StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 There was an interesting video clip on the news recently filmed by a cyclist who feels strongly about cyclist risks and rights. He rides around wearing high viz kit and head cameras etc. He was being overtaqken by a small van and felt the driver was too close to him as he overtook, so he banged on the roof as it passed. The van driver then pulled over sharlply, jumped out, came around the back of the van and then with no further ado thumped the cyclist, who fell to the ground. Comments were made about the van driver assaulting the cyclist but no adverse comment was made about the cyclist banging on the van roof. My sympathies were with the van driver rather than the cyclist, who seemed to me to get his just deserts for doing violence to someone else. Clearly the van was close enough for the cyclist to reach it when he banged on the roof but it didn't look that close to me on the video. The cyclist could have taken the van's number and reported the situation to police but he struck out instead. If you try to take the law into your own hands by using violence towards another road user, then I don't have a lot of sympathy it the situation then escalates and you collect a blow in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 StuartO - 2014-11-05 8:51 AM My sympathies were with the van driver rather than the cyclist, who seemed to me to get his just deserts for doing violence to someone else. If you try to take the law into your own hands by using violence towards another road user, then I don't have a lot of sympathy it the situation then escalates and you collect a blow in return. In a programme not long ago on this subject, a similar situation occurred and the van driver was charged with assault. It seems the law does not define banging on a van roof as " doing violence to someone else ", or " using violence towards another road user ". :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I cycled to work for 2 years, same route. I could bore you to death with examples of poor driving and cycling - none hopefully from me. Can't resist this though. I'm in a designated cycle lane and a van, lwb Transit style, passes me, close enough for me to ' hitch a ride' He's going nowhere as the lights are on red and he slows and stops, 75% in the cycle lane impeding my progress. I knocked on the side of his van, ( not thumped ) and gingerly made my way to his passenger window, I can see the driver, (in his nearside mirror ) looking somewhat confused as to where the knock came from and he's sent his window down. Him, was that you? Me, yes, you were close enough for me to touch your van and you've stopped in a marked cycle lane Him, (honestly), why are you passing on the inside? Me, I'm in a cycle lane Him, **** off Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 malc d - 2014-11-05 9:08 AM StuartO - 2014-11-05 8:51 AM My sympathies were with the van driver rather than the cyclist, who seemed to me to get his just deserts for doing violence to someone else. If you try to take the law into your own hands by using violence towards another road user, then I don't have a lot of sympathy it the situation then escalates and you collect a blow in return. In a programme not long ago on this subject, a similar situation occurred and the van driver was charged with assault. It seems the law does not define banging on a van roof as " doing violence to someone else ", or " using violence towards another road user ". I must say I agree with the law, that a van is not a person. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 malc d - 2014-11-05 9:08 AM In a programme not long ago on this subject, a similar situation occurred and the van driver was charged with assault. It seems the law does not define banging on a van roof as " doing violence to someone else ", or " using violence towards another road user ". :-| Maybe so, but I suspect that particular cyclist might think twice before banging on someone else's roof again! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 StuartO - 2014-11-05 9:37 AM malc d - 2014-11-05 9:08 AM In a programme not long ago on this subject, a similar situation occurred and the van driver was charged with assault. It seems the law does not define banging on a van roof as " doing violence to someone else ", or " using violence towards another road user ". :-| Maybe so, but I suspect that particular cyclist might think twice before banging on someone else's roof again! *-) I dare say he will,..but it still doesn't really make thumping him the right way to go about it... :-S Of cause, in an ideal world all road users would exist on perfect harmony..but we know it's not ideal... The fact is in many cases, on busy, yet narrower roads, it's just not always possible for drivers to pass cyclists as if they were "a small car" .. eg: http://ukcyclelaws.blogspot.co.uk/p/overtaking-cyclists.html ..if they only passed when that degree of clearance was available , some roads would be at a standstill... