Newbie

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, I agree with all warnings above..in a previous van I discovered a"small damp patch" and on investigation it was wet and rotten all along offside. Quotes for repair ranged from 3000 to 5500 and both conditional on being amended upwards should opening up prove the problem worse than could be seen.

 

fortunately I was able to persuade dealer to apply "warranty"and agree to fix it..

having let him "fix"it, the result was not done to my satisfaction by his handyman, and rather than have a lengthy dispute, I bit the bullet, took a hit financially and disposed of it through the trade. ?

 

my advice to you is avoid damp like the plague unless you go to a professional repair company, not your dealers workshop, but be prepared for a big bill..I doubt if the vendor will stand the cost, or if he does, he will almost certainly up the asking price..

 

be sensible, heed the warnings,

 

tonyg3nwl.

[Tracker]

Or offer to buy it as is at a huge discount, try and store it under cover and make sure that you trade it in during a dry spell when you come to sell - you wouldn't be the first - or the last?

[Brian Kirby]

I note the GVW is 3,850kg. I assume your driving licence covers this?

 

I think you originally asked your question because you were not quite sure whether you should follow your heart or your head. :-) I think we've all been trying to give you a gentle steer away.

 

It seems to have been a popular layout, and there seem to be a few around. It also seems that they had a bit of a reputation for water ingress between the cab and the front windows, probably below where the luton roof sweeps down to meet the main roof. CI are Italian, and rain and damp are not so common in Italy as in UK.

 

You are right that once repaired it should not leak again in the same place. But, that is no guarantee that it won't leak elsewhere, or that it will next leak within the guarantee period. It may, it may not, or it may never leak again. So, I'll tell you why I think future leakage more likely than not.

 

The basic structure is that walls are made with a wooden framework with (usually) expanded polystyrene (EPS) infill between the frames. With CI, the framework is clad externally with, I think, GRP sheets, and internally with either thin ply or MDF. The roof is of generally similar construction, but with some GRP moulded parts around the luton. There will be joints where wall frames meet each other at the rear, where the roof meets the tops of the wall frames, and where the GRP mouldings meet the roof and walls. These joints tend to be simple butt or lap joints held together by screwing. Shaped aluminium extrusions are then screwed over the frame joints, usually with PVC strips covering the screw heads. The butt joints and the various aluminium extrusions are bedded in sealant, on which they rely to make them waterproof. Because the materials differ, their rates of expansion also differ, and motorhomes are subject to everything from full sun to winter frost. Sealants age, the better ones less than the inferior ones, but few motorhome manufacturers use the sealants in an ideal way, leaving them more prone to fatigue failures than would be the case on buildings. Add to this that the sealants are not applied by robots but by hand, so the quality and consistency of application will inevitably vary from place to place. So, you now have a 7 year old sealant, applied in a non-ideal way, by hand, that has already failed somewhere. Impossible to say more on this, because the location of the leak is unknown.

 

However, once into the structure the water will travel by capillary attraction under the influence of gravity. So mainly down, but with considerable sideways spread. The EPS is water permeable, as is the timber which will also swell as it becomes damp. The leak will probably have originated at only one point, but is unlikely to have been detected until it has soaked through the internal wallboard. So, the wooden framework behind the wallboard is liable to have been gradually getting wet for some time, possibly several seasons. Damp wood in closed spaces creates the ideal conditions for wood rot. If the frames on this van have begun rotting any local furniture will have to be removed, areas of wallboard removed, the rotten timber cut out and replaced, the whole allowed to dry out, new wallboard installed and finished internally, and the furniture put back. The cost of the materials is peanuts, but the labour costs are not. Such repairs, while possible, are very tme consuming and the cost can run to several thousands of pounds. To prevent a reocurrance, the point of entry must be found, the offending joint/cover strip removed, all the old sealant cleaned off, and the joint re-sealed with the cover strip re-bedded on new sealant, and re-fixed.

 

I'm not trying to predict the scenario for "your" van: it is just a description of a fairly typical joint failure. What I'm trying to do is illustrate the risk. So, yes, you are right, all vans of that period built in that way (i.e. most of them) carry the same potential risk from this type of failure. However, it is not the case that all vans of that period have the same propensity to leak, because some were built with stricter quality controls than others, using higher quality sealants, some even incorporating better designed joints. So, you could reduce the risk by targeting vans with a better reputation for ingress avoidance. You might start that search by looking for vans that originally had a five or six years warranty against ingress, which I don't think CI offered. Hope this helps to explain why we are urging caution.

[gocro]

As he's selling on behalf of a third party, he is asking them to foot the bill, it seems that your purchase will not be from the dealer but from the van's owner, big trouble for any redress down the line. You are in fact buying off an individual so may have few consumer rights, the very reason you are using a dealer in the first place.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Not necessarily Gordon, The OP said the dealer is offering a guarantee with the van. The van may be on a sale or return basis under which the dealer doesn't formally pay the seller until a buyer is found. That minimises the dealer's risk until a deal is signed, when the van passes to the dealer and almost simultaneously to the buyer, limiting the dealer's costs to advertising, cleaning and insuring it while on his premises. Because the dealer carries less risk, and doesn't have to stump up cash "up-front", the seller usually gets a better porice than with PX. But it has its risks for the seller if the dealer goes out of business, so the agreement needs careful drafting. That apart, the arrangement can work well to the advanatge of all concerned. It sounds a bit like one of these.

