confused now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 16" steel wheels are a factory option on the light chassis (a cheaper one than 16" alloys). The 225/75 tyres are a factory option on 16" wheels. Still seems like an odd combination on a light chassis though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 As I said in another forum thread, opting for 16” wheels with 225/75 R16 tyres for an X290 that would otherwise have 15” wheels with 215/70 R15 tyres would raise the vehicle by about 45mm. Other than increasing ground clearance, I also can’t see what obvious benefit opting for a larger diameter steel wheel/bigger tyre combination would have for a ‘light’ X290 chassis. I would have thought that, unless the two vehicles Steve mentioned as having 16” steel wheels also had beefed-up springs, they ought not to have looked any higher off the ground than ‘heavy’ X290 chassis with 16” wheels and big tyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-11-09 5:38 PM I would have thought that, unless the two vehicles Steve mentioned as having 16” steel wheels also had beefed-up springs, they ought not to have looked any higher off the ground than ‘heavy’ X290 chassis with 16” wheels and big tyres. I think that the 15"/light and the 16"heavy/Maxi actually have the same ride height; the Maxi's different suspension components (rear beam axle, front struts, plus front bearing carrier perhaps) compensate for the height gained from the larger wheels. Having owned and worked extensively under both (in X2/50 guise) I'd say that they sit at the same height. The 16" wheels on the light chassis do raise the ride height visibly though; they look more than a little odd, like a boy racer's Ducato on steroids. BTW all 2015 model year Autotrail Trackers and Apaches on the light chassis are shod with 225/75-R16 while the Imala range on the very same chassis comes with 215/70-R15. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, has been done regarding gearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Steve928 - 2014-11-10 4:48 PM I think that the 15"/light and the 16"heavy/Maxi actually have the same ride height; ........Fiat data for the X290 in "standard" format shows both loading and overall height as 15mm higher for the Maxi over and above the "light" chassis (for a similar configuration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 So.....are the hubs on the light chassis with 16" changed from standard, or the are the wheels different from those on the maxi so that they fit the standard hubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I queried in my postings of October 29 whether there’s been an X290 hub design-change, or a gearing change when the 16” wheel option is selected for ‘light’ X290 chassis (as Steve88 mentions). When a range of wheel sizes is offered to a car buyer, it’s normally the case that the tyre’s aspect-ratio reduces as the wheel diameter increases. Consequently, there’s no need for the car manufacturer to alter the vehicle’s gearing or recalibrate instruments that measure speed and distance. When 16” wheels are fitted to ‘light’ Ducato X290 chassis, the tyres chosen for those wheels do not have a lower aspect-ratio. On ‘light’ X290 chassis destined to be converted into motorhomes, tyres that were originally 215/70 R15CP size with 15” wheels are replaced by 225/75 R16CP tyres when the 16” wheel option is selected. The ramifications of this, apparently simple, change are that - if nothing else is done - the vehicle’s overall gearing will increase by around 9% and its speed/distance measuring equipment will be similarly affected. The 16” alloy-wheel options in the X290 technical specification have different reference numbers for non-Maxi or Maxi chassis, which strongly suggests that the wheels themselves are different and, logically, this will be because the X250 hub-designs have been carried over to the X290. Although it’s been known since May 2014 that 16” wheels would be an option for X290 ‘light’ chassis, I’ve read nothing anywhere to suggest that Fiat alters an X290’s basic specifiication regarding gear ratios if the 16” wheel option is chosen, although the consequences of not doing so should be plain. It’s not necessarily just a matter of using a ‘Maxi’ gearbox instead either, as the ‘light’ X290 is available in LHD format with a 2-litre motor and 5-speed gearbox and (assuming the 16” wheel option can be specified for such vehicles) that motor/transmission combination has no Maxi-gearbox alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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