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 StuartO - 2014-11-05 9:37 AM malc d - 2014-11-05 9:08 AM In a programme not long ago on this subject, a similar situation occurred and the van driver was charged with assault. It seems the law does not define banging on a van roof as " doing violence to someone else ", or " using violence towards another road user ". :-| Maybe so, but I suspect that particular cyclist might think twice before banging on someone else's roof again! *-) But, likewise, a van driver might think twice before thumping a cyclist if he were fined £100 each time. I also saw on TV yesterday that there is now a voluntary scheme around London for lorry drivers to go on a cycling course so they get a better understanding of the problems cyclists have, and the drivers have responded very favourably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'd gladly slap some of them ebike thugs .. Hogging the pavements and roads .. Too lazy to peddle .. What next cars that you don't have to change gear in ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 malc d - 2014-11-05 10:21 AM ....But, likewise, a van driver might think twice before thumping a cyclist if he were fined £100 each time. I also saw on TV yesterday that there is now a voluntary scheme around London for lorry drivers to go on a cycling course so they get a better understanding of the problems cyclists have, and the drivers have responded very favourably. If prosecutions always followed such incidents and penalties always had deterent effect, maybe so. I doubt if that happens. People who bang the roofs of vehicles to make their point are probably committing an offence of some sort too. I'm not in favour of van drivers punching people to assert their wishes but I'm not in favour of self-appointed cycling vigilanties either. I saw the report of the change of attitude among those lorry drivers; they were more appreciative of the need which a cyclist has to "command the lane" to guard his/her personal safety zone on the road, even if it does hold everyone else up when they do it. It was interesting to see that at least some of the lorry drivers seemed genuinely to change their attitude but I can;t see an education campaign of that sort being a silver bullet to solve the problem of cycling fatalities and serious injuries on our roads. Encouraging people to take exercise is good and so is using a bicycle as a way of taking exercise is also good. Whether it is sensible to try to accomodate cyclists on all our busy roads by encouraging other road users to give them enough time and space for their safety needs is another matter. Giving cyclists somewhere other than busy roads to do their riding on strikes me as a better plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Since only Stuart has see the video clip, he is better placed to judge then me. However, being "shaved" while riding a bike is not an uncommon experience, and it is not uncommon for cyclists who feel threatened to smack the vehicle to warn the driver away. It is a risky ploy, as taking one hand from the handlebars while in close confines to a vehicle risks some loss of control. So, maybe both are aggressive idiots. But, many drivers are inconsiderate of cyclists, and seem to expect bicycles to run on rails, notwithstanding road conditions, wind, etc. Many drivers happily overtake cycles while slowing to turn left, and then turn left across the cyclist's path. A nephew was knocked off a injured by one such. Others fling doors open. I have experienced this. Others do not leave space for the cyclist to negotiate parked vehicles. It goes on. Generally, falling off a bike hurts. You can't fall off a van or a car, so the relative risks are very different. For the driver, as reported, to respond as he did is extreme, and depicts a total loss of self control. It is debatable whether people with such voilent tendencies should be allowed to drive. What other voilent acts is that driver liable to commit at the wheel? So, without seeing the clip, and based only on Stuart's description, whereas the cyclist may have been unwise, the driver deserves to be charged with ABH, and would seem to have little that he could claim in mitigation. If the cyclist struck the van so hard as to damage it, the cyclist deserves to be charged with causing malicious damage, but could presumably claim fear for his safety in mitigation. 80/20 in favour of the cyclist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I think, Brian, that this may be the 'clip' to which Stuart is referring:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29893277 At the end of it there is footage, taken by a cyclist 'armed' with a helmet camaera, of an incident similar to the one described. It also, incidentally(!) is mainly to do with 'educating' lorry drivers -- which malc d mentioned above. Cheers, Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Yes, that was the news item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 StuartO - 2014-11-05 12:51 PM Encouraging people to take exercise is good and so is using a bicycle as a way of taking exercise is also good. Whether it is sensible to try to accomodate cyclists on all our busy roads by encouraging other road users to give them enough time and space for their safety needs is another matter. Giving cyclists somewhere other than busy roads to do their riding on strikes me as a