[Jonboymentalhealth]

I've spoke to the dealer who said he is still waiting to hear from owner, he said the damp they found was low down and all the external parts would need removing and rescaling quoting approximately 60 hours of labour but no way of knowing for sure, I'm now starting to agree with your good selves.

Any suggestions for vans to look for my criteria is 3500 kg or under ( dealer was down plating that for me)

4 seat belts, electric flush toilet separate shower, 4 birth must contain sofa style seat not just dinnette, full oven and apprx 6.5m for space don't mind fixed bed or not.

The dealer also took that van to weigh bridge for me it was just under 2900kg leaving 600kg payload.

[Jonboymentalhealth]

Oh and of course my budget is 23000 max lol

[Guest Joe90]

A Rapido, preferably a 7087F, galvanised chassis, 4 berth, fixed bed, 4 belted seats, cruise control, cab air con, rear passenger heater, full cooker with oven, American gel coat bodywork, no stupid electric step to go wrong, 30 mpg driven carefully, bombproof 2.8 Jtd engine, no expensive cat either.

 

and not known for leaks ;-)

 

But then I would say that wouldn't I ;-) :D

 

Best van I've ever owned,and I've owned a few !

 

This an example little over your budget ( although this one sold ) but you should be able to find one, and should come a good bit less now that Winters on us.

 

http://www.southernmotorhomes.co.uk/details.asp?ref=3508

[Jonboymentalhealth]

Anyone own an elddis autoquest 180 although a bit more than I want to spend

[globebuster]

I would avoid budget Elddis coachbuilts - In terms of construction no better [and possibly worse] than CI offerings.

 

Do some research on OAL and other forums

 

 

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

Funny I suggested one van that would tick all his boxes, not that I particularly care, but no comment,

 

but good luck with the Elddis garbage though. ;-)

[Jonboymentalhealth]

Sorry I have been looking at your suggestion aswell just looking for as many options as possible

[Brian Kirby]

Jonboymentalhealth - 2014-10-31 7:16 PM....................The dealer also took that van to weigh bridge for me it was just under 2900kg leaving 600kg payload.

Be very careful with this, Jonathan! That figure is potentially misleading.

 

The "industry standard" calculation of payload is to use the Mass in Running Order (MIRO) of the vehicle, and not what you have, which approximates to its Unladen Weight (UW).

 

MIRO is UW plus one gas cylinder, the fresh water tank, and fuel tank all 90% full, plus the driver at a nominal 75kg. This will reduce that "raw" payload figure to around 370kg, which is getting tight.

 

For real-world figures, if the gas locker will take two cylinders, a further 25kg should be deducted, your partner will be with you, so subtract another (dangerous! :-)) 75kg, you will probably have a full tank of fuel, so deduct a further (say) 40kg, allow for a full fresh water tank, so deduct another (say) 10kg, leaving about 250kg of realistic payload. That is tight, and IMO, is unworkable for any more than weekends/short breaks.

 

I would therefore suggest you avoid at all costs downplating anything with an MAM of 3,850kg. They rarely plate vans at 3,850 if they will work at 3,500kg. :-)

 

If you want a realistic payload, I would suggest you look at vans around 6M max long, as length inevitably increases ULW, and so reduces payload. There are a lot of vans of this size, many of which have convertible child beds. Just one warning though. Very few vans indeed, saving those produced in the past couple of years or so, have Isofix fixings for child seats. In their absence, trying to get any kind of child seat (or looking ahead booster cushion), suitably stable on the belted forward facing dinette seats, is a somewhet hit-and-miss process.

 

I'm going to suggest you risk £12 on this book before you buy anything : http://tinyurl.com/8973u2p It is written by motorhomers for motorhomers, and is an absolute treasure-trove of information that should help you through the minefield without expensive mistakes. I have no connection with the publishers - though I still have my copy!

[Jonboymentalhealth]

Brill yhanks

[Derek Uzzell]

Jonboymentalhealth - 2014-10-31 7:16 PM

 

...Any suggestions for vans to look for my criteria is 3500 kg or under ( dealer was down plating that for me)

4 seat belts, electric flush toilet separate shower, 4 birth must contain sofa style seat not just dinnette, full oven and apprx 6.5m for space don't mind fixed bed or not...

 

You might consider an Adria Coral 630 DH that (as far as I can see) meets those criteria.

 

http://www.toddsmotorhomes.co.uk/motorhomes/used/adria/adria_fiat_coral_630_dh_u6717.asp

 

 

Your requirements and your budget mean you’ll probably be looking at vehicles no younger than 2006-built. Adria has a good reputation for build quality and, for a secondhand motorhome 8 years or more old, an Adria is as good a bet as any to be damp-free.

 

The 630 DH model seems to have been constructed on a Ducato 15 LWB 3400kg chassis and some care might need to be taken regarding payload. In 2005 “Which Motorcaravan” magazine quoted 525kg, so it should be OK.

[Jonboymentalhealth]

Just a quick update I have visited dealer and had my deposit refunded

[Brian Kirby]

Disappointing, I know, but I think you have followed the wisest course. Thanks for letting us know. The dealer deserves credit for his honesty, so well done to him. Did you get that book as well? :-D

[Jonboymentalhealth]

It's ordered, have spent the day driving round dealers in Nottingham today, to be fair to the dealer I think he was relieved as can now send it back to the owner.

[Brian Kirby]

Good, I'm sure you'll find it useful, and that you're right about the dealer. Good luck with your search.