better plan. I couldn't agree more, Stuart - motorised traffic and cyclists don't mix -- keep them separate - everywhere! I know, an impossibility in this crowded little Island , with its out-dated transport infrastructure -- I think horse-riders and horse-drawn carriages ought also to be similarly divided off from infernal combustion- engined vehicles -- but it ain't going to happen any time soon! My biggest gripe concerning cyclists is that when I'm minding my own business, strolling along a canal bank, or fishing (legally) on the bank of said canal and they swoop silently (doesn't anyone use a bicycle bell anymore?) from (apparently) nowhere! Not to mention pavement menaces, light jumpers, those who ignore pedestrian crossings, etc.,etc.,!!! Rant over (for now!) >:-) Colin. P.S. And.............THEY DON'T PAY ROAD TAX ON THEIR BLOODY BICYCLES!! (Tongue firmly in cheek!) C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-11-05 2:34 PM P.S. And.............THEY DON'T PAY ROAD TAX!! (Tongue firmly in cheek!) C. It seems that you are assuming that no cyclists own cars. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 malc d - 2014-11-05 2:44 PM It seems that you are assuming that no cyclists own cars. ;-) Thanks for the prompt -- smarty-pants! :D Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 I was walking the dog down the country lane near our house when I heard an unfamiliar electronic-sounding ping. So I reached for my phone and was about to start working out whether and what sort of notification I had received when a cyclist whooshed past, causing me considerable surprise. I didn't quite mess my pants but it crtainly made me start. The ping was what cyclists do these days instead of ringing a proper bicycle bell, which would presumbaly attract too much windage if fitted to modern handlebars. Most of the cyclists who use the Lane don't ping at all, so you just get the whoosh. Our Council spent over £200,000 recently to widen the pavement on half a mile of main road (by slicing a metre or so off the road carriageway) to allow cyclists to share it with (very scarce) pedestrians, in order to get to the entrance to our Lane, where they also spent a few more pounds filling in some of the potholes. We now officially have a Cycleway. And the word got around quickly, so we get quite a few cyclists - although relatively few "pingers". hence I suppose my confusion with my IPhone noises when I finally got pinged at. Most of them sneak up on you silently and frighten you to death when they suddenly pass at speed. Our dogs started chasing them, trying to nip at their ankles for invading "her" lane and I had to take steps to discourage this behaviour. Some of the cyclists look outraged that there should be a dog loose on "their" Cycleway, oblivious to the fact that for hundreds of years this Lane was a Bridleway and Footpath (eventually a Private Road) before it was promoted to become a Cycleway. I have trained our dog to ignore cyclists now, rather than have to put her on the lead on the Lane. I'm not sure how I'm going to cope with the non-pinging majority of cyclists, exercising their freedoms while the dog and I are trying to exercise ours. Will it be OK for me to bash them on their helmets as they pass too close? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamblingAlex Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-11-05 2:34 PM StuartO - 2014-11-05 12:51 PM Encouraging people to take exercise is good and so is using a bicycle as a way of taking exercise is also good. Whether it is sensible to try to accomodate cyclists on all our busy roads by encouraging other road users to give them enough time and space for their safety needs is another matter. Giving cyclists somewhere other than busy roads to do their riding on strikes me as a better plan. I couldn't agree more, Stuart - motorised traffic and cyclists don't mix -- keep them separate - everywhere! I know, an impossibility in this crowded little Island , with its out-dated transport infrastructure -- I think horse-riders and horse-drawn carriages ought also to be similarly divided off from infernal combustion- engined vehicles -- but it ain't going to happen any time soon! My biggest gripe concerning cyclists is that when I'm minding my own business, strolling along a canal bank, or fishing (legally) on the bank of said canal and they swoop silently (doesn't anyone use a bicycle bell anymore?) from (apparently) nowhere! Not to mention pavement menaces, light jumpers, those who ignore pedestrian crossings, etc.,etc.,!!! Rant over (for now!) >:-) Colin. P.S. And.............THEY DON'T PAY ROAD TAX ON THEIR BLOODY BICYCLES!! (Tongue firmly in cheek!) C. You don't pay road tax either ;) You pay vehicle excise duty and as cycles don't give out any emissions, they don't have to pay it. Also, this duty doesn't go to the roads and cyclists pay council tax etc which does go towards the upkeep of roads, so they have every right to be on them too. However, as a cyclist and a driver I find fault with both sides and have often had to bang on a car/van to let them know I'm there. Not particularly aggressively though and I'm aware I'm not as visible so don't expect everyone to have seen me. I've had some near misses with cyclists while driving and there does seem to be an attitude of ownership with some cyclists. I had one the other day cycling towards me on the wrong side of the road, and I see plenty looking at their phones while cycling and listening to music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Around here, it seems that once you get your pension..........you also get a fetish for Lycra and the need to ride a bike :-S ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Symbol Owner - 2014-11-05 2:34 PM P.S. And.............THEY DON'T PAY ROAD TAX ON THEIR BLOODY BICYCLES!! (Tongue firmly in cheek!) C. Neither do owners of older cars or cars with low emissions. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 RamblingAlex - 2014-11-05 3:15 PM You don't pay road tax either ;) You pay vehicle excise duty and as cycles don't give out any emissions, they don't have to pay it. Also, this duty doesn't go to the roads and cyclists pay council tax etc which does go towards the upkeep of roads, so they have every right to be on them too. As I tried to infer, Alex, I was not being serious -- this was what I was harking back to:- http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/emma-way-tweeted-bloody-cyclists-2808248 Cheers, Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 StuartO - 2014-11-05 2:56 PM................I'm not sure how I'm going to cope with the non-pinging majority of cyclists, exercising their freedoms while the dog and I are trying to exercise ours. Will it be OK for me to bash them on their helmets as they pass too close? Of course not. This is a bit obvious, but there is quite a difference between "bashing" someone on the helmet, and banging on an inanimate vehicle to warn it away. How will you cope? You will adjust to change, as we all have to. Look on the bright side, it is reacting flexibly to new ideas and customs that keeps us young! :-) I would also check the official status of said lane, since if it was a bridleway it probably still is, even if now formally designated a cycleway. AFAIK (happy to be corrected) a cycleway is merely a route usable by cyclists, and can form a part of a footway, road, bridleway, green way etc. But, under the 1968 Countryside Act, a designated bridleway is usable also by cyclists (though it does not have to be maintained for the purpose) and pedestrians. I am always reluctant to "ping" pedestrians, usually resorting to slowing and making some other noise (change gear, or flick let a brake lever) to attract attention, because the ping seems a bit rude. The Germans and the Dutch, OTOH, seem happy to push and ping, and no-one seems the slightest worried. I guess it is what one has grown up with. BTW, if you had a bike, you'd know that they come with those bells as standard, and the louder variety are now difficult to obtain. These routes are to be shared between all the categories of traffic entitled to use them. Mutual respect, and reasonable alertness, by all users, is required. If you think bikes a problem, we have racehorses around here, and meeting one of these on a narrow path is in a quite different league, especially when, as is far too often the case, the path is not a bridleway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-11-05 3:50 PM I am always reluctant to "ping" pedestrians, usually resorting to slowing and making some other noise (change gear, or flick let a brake lever) to attract attention, because the ping seems a bit rude. The trouble with ringing a bell, or pinging, is that it can be misinterpreted. You may ping to let someone know you are coming, but they may think you are telling them to get out of the way ! I usually get round it by pinging from some distance away so that they have plenty of notice that I'm approaching. Usually seems to be acceptable. Not had anyone assault me yet. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Forgive me if I have touched a sore spot Brian, my last post, although based on truth, was written with tongue slightly in cheek. I wasn't serious about bashing helmets and I have already said that I don't advocate van drivers thumping everyone they disapprove of - it's only in the case of over-assertive, self-appointed vigilantes that might I excuse them, and then only might! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 As a van driver myself ( not white must admit ) I think it's our right to hit who we want .. This may include school kids pratting about or old folk taking too long to cross the road . Cyclists get the special treatment from me , the old nudge em off the road .. One day people will thank me for my services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 antony1969 - 2014-11-05 4:29 PM As a van driver myself ( not white must admit ) I think it's our right to hit who we want .. This may include school kids pratting about or old folk taking too long to cross the road . Cyclists get the special treatment from me , the old nudge em off the road .. One day people will thank me for my services ........ one day you'll be one of the " old folk taking too long to cross the road " ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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